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jmcrae
Guest
JonNC is Lutheran.You mean, a convert from Lutheran?
OneTrueCathApos is trying to teach him his own religion.
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OneTrueCathApos is trying to teach him his own religion.
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jzagar
Guest
I think that if you put aside the arguements and all of what everyone has to say about them and you look at what the Catholic church teaches not what Catholics say with a prayerful mind the fullness of what God wanted to reveal to us is clearly defined in the Catholic faith. If you are looking for a way to have a very intimate and close relationship with our Saviour then search for the truth and it will lead you to the Catholic faith. Follow your heart not your ears or eyes. Be open to the truth and dont discriminate.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Not necessarily.
Okay, you are talking to a Lutheran. If anybody would know what Lutheranism teaches, it would most likely be someone who goes to that church, right?
Come on, man. Give it up, already!
I believe Lutheranism was founded by Martin Luther. Lutheranism spread throughout Germany and Scandinavia, and the Protestant movement in various form could soon be found throughout Europe.
Your Lutheran denomination is the oldest Protestant denomination out there.
Those who followed Luther’s teachings were called “Lutherans” by their own opponents and they accepted the name for themselves.
Today Germany remains predominantly Lutheran. In Finland alone, 81% are members of The Evangelical Lutheran church of Finland.
Lutheran beliefs are expressed in numerous historical Lutheran confessions, most of which were penned by Luther himself.
These confessions have been collected into the Book of Concord, which is regarded as an authority for Doctrine and practice by all Lutherans.
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jmcrae
Guest
This, at least, is true.Not necessarily.
I believe Lutheranism was founded by Martin Luther. Lutheranism spread throughout Germany and Scandinavia, and the Protestant movement in various form could soon be found throughout Europe.
The Lutheran denomination is the oldest Protestant denomination out there.
Those who followed Luther’s teachings were called “Lutherans” by their own opponents and they accepted the name for themselves.
Today Germany remains predominantly Lutheran. In Finland alone, 81% are members of The Evangelical Lutheran church of Finland.
Lutheran beliefs are expressed in numerous historical Lutheran confessions, most of which were penned by Luther himself.
These confessions have been collected into the Book of Concord, which is regarded as an authority for Doctrine and practice by all Lutherans.
Most of the doctrines you listed in your message to JonNC are not found in any of these sources; they came from Calvinism, and elsewhere. (I’m not Lutheran, by the way. Jon is.)
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
No, they are from Luther. I do not lie.
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jmcrae
Guest
Okay, here’s how it goes:
The five Solas are from Luther.
TULIP (including predestination) is from Calvin.
Anticlericalism comes from Mennos. (Both Calvin and Luther tried to burn Mennos at the stake because of his anticlericalism.)
OSAS is from Campbell. (I think. It might also be from Billy Graham or someone close to Billy Graham.)
Adventism (the Rapture, etc.) comes from Ellen White.
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elvisman
Guest
Actually - I was trying to make a point - and by your replies I wasn’t very successful.
Anyway, I’m well-acquainted with this quote from Luther. I was making a point as to how things get taken out of context or are unfairly paraphrased.
JonNC’s comment about Luther using hyperbole to describe what he believed was interesting though. It’s a shame that when Scripture uses hyperbole, many Protestants fail to understand to this day:
"Call no man father" (Matt. 23:9)
"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23)
"They will pick up serpents (with their hands), and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not harm them." (Mark 16:18)
"If any one comes to me without hating his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)
I actually know of a “Baptist” church that teaches that Jesus hated Mary with a passion and even hated the Father! I know that is not common Baptist theology.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Here is how it really goes:
Okay, here’s how it goes:
The five Solas are from Luther.
TULIP (including predestination) is from Calvin.
Anticlericalism comes from Mennos. (Both Calvin and Luther tried to burn Mennos at the stake because of his anticlericalism.)
OSAS is from Campbell. (I think. It might also be from Billy Graham or someone close to Billy Graham.)
Adventism (the Rapture, etc.) comes from Ellen White.
The Doctrine of Predestination was already a problem in the 17th century, even within the Calvinist tradition, and there had been similar quarrels within the Lutheran tradition also.
The doctrine of Predestination is typically understood as a doctrine of Double Predestination—some are predestined to salvation, and some to damnation.
Luther’s doctrine of predestination is a single predestination and only involves predestination to salvation.
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notsmart
Guest
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.aspHere is how it really goes:
The Doctrine of Predestination was already a problem in the 17th century, even within the Calvinist tradition, and there had been similar quarrels within the Lutheran tradition also.
The doctrine of Predestination is typically understood as a doctrine of Double Predestination—some are predestined to salvation, and some to damnation.
Luther’s doctrine of predestination is a single predestination and only involves predestination to salvation.
Please read the entire article and then do what the spirit leads you to do. Its not too late to retract your comments and offer an apology rather than play apologetics for now.
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Blade_and_Blood
Guest
I don’t really think it matters anymore. It’s a little “outdated”.
Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood
Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood
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O.S.Luke
Guest
Y’all might as well give up. OneFalseCathApos ain’t gonna offer an apology or retraction in 100 years. He can’t be wrong. The guy even argues with the Catholic Bishops on their own biblical commentary, so what makes you think he won’t argue with historical theology and practice - even if it comes from an OFFICIAL Catholic source? 
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notsmart
Guest
Hope that a person can shed their pride and admit that christians are not enemies, sp?(only on the internet) and try to not even think we are, and work on ways we can try to somehow, someway get more bonds together so we can show the world Christ in a better light than in past to all the Ghandi’s of the world, who like Christ, but not christians…
Like I did not either once.
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notsmart
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My link or?
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
If you look at what I wrote it is that Calvin believed in **double predestination **, while Luther believed in **single predestination. **It was basically known back then as double predestination. Get it?
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
For Luther, predestination is a critical component of the overall process of Justification where **“Those whom he predestined, proposed or chose, he also called, to faith through the word, and those whom he called he also justified, through the spirit of faith, and those whom he justified, he also magnified, in place of “glorified”, that is, he glorified them in eternal life.” (Luther 75)Y’all might as well give up. OneFalseCathApos ain’t gonna offer an apology or retraction in 100 years. He can’t be wrong. The guy even argues with the Catholic Bishops on their own biblical commentary, so what makes you think he won’t argue with historical theology and practice - even if it comes from an OFFICIAL Catholic source?
**Luther is clear that the faithful have been **predestined, **elected, from the beginning and writes that “]According to the decree of predestination we have been saints from the beginning” (Luther 44)
Luther writes that this Justification is not God’s approval of our will (our decision to be faithful), but rather he gives approval “To his own unchanging and firm will of predestination” (Luther 371).
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O.S.Luke
Guest
Good. You still got a LONG way to go to backtrack on some of the assertions you’ve made that are clearly wrong.
Up to the challenge?
Up to the challenge?
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FollowTheWay
Guest
As long as people are putting the importance on what religion they are or what doctrine to follow then they have completely lost what it means to follow Christ. To actually reach people and bring Heaven to earth we have to get rid of this im over here and your over there mentality. I believe there are real believers in the “Catholic” church, in the “Christian”, and in the “Lutheran” church but that may be about 5% as a whole, generally people are just lukewarm these days. The body of Christ is the church we are all one people, united we stand divided we fall.
and too onecathapp - I was talking about history in that post, if you dont want to believe what is historically documented within in the church, they why believe what the church says?
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Steadfast
Guest
You guys are asking him to be nuanced and to understand that Protestantism is not a monolithic entiy which can be ascribed to a single personality.
What you may be failing to notice is that he just doesn’t care, the more broadly brushed and purple the BS the more he likes it.
What you may be failing to notice is that he just doesn’t care, the more broadly brushed and purple the BS the more he likes it.
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Steadfast
Guest
For the record, Luther believed in predestination, but all Christians belive in some kind of predestination; it’s in the Bible.
But he really didn’t write enough about it for us to know whether he believed in so called “double predestination” or not.
Judging by what he did write about grace being universal and his unswerving commitment to the idea that Christ did not die only for a few but for all people, he clearly disagreed with Calvin.
On the bondage of the will he has also spoken plainly (he wrote a book on it, in fact), but this is not the same thing as predestination.
So, we need to know what the writer of the OP means by “predestination”, in reality, Luther appears to have been much closer to Aquinas than most Catholics today.
But he really didn’t write enough about it for us to know whether he believed in so called “double predestination” or not.
Judging by what he did write about grace being universal and his unswerving commitment to the idea that Christ did not die only for a few but for all people, he clearly disagreed with Calvin.
On the bondage of the will he has also spoken plainly (he wrote a book on it, in fact), but this is not the same thing as predestination.
So, we need to know what the writer of the OP means by “predestination”, in reality, Luther appears to have been much closer to Aquinas than most Catholics today.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
Amen to that. Christians really need to come together. I say Catholics can learn a lot from their Protestant brothers and sisters. Most Catholics do not study the Bible like Protestants. Protestants could learn about the rich history of Christianity and experience the beauty of the Catholic rituals.
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