Is traditional Catholicism on the rise?

[wisdomseeker]

We must not abandon the “spirit of Vatican II.”

It’s nonsense to suggest that both liturgies can’t co-exist. I think the Church should leave liturgy options up to the parish priest. If a priest likes the latin mass; let him do the latin mass… But if a priest wants to do a vatican II mass let him do both…

This liturgy wars stuff is bull…

No one liturgy is above the other. I see no reason why they both can’t coexist. Ever since holy father brought back the latin mass all the traditionalists see it as their god given right to throw the church back to the middle ages where the inquisition was around and where we sold indulgences so dead dudes could get to heaven…

You want to be a traditionalist and have your latin mass?! Fine! But don’t force the moderate and liberal wings of the Church to conform to your narrow minded ideas of how Catholicism should be. You got what you wanted. You got your latin mass back. Stop trying to force oldness back down my throat!

Vatican II is hear to stay. The whole thing about moderates and liberal dying off is bull.

I just posted on in Apologetics a post about the evils of capitalism. So far more Catholics posting condemn it than support it.

Liberals and moderates dying off? bull. All of it. Take a ride over to some of the other forums and see for yourself how many other Catholics outside your little narrow minded traditionalist bubble there is.

that is the kind of attituted that is sad to the Traditional Mass goers. the holy father has said that these changes brought much divisiion in the Church. it is going to be difficult to have both that way it is now. it seems that they are two different religion. we dont believe the same things. we dont even want to talk to each other. why do you think that bishops oppose the Latin Mass so much? if it wasnt for such opposition the Latin Mass would florish really fast.

 

[mrld20]

that is the kind of attituted that is sad to the Traditional Mass goers. the holy father has said that these changes brought much divisiion in the Church. it is going to be difficult to have both that way it is now. it seems that they are two different religion. we dont believe the same things. we dont even want to talk to each other. why do you think that bishops oppose the Latin Mass so much? if it wasnt for such opposition the Latin Mass would florish really fast.

I’ve said it time and time again… If you would stop saying the latin mass is the only valid mass and I would stop saying the local vatican II mass is the only one then there’d be no liturgy wars…

I’ve met you half way by saying both can exist. Don’t you dare accuse me of division! It’s you traditionalists who argue we have to only allow the latin mass!

I’m willing to compromise and allow both as the holy father… I’ve got no problem with traditionalists… What I have a problem is the “my way or the highway” attitude so many of you have. You got your latin mass! But you can’t force the entire Church to readopt the latin mass after 50 years of mass in local languages.

You got what you wanted! Isn’t that enough for you people?!

You don’t make doctrine for the Church. No theologian has stood up. No pope has stood up to declare that the latin mass is the only valid mass. It’s an opinion. Vatican II is officially sanctioned by the Church.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I’ve said it time and time again… If you would stop saying the latin mass is the only valid mass and I would stop saying the local vatican II mass is the only one then there’d be no liturgy wars…

I’ve met you half way by saying both can exist. Don’t you dare accuse me of division! It’s you traditionalists who argue we have to only allow the latin mass!

I’m willing to compromise and allow both as the holy father… I’ve got no problem with traditionalists… What I have a problem is the “my way or the highway” attitude so many of you have. You got your latin mass! But you can’t force the entire Church to readopt the latin mass after 50 years of mass in local languages.

You got what you wanted! Isn’t that enough for you people?!

You don’t make doctrine for the Church. No theologian has stood up. No pope has stood up to declare that the latin mass is the only valid mass. It’s an opinion. Vatican II is officially sanctioned by the Church.

Thing is, though, Vatican II COMMANDED use of Latin in the liturgy. You act like a “Vatican II mass” and a Latin mass can’t be the same thing. Vatican II and Latin and masses in that language and pomp and circumstance and traditionalism are not exclusive of each other, but many people force them to be so.

 

[mrld20]

Thing is, though, Vatican II COMMANDED use of Latin in the liturgy. You act like a “Vatican II mass” and a Latin mass can’t be the same thing. Vatican II and Latin and masses in that language and pomp and circumstance and traditionalism are not exclusive of each other, but many people force them to be so.

We can use both latin and local languages. Suggesting that one language is better than the other is bull. We should use latin and local languages… It’s the perfect compromise guys. Keep the peace and the status quo!

 

[YoungTradCath]

We can use both Latin and local languages. Suggesting that one language is better than the other is bull. We should use Latin and local languages…

From an intellectual perspective, and from that perspective exclusively, I’d argue that Latin is actually one of the, if not the, most superior language on the face of the earth. I also don’t like mixing of languages. It seems apologetic, and not in the explain-the-faith sense. I once went to a mass where part was in English, part was in Spanish, part was in Polish, and part was in Vietnamese, and I’m not joking. Note that this mass was attended exclusively by pasty white suburbanites, and yes, I know them all. This, “I’m sorry for who I really am, I promise to not be Catholic anymore,” attitude really saddens me.

Certain languages are better than others. Our English is a bit of a joke of a language, in my opinion, and is vulgarizing itself even more day by day. I don’t mean to say that it’s not a beautiful language. It is, but Latin is obviously superior to it in so many ways.

 

[mrld20]

“pasty white suburbanites” is that how you feel about your moderate and progressive brothers and sisters in Christ?

Me I’m proudly progressive in my faith (I’m in good standing with the Church don’t make me explain all my views ).

I believe in the spirit of Vatican II (as does most of the Church leadership). It means appeasing everyone including you and your “pasty white suburbanites.”

This means both the latin mass and the local languages are valid.

 

[amlcssr]

Me I’m proudly progressive in my faith (I’m in good standing with the Church don’t make me explain all my views ).

As a general observation, not necessarily specifically applicable to you, any person who does not accept and believe each and every doctrine that is a part of the deposit of faith (i.e., proclaimed dogmas and other infallible teachings), has not the Catholic faith at all and is ipso facto outside of the Church.

 

[YoungTradCath]

“pasty white suburbanites” is that how you feel about your moderate and progressive brothers and sisters in Christ?

Me I’m proudly progressive in my faith (I’m in good standing with the Church don’t make me explain all my views ).

I believe in the spirit of Vatican II (as does most of the Church leadership). It means appeasing everyone including you and your “pasty white suburbanites.”

This means both the latin mass and the local languages are valid.

My comment about the others present in that mass is actually a fact, which I can’t change. I also never commented on their disposition to the activities performed in the liturgy, and their being pasty white suburbanites does not imply any disposition.

I challenge your comment that most Church leadership believes in the “spirit” of Vatican II. I think it’s a horrible invention, a twisting of the unfortunately ambiguous but ultimately commendable language of the Council and His Excellencies which took part in it.

I never challenged the validity of any mass. English masses are valid. I just commented on our barbaric language.

My whole point here is that I can basically make up any opinion I want and find a Church document somewhere that vaguely, in the tiniest sense, supports it, and say I’m right. I believe that is what has happened in many instances today, and I simply do not understand how so many people don’t see what’s in front of them.

 

[mrld20]

As a general observation, not necessarily specifically applicable to you, any person who does not accept and believe each and every doctrine that is a part of the deposit of faith (i.e., proclaimed dogmas and other infallible teachings), has not the Catholic faith at all and is ipso facto outside of the Church.

I accept the basic teachings of the church. I am pro-life. But I go beyond abortion (i am compelled to because I am a catholic worker). I am not only opposed to abortion but eugenics, euthanasia, capital punishment, all war, self-defense, and lethal force.

I support heavy taxation and redistribution of wealth and translate it as the preferential option for the poor.

My conservative streak is for keeping marriage between one man and one woman. But I will support hate crimes laws.

See I can be progressive while being in good standing with the Church

 

[Ruth_Catherine]

I believe in the spirit of Vatican II (as does most of the Church leadership).:

I think you’re wrong about this. There is no way you can know what most of the Church leadership believes. Using the excuse of “we’re doing this in the spirit of Vatican II” is what has brought on so many problems, disobedience and exoduses in the church. It doesn’t appear that the “spirit of Vatican II” is what new leaders are bringing.

I think it is great that so many people want to bring back their Catholic identity. I am hearing it many, many places. Not just on the traditional forum.

 

[amlcssr]

I accept the basic teachings of the church. I am pro-life. But I go beyond abortion (i am compelled to because I am a catholic worker). I am not only opposed to abortion but eugenics, euthanasia, capital punishment, all war, self-defense, and lethal force.

I support heavy taxation and redistribution of wealth and translate it as the preferential option for the poor.

My conservative streak is for keeping marriage between one man and one woman. But I will support hate crimes laws.

See I can be progressive while being in good standing with the Church

I had written a rather long answer that somehow got lost. Since I don’t want to write it again I’ll limit myself to the core: This stuff seems for the most part to be political opinions that are unaffected one way or the other by the doctrine of the Church. There are some nuances that deserve consideration, but that’s what disappeared and I’ll take it as revealed that this isn’t the time or place.

 

[DJK100]

I had no idea Africa was like that, I always pictured it as being a very conservative place. I guess Cardinal Arinze is not in the majority there then?

I agree with the post by kmuestwin, I just dont understand how we can throw away all of the beauty we have collected over 2,000 years. I am so thankfull to be accepted into the true church of Christ next month and cannot wait to partake in the true presence, but I have to admit, it is very discouraging to me the lack of reverence and tradition that occurs, I guess that makes me a traditionalist…or conservative?? I think a lot of people who are joining feel the same way that I do in RCIA. Cause I have to admit, if the Catholic Church was not the church that Christ founded and was truly present in the Eucharist, I would definently pass over the church for somewhere more conservative. But I am happy to be here and just pray things change or the better. I know things change over centuries…but I often ask myself if the early Catholics…or even Catholics from 100 years ago would recognize what we have now?

Hi NorthTexan,

I think you are in a unique position. It seems like you and your RCIA group are looking for a more traditional mass. In addition to praying for it I would brining it up with your Pastor to see if he might take one of the mass times and make it more traditional for those who want it. It you’re whole RCIA class makes that request it might be able to fly.

I recently got invited to join our Pastoral Council and will be the youngest one on that council by at least 30-35 years and that will be one of my first “issues” to try and reccomend. I think putting some of the traditions back into the Church are a good thing and I think a lot of the younger generation are seeing that as well. Of course, I am fortunate to be in a diocese where we have a Parish that only celebrates TLM. It is awesome. I try to go to that every once in a while.

 

[NorthTexan88]

I understand where your coming from mrld20 and respect that, I just think it is the way that the NO is carried out that is the problem, I have no qualms with it being in English…
I do however have to disagree with you, at least in my situation, that modernist are not, if at the very least diminishing in numbers. I would say I have a group of about 20-25 people ranging from 17-32’is that I talk to from school/work/church/other who are mostly practising Catholics, this includes 2 seminarians. All but about 3 are taditional and would like tadition brought back to the church, they are tired of the prtestant-Catholic church they grew up in. Coincidentally one of the self proclaimed “liberals” of that group just happens to be my confirmation sponser who I love very much as a friend Part of her problem though was very very bad catechesis (she told me she didnt think the pope mattered anymore) so I in turn have been trying to teach her more about her own faith.

DJK100, I hope you are able to make a difference in your parish, and I hope to one day be in the same position as you. Technically our 8:30 Mass is “suppos” to be the traditional one but I think even that might be stretch. I think we need more people to stand up and fight for the faith rather than back down and just accept it. If more people would document and pay attention to abuses then maybe things would happen a lot faster.

On the language of the Mass, do I think it matters? Yes and no…
Is an English Mass valid? definently…is a Latin Mass valid? definently.
I just happen to think Mass in Latin sounds prettier and I feel more connected to the Church as it was for over 1,500 years using the Latin language…plus in my experience it has been more reverent, hence why I’m on the TRADITIONAL forum.
But mrld20, I say if you like Mass in English then keep with it! we each have our own prefences.

 

[guanophore]

We must not abandon the “spirit of Vatican II.”

Maybe you don’t really understand what we mean by that. Many of us have witnessed aggregious practices and teaching that were based upon “the spirit of Vatican II”. When we say that we are referring to the smoke of Satan entering the Church through abandonment of the faith. It is a reference for people doing non-Catholic things in the name of the “spirit” that were not what the Council intended.

It’s nonsense to suggest that both liturgies can’t co-exist. I think the Church should leave liturgy options up to the parish priest. If a priest likes the latin mass; let him do the latin mass… But if a priest wants to do a vatican II mass let him do both…

I agree with you, even though I prefer the Greek to either the Latin or the Novus Ordo.

This liturgy wars stuff is bull…

No one liturgy is above the other. I see no reason why they both can’t coexist. Ever since holy father brought back the latin mass all the traditionalists see it as their god given right to throw the church back to the middle ages where the inquisition was around and where we sold indulgences so dead dudes could get to heaven…

Such a statement reflects ignorance and bigotry. Of course every Catholic has the God given right to proper liturgy and properly cathected sacraments. And there is also nothing wrong with the Catholic doctrine of the “middle ages”. The doctrine if Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

You clearly need to educate yourself about the history of the inquisition and indulgences. Please do this before you embarass yourself again posting statements of this kind on a public forum. This post will be here for a long time, as a written testimony of your ignorance and inappropriate accusation.

You want to be a traditionalist and have your latin mass?! Fine! But don’t force the moderate and liberal wings of the Church to conform to your narrow minded ideas of how Catholicism should be. You got what you wanted. You got your latin mass back. Stop trying to force oldness back down my throat!

Dear one, you are in serious spiritual need right now. Clearly something has struck a nerve with you in this thread, and God is calling your to repent and believe in the Gospel.

There are no “liberal and moderate wings of the Church”. Jesus only founded One Church with one Doctrine. Those who depart from the doctrine of the faith have separated themselves from the One Faith passed down to us from the Apostles. “Liberal and moderate Catholics” who reject the teachings of the Church have become protestants, and are rebellious subjects of the Roman Pontiff.

You are right, though, the way to life is narrow and hard, but that narrowness is not formulated by traditional Catholics. The way is narrow because that is how Jesus set things up. You are also right that the Truth should not be “forced down the throat” of anyone. Each person has an opportunity to choose the teaching and Way of Christ. If you reject it, that is your choice.

Vatican II is hear to stay. The whole thing about moderates and liberal dying off is bull.

All we can do is fast, and pray that liberals and moderates will be quickened by the Holy Spirit to realize that they have left the teachings of Jesus in preference for their own ideas.

Liberals and moderates dying off? bull. All of it. Take a ride over to some of the other forums and see for yourself how many other Catholics outside your little narrow minded traditionalist bubble there is.

There are a great many persons calling themselves Catholic who do not espouse Catholic faith.

 

[guanophore]

Don’t you dare accuse me of division!

You are accused by the words of your own mouth, dear sister. It is you who are so hostile in defending liberalism and modernism. These concepts divide Christ’s One Body.

I’m willing to compromise and allow both

This is a mighty grand concession of you.

:bowdown:

as the holy father… I’ve got no problem with traditionalists…

Your posts appear to indicate otherwise.

You got what you wanted! Isn’t that enough for you people?!

It is a good start, for sure, but the purging of modernism will take some time, and a lot more work. Educating persons like yourself who are misinformed about their faith is a tall order. Especially when such persons are quick to find fault with others.

Vatican II is officially sanctioned by the Church.

Yes, but modernism and liberalism are not, and never will be.

 

[NewsTheMan]

Great job guanophore :clapping:

I’m glad you did it. I have no intention of engaging with someone who calls Tradition “bull” and trash talks something they don’t understand.

 

[guanophore]

Great job guanophore :clapping:

I’m glad you did it. I have no intention of engaging with someone who calls Tradition “bull” and trash talks something they don’t understand.

It does grieve the heart, but we must steel ourselves unto the corporal work of mercy to instruct the ignorant with all patience.

 

[NewsTheMan]

It does grieve the heart, but we must steel ourselves unto the corporal work of mercy to instruct the ignorant with all patience.

You’re a better person than I am. Long way to go for me. I can dish out the criticism but when it comes my way I get That’s why I love this forum - we have saintly people so that we I fail you can pick up my slack :blushing:

 

[Etamin]

Lex orandi, lex credendi.
How we pray shapes how and what we believe.

The return of the EF is hoped to have a positive effect on the development of the OF. The first venacular translation of the OF, particularily in English, has been banal at best, and many good and holy practices and prayers were almost abandoned at the transition to the OF. The new translation, Advent 2011, is another step being taken to help bring us closer to our Latin roots.

As this greatest prayer of the Church, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, was simplified in the OF transition, we also appear to have lost our strong Catholic culture, the pious practices that protected many generations of Catholics in the past.

Come Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful and incindle in them the fire of your love.

The encouragement and assistance given by Bl. John Paul the Great and Pope Benedict XVI to the celebration of the traditional Latin Mass will, we pray, with time help repair the many errand and heretical beliefs that have crept into the hearts of some, who say they profess the Catholic faith, but in practice dissent from many of her teachings. Many adults in the Church still need to receive a True Catechesis of the faith. Lord have mercy on us.

 

[pnewton]

Great job guanophore :clapping:

I’m glad you did it. I have no intention of engaging with someone who calls Tradition “bull” and trash talks something they don’t understand.

Following this argument, I would like to make some clarifications of the facts, that can easily be checked, in an effort to reduce the amount of talking past each other. I note first, that mrld20 never called Tradition bull. What was said, “This liturgy wars stuff is bull” and “Liberals and moderates dying off? bull” and “Suggesting that one language is better than the other is bull.”

Also mrld20 stated, “I’ve said it time and time again… If you would stop saying the latin mass is the only valid mass…” No one here has made such a claim. For one thing, it is against the rules to pit one Mass against the other. Declaring one to be invalid is the ultimate violation of that rule.

Now as opinion, I noticed that mrld20 has stated multiple times, if one reads here posts a little more objectively, that she is in favor of peaceful coexistence. I am pretty sure that is the opinion of most everyone here. Therefore, I really do not understand the conflict over a point everyone has in common. This is why I believe this is an argument based more in rhetoric than fact.

I also think terminology gets in the way. The fact that liberalism and modernism are used in the same sentence is telling. Liberalism is mostly a politcial term. Whe used in a theological sense, there is nothing wrong with it, as long as orthodoxy is maintained. Modernism is used mostly to mean “modern” or “new”, today and has little to do with the Nineteenth Century philosphy, as that philosophy has not even entered this discussion.

As to the future demographics of the Church, that is an exercise in futility. Let the future take care of itself. Leave it in the hands of God. Our job is to deal with the present. Speculation on unknowable statistics from the future leads nowhere.

One final note: we have the Vatican II council. We have no Spirit of Vatican II council. Speculation on what the “spirit” of the council was is worthless. We have the actually documents. They are the facts we have before us. This “spirit” has no authority and is smoke and mirrors. If the Holy Spirit did not see fit to inspire the Council to include something, then by all means anyone that comes along later and speculates about what should have happened is no better than those who try to deny the Council. VII is what it is, no embelishment needed.