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ralphinal
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What sin does a new born commit?
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LutheranDK
Guest
Before you do, let’s just get one thing straight:
I do not believe INNOCENT humans will go to hell. I believe that humans tainted with original sin will go to hell, if they’re not saved by Jesus.
First of all: What is a “figurative” hell?
Secondly: The popular image of hell as some kind of gigantic medieval torture chamber is one that carries very little weight with me. The imagery in the Bible concerning hell is diverse, and self-contradictory if taken literally.
The point is, that hell is eternity under God’s wrath - and it is something which we should avoid at ANY cost - ANY!
Richard Dawkins and his host of militant atheists might think so, and probably do. Anyone with half a brain, and eyes to observe what’s going on around them, however, can determine that this is not the case. Christians are involved with charity work that aids HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people throughout the world, regardless of their religious beliefs!
(not to mention keeping Europe from descending into complete barbarism after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire)
I don’t know that ANY person I meet will go to hell, because I don’t know when that person will die, and ergo, I do not know whether the person will be saved before he/she dies.
I’m not going to dignify that insult with a response, and you’re THIS close to making my ignore-list for insinuating like that
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LutheranDK
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“We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners.”
Plus, you’re not talking only about newborns, are you?
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ralphinal
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Not at first, but since you asked when age of reason is (I would say it is too nebulous a concept and varies from child to child), I decided to simplify the discussion.
If it is true that ALL have sinned, it means that ALL have actively chosen to disobey God. What sin did new born babies chose to commit?
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Le_Cracquere
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Depends on what one means by “children,” I guess, and where one takes that mysterious “age of reason” to lie. I’d set it earlier than a lot of people on this list.
And I still retain fairly clear memories of childhood: if many of my young schoolmates weren’t going to hell, then there is no justice as mortal man understands the term! For those who have forgotten being children or dealing with them as peers: not long after learning to walk & talk, their default mode tends toward evil of the most bestial degree (myself not excluded), and is only checked by the sort of strenuous rearing & discipline that hasn’t been in style for generations. And often, not even that helps much.
And so, I lean against the idea w/r/t infants and most toddlers, who are truly pre-conscious in many important ways. For older children, my endorsement of the idea tends to correlate with the clarity of my memories, or with the recentness of my last wait in the grocery checkout line.
And I still retain fairly clear memories of childhood: if many of my young schoolmates weren’t going to hell, then there is no justice as mortal man understands the term! For those who have forgotten being children or dealing with them as peers: not long after learning to walk & talk, their default mode tends toward evil of the most bestial degree (myself not excluded), and is only checked by the sort of strenuous rearing & discipline that hasn’t been in style for generations. And often, not even that helps much.
And so, I lean against the idea w/r/t infants and most toddlers, who are truly pre-conscious in many important ways. For older children, my endorsement of the idea tends to correlate with the clarity of my memories, or with the recentness of my last wait in the grocery checkout line.
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LutheranDK
Guest
Yes, I have! And I’m really starting to dislike the way you address me, simply because I refuse to bend the truth to what’s politically correct.
Feel free to disagree with me, but you need to learn how to maintain a decent tone even towards those you disagree with.
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LutheranDK
Guest
See the quote.
We sin because sin is in our nature. It is what separates us from God - it is the curse we inherited from Adam and Eve. So sin is not primarily our sinful acts - they are the symptoms of the disease.
Now, what are your criteria for when someone reaches “the age of reason”, and what about sinful acts before that? Were they not sins at all?
What I mean is:
- Would it not be a sin for a 5-year old to steal, while it would be for a 10-year old?
(please note that I do not “accuse” you of saying that it’s allowed for a 5-year old to steal…)
And furthermore: You must have some kind of age-range in which you believe the ascencion to “age of reason” takes place? It is 10-12? Those “horrible” teenage-years when kids SERIOUSLY stop being “cute” and sometimes are a pain in the … ?
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Agripa
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Its clear then you fear real debate and if you ignore me, you only admit as much.Before you do, let’s just get one thing straight:
I do not believe INNOCENT humans will go to hell. I believe that humans tainted with original sin will go to hell, if they’re not saved by Jesus.
Wow! So babies are born with Original Sin, right?? And if they are not baptised, they go to hell, Right??
First of all: What is a “figurative” hell? Lets say its a place where God is not.
Secondly: The popular image of hell as some kind of gigantic medieval torture chamber is one that carries very little weight with me. The imagery in the Bible concerning hell is diverse, and self-contradictory if taken literally.
The point is, that hell is eternity under God’s wrath - and it is something which we should avoid at ANY cost - ANY! And you actually beleive unbaptised babies are going to suffer the wrath of God if not baptised. Just admit you think that way.
Richard Dawkins and his host of militant atheists might think so, and probably do. Anyone with half a brain, and eyes to observe what’s going on around them, however, can determine that this is not the case. Christians are involved with charity work that aids HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people throughout the world, regardless of their religious beliefs! Chritians and other zealots use charity to prostelitize , that’s the real aim.
(not to mention keeping Europe from descending into complete barbarism after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire) Now you touch on some real interesting stuff which I would love to debate: Rome was dying and used a growing sect of Jews to propell itself out of its decline. Had Christianity not been adopted by Constantine, Christianity would have gone the way of countless sects. Christianity is simply like any other influence we still hold from ancient Rome: Its as entwined with us today just like plumbing techniques, building and engineering concepts, architectural patterns, mythologies, etc. In fact, you will find a stunning amount of similarities in your outdated faith beleifs that any self respecting Roman citizen held in his day, including punishment in the afterlife, worship of mothers, valuing virginity, etc.
I don’t know that ANY person I meet will go to hell, because I don’t know when that person will die, and ergo, I do not know whether the person will be saved before he/she dies.
Thats clearly a sophist’s answer.
I’m not going to dignify that insult with a response, and you’re THIS close to making my ignore-list for insinuating like that
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heathernoel
Guest
I am not the only one that uses these forums for whom this is a “way too close to home” subject.
I have understood, even reached out, for other points of view because there’s not a moment that goes by that I don’t think about, miss, and yearn for my sons. They were both 20 weeks along…one was still for reasons unknown, and the other was anencephalic.
You mean to tell me that my children (our first son wasn’t baptized…in all the confusion, we forgot
…our second was baptized upon birth…unfortunately, we had enough practice to remember) are experiencing God’s wrath? Really?
***I do not believe INNOCENT humans will go to hell. I believe that humans tainted with original sin will go to hell, if they’re not saved by Jesus.
We are all born with original sin. Our Blessed Mother, St. John the Baptist (arguably), and Jesus Himself being the exceptions.
To put a human face to this discussion, I give you my sons, Marshall Jacob and Jonah Michael. I do not wish to use them for any other reason than to remind you that these ARE His children, and No God of anyone I know believes these two are in Hell, even purgatory. These are innocent children. (someone will inevitably check my facts thinking I’m doing something wrong…just so y’all know, the date on the camera was always wrong…Marshall was born March 30, 08, and Jonah April 26th, 09).
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Respectfully yours,
Heather
I have understood, even reached out, for other points of view because there’s not a moment that goes by that I don’t think about, miss, and yearn for my sons. They were both 20 weeks along…one was still for reasons unknown, and the other was anencephalic.
You mean to tell me that my children (our first son wasn’t baptized…in all the confusion, we forgot
…our second was baptized upon birth…unfortunately, we had enough practice to remember) are experiencing God’s wrath? Really?***I do not believe INNOCENT humans will go to hell. I believe that humans tainted with original sin will go to hell, if they’re not saved by Jesus.
We are all born with original sin. Our Blessed Mother, St. John the Baptist (arguably), and Jesus Himself being the exceptions.
To put a human face to this discussion, I give you my sons, Marshall Jacob and Jonah Michael. I do not wish to use them for any other reason than to remind you that these ARE His children, and No God of anyone I know believes these two are in Hell, even purgatory. These are innocent children. (someone will inevitably check my facts thinking I’m doing something wrong…just so y’all know, the date on the camera was always wrong…Marshall was born March 30, 08, and Jonah April 26th, 09).
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
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Respectfully yours,
Heather
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Agripa
Guest
You make a powerful argument and my heart goes out to you indeed, but sadly the likes of zealots are not swayed by empathy but rather they bind themselves to blind adherance to ancient beleifs.I am not the only one that uses these forums for whom this is a “way too close to home” subject.
I have understood, even reached out, for other points of view because there’s not a moment that goes by that I don’t think about, miss, and yearn for my sons. They were both 20 weeks along…one was still for reasons unknown, and the other was anencephalic.
You mean to tell me that my children (our first son wasn’t baptized…in all the confusion, we forgot
***I do not believe INNOCENT humans will go to hell. I believe that humans tainted with original sin will go to hell, if they’re not saved by Jesus.
We are all born with original sin. Our Blessed Mother, St. John the Baptist (arguably), and Jesus Himself being the exceptions.
To put a human face to this discussion, I give you my sons, Marshall Jacob and Jonah Michael. I do not wish to use them for any other reason than to remind you that these ARE His children, and No God of anyone I know believes these two are in Hell, even purgatory. These are innocent children.
Respectfully yours,
Heather
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ralphinal
Guest
Going backwards, I tend to lean towards a 5-8 year old age of reason. It just seems like by 5, most kids can understand right and wrong.
Stealing is stealing. The issue is one of culpability and understanding. A three year old may not understand that it is a sin, though they do it. A five year old may not understand it is a sin, but they typically know it is wrong to take someone’s stuff. A ten year old should know WHY as well.
I think that we need to understand what a sin is. In Catholic thought, a sin is an act that is in opposition to God’s law. This act, if it is of serious nature, we know it is seriously against God’s law, and we freely choose it, it is a mortal sin. Otherwise it is venial.
But, for these discussions, perhaps we should just stick to sin being against God’s law and we choose to commit it.
The verse you quoted does not say that all have sinful natures but that all have sinned. That means new born babies have sinned. What sin did they commit?
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LutheranDK
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Why do I need to repeat myself? Sin separates from God. There’s your answer.
Well, that’s what hell is
Or rather: Hell is being with God without being reconciled with God.
I freely admit that. The fact that I don’t like that thought (to say the least!) is another matter entirely
LOL - you go right on believing that, mate… So Christians cannot do any good deed out of selfless love for their fellow man, but MUST have some kind of ulterior motive, because you don’t like us, and want to find any reason you can to accuse us of being evil?
"Now you touch on some real interesting stuff which I would love to debate:
Sure - open another thread instead of derailing this one…
No, it is the logical conclusion from my earlier statements. You know - logic? The basis of civilized discussion amongst civilized people?
LOL - what kind of infantile behavior is this?
“If you won’t accept being accused of being worse than Hitler, it’s because you fear my debate skills [which actually leave **a lot to be desired!] PFFFFTTT!”
It’s clear that you’re interested in spewing filth, and not debating. Alright, fine. See if some of the others want to do that with you. I certainly won’t.
So there’s no reason for you to respond to this post…I’m putting you on “ignore”
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heathernoel
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For the sake of my sanity, could you please point me to Scriptural proof of this? I’m not being sarcastic, but as you might imagine, I do want to know where my kids are. I KNOW where I KNOW they are…but I also KNEW at one point I would be a Methodist my whole life. I was wrong.
TIA,
Heather
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Agripa
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Some on this thread are in need of serious help and are no better than any other religious fanatic that brings pain and misery to this world.
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LutheranDK
Guest
So, just to get this straight, you’d say that a 3-year old will not go to hell, but a 5-year old might?
I see your point, but I don’t agree with it. Stealing is stealing, and it’s a sin. To say that only the actions we have full knowledge of are sins, is…problematic at best, I think.
We agree this far
And the sinfulness of the act should therefore be determined not by the culprit, but by the act itself, whether or not it is in accordance with the will of God.
I agree - but with this important addition:
We choose to commit it, because our nature is tainted. We are sinners by nature - not by choice primarily.
sigh
Point taken
But my point still stands - that original sin separates us from God - and that our sinful nature is the reason why we commit the conscious sins.
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LutheranDK
Guest
The answer that was so mockingly called a “sophist’s answer” is what I am going to stick with here. Not because it’s an easy way out of a debate I don’t like (because it isn’t!), but because I believe it to be true.For the sake of my sanity, could you please point me to Scriptural proof of this? I’m not being sarcastic, but as you might imagine, I do want to know where my kids are. I KNOW where I KNOW they are…but I also KNEW at one point I would be a Methodist my whole life. I was wrong.
TIA,
Heather
It follows from what Scripture teaches us - that we are sinners by nature, and that sin separates us from God.
I find no exemption due to age in the Scriptures (although I wish that I could…).
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ralphinal
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Both might
If we do not fully know, through no fault of our own, it reduces culpability. The problem is that at some point, we are required to have developed a properly formed conscience. After all, ignorance of the law is no defense.
Correct, otherwise we will say we never sinWe agree this far
And the sinfulness of the act should therefore be determined not by the culprit, but by the act itself, whether or not it is in accordance with the will of God.
Yes and no. Our sinful nature is a BIG part, but we are not animals ruled only by nature.
Agreed about Original sin. However, we must ask if we are damned for sins because we are human and able to sin or because we are willing to choose sin over Godsigh
Point taken
But my point still stands - that original sin separates us from God - and that our sinful nature is the reason why we commit the conscious sins.
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Agripa
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What many devout Chistians won’t admit since it does not line up with whatever the Bible states or with what their religious authorities tell them is that “Original Sin” is the pleasure by which we enter the world - i.e. the sex act.
Christians seem to have a real hang up with sex and since all must get “pro-created”, that means we are all tainted with Original Sin, i.e. eating the fruit of forbidden knowledge meant carnal knowledge.
Sadly, the hang up seems to emanate most heavily from Paul who had real issues with sex. Sigh!!
Christians seem to have a real hang up with sex and since all must get “pro-created”, that means we are all tainted with Original Sin, i.e. eating the fruit of forbidden knowledge meant carnal knowledge.
Sadly, the hang up seems to emanate most heavily from Paul who had real issues with sex. Sigh!!
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ralphinal
Guest
The first sin of Adam and Eve was not sex. It was a willingness to disobey God. We inherit that disposition, as well as the curses stemming from it.What many devout Chistians won’t admit since it does not line up with whatever the Bible states or with what their religious authorities tell them is that “Original Sin” is the pleasure by which we enter the world - i.e. the sex act.
Christians seem to have a real hang up with sex and since all must get “pro-created”, that means we are all tainted with Original Sin, i.e. eating the fruit of forbidden knowledge meant carnal knowledge.
Sadly, the hang up seems to emanate most heavily from Paul who had real issues with sex. Sigh!!
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Agripa
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That does not explain assigning guilt to mere infants. What is inhereted is the base instinct which is sex and the pleasure and emotions it brings with the act. Babies come from sexual unions and that is precisely why in the Christ story, He did not.
Nor, apprently, did his mother.
But this raises the natural question, if sex within marriage is really good, wholesome and surely a gift of Life from God, why couldn’t Jesus be born of the most wonderful gift of all - procreation and why couldnt Mary? Again, its the hang-up Christians seem to have with sex.
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