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teancum79
Guest
I’m all for the more or less ball shape of the earth.
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vocatio
Guest
teancum79
You’re not engaging in rational talk here. You sound like you’re really on a rant. Not everybody here is out to get you.
You’re not engaging in rational talk here. You sound like you’re really on a rant. Not everybody here is out to get you.
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teancum79
Guest
what?
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vocatio
Guest
Well, my description of the earth is a generalization about the earth’s shape. It’s not that smooth. It’s rough you know.
But I’ve studied the earth just a tad and have come up with the conclusion that I believe there is intelligent life down there. If only we could find it.
That’s directed at everybody…including me.My philosophy is that wisdom begins with the realization of what we do not know…humility if you will. We know so much…but we know so little. I’ve been studying this stuff most of my life. I haven’t always practiced Catholicism. So don’t beat me over the head with what some knuckleheaded cradle Catholic says that might just be here to beat up a few Protestants for making him/her feel dumb or ask deeper questions.
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teancum79
Guest
I don’t think I’ve attacked you at all.Well, my description of the earth is a generalization about the earth’s shape. It’s not that smooth. It’s rough you know.
My philosophy is that wisdom begins with the realization of what we do not know…humility if you will. We know so much…but we know so little. I’ve been studying this stuff most of my life. I haven’t always practiced Catholicism. So don’t beat me over the head with what some knuckleheaded cradle Catholic says that might just be here to beat up a few Protestants for making him/her feel dumb or ask deeper questions.
My main question was the holding to history vs other approaches for the validity of the catholic faith. A few people have presented some different points of view. most though have held to “history proves me right.”
I find that approach to be interesting. History like most things is subject to a lot of differing views. in hard science we can always retest an idea math is fairly static too. I think it is interesting that people want to have the proof of their faith to be as solid as a hard science when it is based on a mixture of soft science and beliefs with not scientific foundation.
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Eden
Guest
We’re not talking about the same Holy Spirit. I’m talking about the true Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, not the construct out of Joseph Smith’s mind which he called by the same name. It’s a little like Muslims saying Issa is Jesus. It’s just not so.
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vocatio
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I came back to the Catholic Church kicking and screaming. It’s undeniable for honest folk that the historical church is evident in the fossel record…just being funny in a way. The historical documents in the early church fathers have been what I’ve mostly engaged in reading. I had many questions that were never answered rationally in my previous Protestant faith. We were so up there that we thought that WE were to one true church founded by Christ. But the only proff of that was Alexander Campbell’s restoration movement. Now if you want to argue with a brick wall, go to the “Preacher’s Files”. They’ll give you a run for your money more than any Catholic ever will. They know scripture really well by rote, but have no clue what the real meaning of the scriptures they recite out of context really mean. I must have been out of my mind to initially dealve into that faith.
It sounds like you’re ranting. My guess is that someone ticked you off for some reason. Maybe someone challenged you in a way you can’t respond? I don’t know. Study the scriptures. Catholicism is within the pages if you read it in context. I can’t say whether or not you’ll see it. But hopefully you’ll approach the pages with a clean heart allowing the Holy Spirit to guide you. Try to read it in the way a Catholic would understand it. Give it a shot. That’s all I have to say for you on the matter. I have copies of the Book of Mormon, haven’t read it all yet. I have a copy of the koran…Qua ran. I have Greek translatation and I used to even have the Hebrew old testament. I had a library of Lexicons and historical books that never talked abou the ancient church father in depth. I thought all of those books had been destroyed in wars.
It was the Da Vinci Code that turned the tables upside down for me. For a brief momen in time I almost came to doubt God…Christianity period. I was a Christian in the Church of Christ with lots of unasnwered questions… Where did we get the bible? I never accepted the “we gave it to you arrogant answer by Catholics”
It sounds like you’re ranting. My guess is that someone ticked you off for some reason. Maybe someone challenged you in a way you can’t respond? I don’t know. Study the scriptures. Catholicism is within the pages if you read it in context. I can’t say whether or not you’ll see it. But hopefully you’ll approach the pages with a clean heart allowing the Holy Spirit to guide you. Try to read it in the way a Catholic would understand it. Give it a shot. That’s all I have to say for you on the matter. I have copies of the Book of Mormon, haven’t read it all yet. I have a copy of the koran…Qua ran. I have Greek translatation and I used to even have the Hebrew old testament. I had a library of Lexicons and historical books that never talked abou the ancient church father in depth. I thought all of those books had been destroyed in wars.
It was the Da Vinci Code that turned the tables upside down for me. For a brief momen in time I almost came to doubt God…Christianity period. I was a Christian in the Church of Christ with lots of unasnwered questions… Where did we get the bible? I never accepted the “we gave it to you arrogant answer by Catholics”
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dosdog
Guest
James Strang
James Jesse Strang was a leader in the Latter Day Saint movement during and after the 1844 succession crisis. In 1844, Strang became the founder and prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
123exp-biographies.com/t/00034239876/
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teancum79
Guest
oh the god made up in 300ish ad okay you follow him and I’ll follow the one from the Bible and see how it turns out.
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Bwsherman
Guest
Teancum,
I have read this entire thread and it is my belief that most people on here would like to give you a better understanding of the Catholic faith. I would have to ask though, what is it that you would like to understand better?
In case it wasn’t already obvious, I will go ahead and tell you that Catholics on here will list numerous responses to your questions, but I think you need to be a bit more specific on what your question actually is. Your understanding of the world is filled with everything that you have experienced in the Mormon church. My experience is guided by my life within the Church. This point is very true. However, the Catholic Church does not spend time on Sunday to directly teach their people about other faiths and so most people here know very little about where your point of view comes from.
So, state a question would be my first request. Second, if your understand of said question goes against Mormon teaching please explain what the differences are so we can address the question with an appreciation of what you understand to be true. I think that this will help move the dialogue along and keep the posts from getting uncharitable in nature.
Just some thoughts…hope I can be of help in some way.
I have read this entire thread and it is my belief that most people on here would like to give you a better understanding of the Catholic faith. I would have to ask though, what is it that you would like to understand better?
In case it wasn’t already obvious, I will go ahead and tell you that Catholics on here will list numerous responses to your questions, but I think you need to be a bit more specific on what your question actually is. Your understanding of the world is filled with everything that you have experienced in the Mormon church. My experience is guided by my life within the Church. This point is very true. However, the Catholic Church does not spend time on Sunday to directly teach their people about other faiths and so most people here know very little about where your point of view comes from.
So, state a question would be my first request. Second, if your understand of said question goes against Mormon teaching please explain what the differences are so we can address the question with an appreciation of what you understand to be true. I think that this will help move the dialogue along and keep the posts from getting uncharitable in nature.
Just some thoughts…hope I can be of help in some way.
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teancum79
Guest
I’m not ranting or ticked off. I’ll admit that I’m a bit put out by people lying about my beliefs, but aside from that I’m fine with people on this board. I’ve been through the Bible (NT many times) the OT not as much. It is quite clear in some areas and the CC is not following it. No amount of excuses can change that.
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teancum79
Guest
That is a rather enlightened view for these boards.
When I have another question I’ll asked it.
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Eden
Guest
Early Church Fathers before 300 A.D. on the Holy Spirit and the Trinity:
Ignatius of Antioch
For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit (Letter to the Ephesians 18:2 [A.D. **110].
** Justin Martyr**
Code:
We will prove that we worship him reasonably, for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things, but they are ignorant of the mystery that lies therein (*First Apology* 13:5–6 [A.D. **151]).
Code:
We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, *oikonomia*, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. . . . This rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the gospel, before even the earlier heretics (*Against Praxeas* 2 [A.D.** 216]).Keep always in mind the rule of faith, which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (ibid., 9).
Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are, one essence, not one person, as it is said, “I and my Father are one” [John 10:30], in respect of unity of being, not singularity of number (ibid., 25).
** Origen**
Code:
For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that some part of the being of God was converted into the Son or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a being outside himself, so that there was a time when he [the Son] did not exist (*The Fundamental Doctrines* 4:4:1 [A.D. **225]).(cont’d)
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VWcrazy
Guest
Hate to break it to ya, but Catholics follow the God from Holy Scriptures - not some made-up late 19th century “god” created by Joseph Smith.
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Eden
Guest
** Pope Dionysius**
Therefore, the divine Trinity must be gathered up and brought together in one, a summit, as it were, I mean the omnipotent God of the universe. . . . It is blasphemy, then, and not a common one but the worst, to say that the Son is in any way a handiwork [creature]. . . . But if the Son came into being [was created], there was a time when these attributes did not exist; and, consequently, there was a time when God was without them, which is utterly absurd (ibid., 1–2).
Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity. . . . Rather, we must believe in God, the Father Almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the universe. “For,” he says, “The Father and I are one,” and “I am in the Father, and the Father in me” (ibid., 3).
** Gregory the Wonderworker**
Invented around 300 A.D.? You should read the Early Church Fathers. It’s all there from the beginning, no “invention” here.
Code:
Next, then, I may properly turn to those who divide and cut apart and destroy the most sacred proclamation of the Church of God, making of it [the Trinity], as it were, three powers, distinct substances, and three godheads. . . . [Some heretics] proclaim that there are in some way three gods, when they divide the sacred unity into three substances foreign to each other and completely separate (*Letter to Dionysius of Alexandria* 1 [A.D. 262]).Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity. . . . Rather, we must believe in God, the Father Almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the universe. “For,” he says, “The Father and I are one,” and “I am in the Father, and the Father in me” (ibid., 3).
** Gregory the Wonderworker**
Code:
There is one God. . . . There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything superinduced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son, but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever (*Declaration of Faith* [A.D. **265]).
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dosdog
Guest
I have a question for you
James Strang
James Jesse Strang was a leader in the Latter Day Saint movement during and after the 1844 succession crisis. In 1844, Strang became the founder and prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
123exp-biographies.com/t/00034239876/
Strang even produced a document that he claimed was written by Smith some time before his death, stating that Strang was to be Smith’s successor.
The revelation
As had Joseph Smith before him, Strang claimed to be blessed by heavenly visions, and claimed that an angel had appeared before him, revealing the location of an account of an ancient people, buried in a hill south of White River bridge.
After publicly revealing this vision to his followers on September 13, 1845, four of his most trusted elders accompanied him to a location beneath an oak tree deep in the woods
Opening the clay case, it was found to contain six mysterious brass plates, which were taken as being of divine origin.
strangstudies.org/James_Jesse_Strang/
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teancum79
Guest
].
** Justin Martyr**
Code:
We will prove that we worship him reasonably, for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things, but they are ignorant of the mystery that lies therein (*First Apology* 13:5–6 [A.D. **151]).
Code:
We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, *oikonomia*, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. . . . This rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the gospel, before even the earlier heretics (*Against Praxeas* 2 [A.D.** 216]).Keep always in mind the rule of faith, which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (ibid., 9).
Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are, one essence, not one person, as it is said, “I and my Father are one” [John 10:30], in respect of unity of being, not singularity of number (ibid., 25).
** Origen**
Code:
For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that some part of the being of God was converted into the Son or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a being outside himself, so that there was a time when he [the Son] did not exist (*The Fundamental Doctrines* 4:4:1 [A.D. **225]).(cont’d)
sorry 200ad ish creation (though I think is was in 300 ish that is became offical). The first 2 quotes seem quite consistent with the Bible and LDS view of God.
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dosdog
Guest
Welcome to EarlyChurchFathers.com
earlychurchfathers.org/
I have a question for you
James Strang
James Jesse Strang was a leader in the Latter Day Saint movement during and after the 1844 succession crisis. In 1844, Strang became the founder and prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
123exp-biographies.com/t/00034239876/
Strang even produced a document that he claimed was written by Smith some time before his death, stating that Strang was to be Smith’s successor.
The revelation
As had Joseph Smith before him, Strang claimed to be blessed by heavenly visions, and claimed that an angel had appeared before him, revealing the location of an account of an ancient people, buried in a hill south of White River bridge.
After publicly revealing this vision to his followers on September 13, 1845, four of his most trusted elders accompanied him to a location beneath an oak tree deep in the woods
Opening the clay case, it was found to contain six mysterious brass plates, which were taken as being of divine origin.
strangstudies.org/James_Jesse_Strang/
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teancum79
Guest
Dosdog you’ve posted that info several times what is your question?
Why are you asking it here?
Why are you asking it here?
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dosdog
Guest
Disprove the Historical Fact
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