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yankeesouth
Guest
Sure…you don’t have to be Catholic to get to Heaven, but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.
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yankeesouth
Guest
So there are exceptions?
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Fauken
Guest
I think it’s more like he’s denying Feeneyism.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
It’s like those people who say “Not MY President”.
Jesus is the one and only God.
And we don’t make God in the image we want him to be.
We strive to understand God as he is, knowing that as humans on earth our understanding will always be limited and have gaps, but we do our best.
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GLam1761
Guest
WE are the Pillar and Support of the Truth(1 Tim 3:15), the
church of the Living God!! BUT we build ON the teachings of
the Catechism, not live UNDER the authority, if you get my
drift. We, who have knowledge of the teachings of the Church,
specifically the Catechism, have a FORMED CONSCIENCE and
able to discern what is Okay to do and what is Not!! And even
the Catechism says and Christ Himself said “whatever is not
of Faith(a good conscience) is Sin” Rom. 14:23
church of the Living God!! BUT we build ON the teachings of
the Catechism, not live UNDER the authority, if you get my
drift. We, who have knowledge of the teachings of the Church,
specifically the Catechism, have a FORMED CONSCIENCE and
able to discern what is Okay to do and what is Not!! And even
the Catechism says and Christ Himself said “whatever is not
of Faith(a good conscience) is Sin” Rom. 14:23
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phil3
Guest
God, Jesus, and the Holy spirit are the one and only God
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Gorgias
Guest
No, there aren’t. All who are saved, are saved through the Church. (That is, through the grace of Christ, distributed through the Church.)
The subject of the sentence is “salvation”, not “persons”. So, there’s no exception to the nature of salvation. (Persons – regardless of religious affiliation – can attain to that salvation, albeit through a variety of means, some of which have the appearance of ‘exceptions’.)
Does that help?
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yankeesouth
Guest
I asked the question because the op seems to still be under the impression that their are exceptions and I wanted clarification to help him/her.
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Crusader13
New member
Unfortunately there is a misunderstanding as to what “salvation outside the Church” means. I’ve often heard people insist that everyone can be saved/will be saved, even if they deny Jesus Christ, refuse to be baptized and outright reject the message of the Gospel, simply because they are good individuals and are seeking God in their own way.
So the idea that atheists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, JW’s, and any other non-Catholic, can be saved. However, it’s not their own understanding or beliefs that save them, but instead it’s Jesus Christ, through the graces of the Catholic Church that actually save them, even if they refuse to believe it.
I don’t believe this is a correct understanding, but instead pushes a false belief that everyone can be saved by simply remaining outside of the Church and following God in whatever way suits them best.
So the idea that atheists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, JW’s, and any other non-Catholic, can be saved. However, it’s not their own understanding or beliefs that save them, but instead it’s Jesus Christ, through the graces of the Catholic Church that actually save them, even if they refuse to believe it.
I don’t believe this is a correct understanding, but instead pushes a false belief that everyone can be saved by simply remaining outside of the Church and following God in whatever way suits them best.
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stpurl
Guest
Here’s the thing: Nobody said that a great sinner generally has MORE of a chance of heaven than a good person (non-Christian or Christian) who fears the Lord etc. You said it but people on here didn’t.
What is true is that a great sinner who, at the time of death or before, truly repents his or her sins and begs God’s forgiveness has as MUCH chance at heaven as a ‘good person’ who has only had venial sins and at death begs God’s forgiveness.
We don’t ‘earn heaven’ by deeds. We merit heaven through grace, acceptance of God’s free gift, and in acceptance of the grace our cooperation with God in doing His will by doing good deeds; these are a RESULT of our acceptance, and not a ‘toll’. Good deeds are our contributions, through our thoughts, words, and actions, of our cooperation with God in being righteous. They aren’t ‘awards’ or brownie points whereby somebody in heaven says, “I did 1000 good deeds in life, and this other person only did 800”.
What is true is that a great sinner who, at the time of death or before, truly repents his or her sins and begs God’s forgiveness has as MUCH chance at heaven as a ‘good person’ who has only had venial sins and at death begs God’s forgiveness.
We don’t ‘earn heaven’ by deeds. We merit heaven through grace, acceptance of God’s free gift, and in acceptance of the grace our cooperation with God in doing His will by doing good deeds; these are a RESULT of our acceptance, and not a ‘toll’. Good deeds are our contributions, through our thoughts, words, and actions, of our cooperation with God in being righteous. They aren’t ‘awards’ or brownie points whereby somebody in heaven says, “I did 1000 good deeds in life, and this other person only did 800”.
Crusader13
New member
It’s exactly this sort of statement that causes confusion. So a “variety of means” would mean what?
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Magnanimity
Guest
Good for you @QwertyGirl, you really seem to be sticking to your conscience on this one. And being keenly attentive to one’s own conscience is supremely important. John Henry Newman once said that conscience is “the primordial Vicar of Christ.” I hope that you stay attentive to your beliefs that surely something is wrong with the interpretations you’re getting above. Whether one is reading Matthew chapter 7 or chapter 25, the same language is used–many will come to me and say “Lord?”
But, you seem to be certain on beginning the interpretation of these and any other passages on the firm belief that God is a loving parent. If that is your starting point, and you ardently stick to it, you won’t go wrong. St. John said that “God is love.” I don’t know how he could have been any plainer about the nature of God. So, whatever those passages are trying to teach, a belief that God is a vindictive and judgmental parent who would casually allow you to ruin yourself, ain’t it. If that’s how a person sees God, that person has a looooong way to go in the spiritual journey.
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phil3
Guest
Watch this video. There is much to learn from it.
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Gorgias
Guest
Invincible ignorance, etc.
I think that the best way to explain it is that, if you misunderstand what EENS means, then your misunderstanding does have ‘exceptions’. More precisely, the way that a non-Christian (and, to an extent, a non-Catholic Christian) is saved is different than the way that a Catholic is saved (i.e., baptism, living a life of virtue, with access to the sacraments for reception of Christ’s grace, and dying in a state of grace).
But, if you understand EENS properly, then there are no exceptions – all salvation comes from the Church.
It’s close, up until “even if they refuse to believe it”. The Church does teach that “it’s not their own understanding … it’s Christ through the graces of the Church”, but with one big caveat: if they know that the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation, and yet they refuse to enter into it, then they cannot be saved.
Yes, but even this statement can set a non-Catholic Christian’s hair on fire. When they hear “we merit heaven”, they think we mean that we merit it on our own personal merits – that is, precisely that you’re saying “we really do earn heaven on our own”. What we’re really saying is that this merit is Christ’s merit – we’ve just cooperated with Him, and share in the glory He wishes us to inherit.
Unless, of course, she doesn’t believe in Jesus.
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Magnanimity
Guest
Looks to me @Gorgias that Qwerty is insistent that God is loving and merciful and that God would never be vindictive, hateful, petty. She couldn’t be any more correct about that.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
God is very merciful but his mercy is tempered with justice.
Qwerty was disavowing a direct quotation of our Lord from sacred Scripture - Matthew 7:21-23, which I have pasted below. Cherry-picking Scripture and saying, “Oh I don’t believe Jesus ever said such a thing” because you personally don’t like it is not consistent with Catholic teaching.
(Qwerty isn’t Catholic, but we try to give appropriate Catholic answers on this forum for those who are interested in knowing what the Church actually teaches and not what some random person posting thinks. )
Qwerty was disavowing a direct quotation of our Lord from sacred Scripture - Matthew 7:21-23, which I have pasted below. Cherry-picking Scripture and saying, “Oh I don’t believe Jesus ever said such a thing” because you personally don’t like it is not consistent with Catholic teaching.
(Qwerty isn’t Catholic, but we try to give appropriate Catholic answers on this forum for those who are interested in knowing what the Church actually teaches and not what some random person posting thinks. )
It’s highly likely that a lot of people who ignored the Lord throughout their entire lives may well try to present themselves as his friends in the last act when the chips are down. What the Lord chooses to do in each individual case is up to him, but we should not presume that we can just blithely ignore God our whole lives and go around sinning and then expect to be saved because God is so loving. Presumption is a sin on top of the sins we’re assuming will just be forgiven.
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Magnanimity
Guest
I believe our sacred writings phrase it differently, “Give thanks to the LORD, who is good, whose love endures forever;” -1 Chron 16:34; and “Praise the LORD, for he is good; for his mercy endures forever; Praise the God of gods; for his mercy endures forever; Praise the Lord of lords; for his mercy endures forever;” etc, etc for the rest of Psalm 136
Maybe you’re right. I can’t speak for Qwerty nor does she need me too. But I understood her to be starting with what her conscience confirms within her that God must be (at least as good as a decent earthly father) and filtering the interpretations thru that filter within her conscience. That’s why I praised her inclinations.
One must begin with what the church has consistently taught about the nature of God, which aligns well with the conscience within us. Namely, that God is Love, that his mercy endures forever, that God is an all-good Father, etc. It seemed plain to me that what Qwerty was objecting to was a god who engages us on a transactional level, whose love is conditional, who would possibly treat his children worse than a decent earthly father would treat his own. If I interpreted her correctly, then I stand behind her. The image of God as vindictive, petty, conditionally loving and transactional is so bizarrely off-base that it cannot be admitted within the realm of possible Catholic understandings of God. That god can fit within the pantheon of the Greek Gods maybe, but not that of the church. Qwerty’s starting point is correct. She appears to be rejecting rather hideous presentations of divinity.
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Neithan
Guest
Salvation is Jesus Christ: God’s incarnate humanity. Our eternal destiny is to share in the divine life, the source of existence. What is the church? It is the mystical body of Christ, the extension of divine life in human beings. As He said in the Gospel of John, He is the vine, and we are the branches.
If we are not in the church, then we are not saved, and our eternal destiny is lost, though we are not annihilated and will experience this eternal loss.
What it means to be in the church has developed substantially since medieval times. It does not mean the same thing as being in formal communion with the bishop of Rome. It is a mystical and invisible reality of supernatural grace that we cannot entirely see; though the visible church is a visible sign, it is not a guarantee.
If we are not in the church, then we are not saved, and our eternal destiny is lost, though we are not annihilated and will experience this eternal loss.
What it means to be in the church has developed substantially since medieval times. It does not mean the same thing as being in formal communion with the bishop of Rome. It is a mystical and invisible reality of supernatural grace that we cannot entirely see; though the visible church is a visible sign, it is not a guarantee.
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Magnanimity
Guest
Other than the paragraph of yours that I quote below @Neithan, I quite agree with everything that you say.
St Augustine, pray for us! You taught the church so much, but this doctrine of yours articulated above continues its lamentable stranglehold on too many members of Christ’s body.
I will never cease to be amazed how often Augustinianism passes itself off as Catholicism.
St Augustine, pray for us! You taught the church so much, but this doctrine of yours articulated above continues its lamentable stranglehold on too many members of Christ’s body.
Crusader13
New member
There is a difference in having never heard about Jesus and his plan for salvation, as opposed to having heard it, but rejecting it.
The problem is many use this as a loophole to give people an out for being saved, while not becoming Catholic. They equate “knowing” with “believing”, so if they don’t believe that the Church is necessary, then they have invincible ignorance and will probably be saved.
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