Is Tridentine Mass Episcopal or Roman Catholic?

[bpbasilphx]

<<I must confess that I’ve never once seen a biretta/birettum in person, despite being a weekly church-goer. They really aren’t at all that common in Average Catholicland. >>

The biretta has fallen out of use among most ordinary parish priests, though it’s still part of the choir dress of bishops and cardinals.

I wonder how much this has to do with men not wearing hats as much as was done before the 60’s (corresponding with the V2 era)?

 

[KathleenElsie]

Holy Roller you seem to be on the way back to the Holy Catholic Church. Don’t wait toooo long. The classes for returning Catholics are about to start with the new school year.

 

[Holy_Roller]

Bless my soul!

You were there, in the flesh, you managed to find the website, you were raised a Catholic in the years of the old rite before opting to become a Protestant, and you take your mother-in-law to Mass every weekend, and you even have enough familiarity with the Catholic Church to know where the local Tridentine Mass is held daily. Plus at 2:42 AM you posted

So you knew it to be Catholic then… but after attending, by 11:05 you were confused?

All this and you were still confused about if this parish was Catholic and what a biretta is?

How could this be?

Well bless your heart, either way.

Yeah, my old buddy from the Motu Proprio Forum. I had better explain in detail.

Many of the churches here in the Oakland area share or rent out their sanctuary to other denominations. The Korean Christians usually rent the Presbyterian Churches. So naturally, when I seen the funny looking hat and the word Episcopal I started wondering what church service I was in, not who owned the building. The church building is listed in the Diocese of Oakland web site. During the years I have read many newspaper articles about the Roman Church being in union with other denominations.

Someday I will find the recent decree, for you, that recognizes the Protestants as fellow Christians and invites us back into the Mass. Until then, you will just have to take my word for it. I’m not on any Catholic mailing list, so I get all of my information from newspapers and magazine articles.

Richard

 

[Holy_Roller]

Holy Roller you seem to be on the way back to the Holy Catholic Church. Don’t wait toooo long. The classes for returning Catholics are about to start with the new school year.

At present I’m happy in the peace and quiet of the church pondering what I have learned from the Protestants. I enjoy taking-in all the Catholic culture around me. All it takes for a former Catholic to be in a state of grace is a simple confession. Both my wife and I are from large Catholic families, so we know for a fact, that some don’t follow the precepts of the Church and confess at least once a year. I’m not judging them, it’s just that we are not two-faced like that. If I ever do return, it will be to the traditional church that I remember from my youth.

Richard

 

[mgrfin]

At present I’m happy in the peace and quiet of the church pondering what I have learned from the Protestants. I enjoy taking-in all the Catholic culture around me. All it takes for a former Catholic to be in a state of grace is a simple confession. Both my wife and I are from large Catholic families, so we know for a fact, that some don’t follow the precepts of the Church and confess at least once a year. I’m not judging them, it’s just that we are not two-faced like that. If I ever do return, it will be to the traditional church that I remember from my youth.

Richard

Let me ask you a personal question, and you can tell me to MMOB, but why are you delaying your return to the Church?
Do you have tomorrow, for sure? You will come back some time in the future? Is there a future for you, guaranteed?
We argue here about “Outside the Church there is no salvation”.
There is meaning in that for fallen away Catholics as well. It is time to get back. The Church of your and my past, in externals, have changed dramatically, but they are the same doctrinally. You worry about your Catholic friends. Please worry about yourself. “Charity begins at home”.

Pax
mgrfin

 

[bilop]

At present I’m happy in the peace and quiet of the church pondering what I have learned from the Protestants. I enjoy taking-in all the Catholic culture around me. All it takes for a former Catholic to be in a state of grace is a simple confession. Both my wife and I are from large Catholic families, so we know for a fact, that some don’t follow the precepts of the Church and confess at least once a year. I’m not judging them, it’s just that we are not two-faced like that. If I ever do return, it will be to the traditional church that I remember from my youth.

Richard

Maybe you need the graces of confession and the Eucharist to help you come back all the way? If you fall, you can always cease receiving and reconsider.

God bless you in your journey.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Someday I will find the recent decree, for you, that recognizes the Protestants as fellow Christians and invites us back into the Mass. Until then, you will just have to take my word for it. I’m not on any Catholic mailing list, so I get all of my information from newspapers and magazine articles.Richard

Richard, this reliance on secular news sources could be at the heart of some problems and misunderstandings. No less an august secular news source than the London Times got a small story VERY wrong recently in a BIG way.

See here: jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2007/02/shes_baaaaaaaaa.html

So I am still perplexed by what you are referring to as with " I will find the recent decree, for you, that recognizes the Protestants as fellow Christians and invites us back into the Mass. "

Firstly, we never said Protestants weren’t Christian.

Secondly, you were always invited to attend and participate - this is not new. But the fullness of participation - communion - remains, as always, not allowed to Protestants.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Okay, I’m not used to seeing a biretta hat. On the front page of the church bulletin it says, “Father Stanislaw Zak Pastor, Rev. Michael Wiener, Episcopal Delegate for the Latin Rite of 1962 Indult in the Diocese of Oakland and Larysz Rutkowska, Administrative Assistant” The biretta hat and Episcopal minister listed had me wondering what church I was in?

“Episcopal” means "pretaining to (a) bishop(s).

The Anglicans call themselves “Episcopalians” because they reject the Papacy and claim to be run by a college of bishops.

 

[Holy_Roller]

Let me ask you a personal question, and you can tell me to MMOB, but why are you delaying your return to the Church?
Do you have tomorrow, for sure? You will come back some time in the future? Is there a future for you, guaranteed?
We argue here about “Outside the Church there is no salvation”.
There is meaning in that for fallen away Catholics as well. It is time to get back. The Church of your and my past, in externals, have changed dramatically, but they are the same doctrinally. You worry about your Catholic friends. Please worry about yourself. “Charity begins at home”.

Pax
mgrfin

One of my chores is to take my Catholic mother-in-law to church on Sunday evenings, and rather that sit out in the car like I used to, I have become interest in the traditional catholic stuff. Our family church is one of those mega protestant churches with comfortable upholstered seats, giant video screens, and professional musicians. The music is contemporary Christian (light) rock. I guess that we are classified as “Holy Rollers”?

I may be an old fart, but I’m still raising kids. My youngest will enter his senior year in a private Christian High School next month. He has been in that private school since pre-school and he is Protestant spelled with all capital letters. When he goes away to college, there is a chance that my wife and I may return to the Catholics, because of our Catholic background. However, it would be like putting a square block in a round hole for my boy to give up his Protestantism. The youth groups in those mega churches are also very professional, and the kids want to get there early to socialize with the other kids.

By the way, I didn’t see any families at the Tridentine Mass last evening, so it will be interesting to see if teenagers show up next Sunday at the High Mass. I have my doubts? What do you think? Will the teenagers will leave their Christian Rock music for Gregorian Chants?

Richard

 

[Ad_Deum]

It is Roman Catholic and run by the Institute of Christ the King.
Episcopal mass for I know is mostly in english, and Traditional Catholic Mass is Latin.

Pax
Laudater Jesus Christo
Instaurare omnia in Christo

 

[mgrfin]

One of my chores is to take my Catholic mother-in-law to a Pentecostal church on Sunday evenings, and rather that sit out in the car like I used to, I have become interest in the traditional catholic stuff. Our family church is one of those mega protestant churches with comfortable upholstered seats, giant video screens, and professional musicians. The music is contemporary Christian (light) rock. I guess that we are classified as “Holy Rollers”?

I may be an old fart, but I’m still raising kids. My youngest will enter his senior year in a private Christian High School next month. He has been in that private school since pre-school and he is Protestant spelled with all capital letters. When he goes away to college, there is a chance that my wife and I may return to the Catholics, because of our Catholic background. However, it would be like putting a square block in a round hole for my boy to give up his Protestantism. The youth groups in those mega churches are also very professional, and the kids want to get there early to socialize with the other kids.

By the way, I didn’t see any families at the Tridentine Mass last evening, so it will be interesting to see if teenagers show up next Sunday at the High Mass. I have my doubts? What do you think? Will the teenagers will leave their Christian Rock music for Gregorian Chants?

Richard

Don’t worry about your neighbors, and who goes to the Latin Mass and who doesn’t.

According to what you say, you go to be entertained. Comfortable seats, giant TV screens, professional entertainers.
But no Jesus physically present. No Eucharist, no oneship with your family, no universal prayer for this world.

Maybe they even have some ‘miracles’ to ooh and ah the people, with a little unintelligle ‘tongues’.

I watch TBN a lot. I am amazed. They have what you like: nice seats, professional entertainers and dancers, and preachers who moan on and on for 90 minutes begging for money, and laying a lot of guilt on people who don’t pay their tithes, or give them one month’s mortage, or pledge $1,000.

Take one problem at a time. Your son has to be responsible for his own decisions. You can’t postphone your’s because of how he feels about it.

It is none of my business. But youre putting yourself out there about being satisfied with half a loaf.
peace
mgrfin

 

[ASimpleSinner]

By the way, I didn’t see any families at the Tridentine Mass last evening, so it will be interesting to see if teenagers show up next Sunday at the High Mass. I have my doubts? What do you think? Will the teenagers will leave their Christian Rock music for Gregorian Chants?

Apparently some must be. The average age of candidates for the priesthood in orderst that celebrate the TLM exclusively is in the low 30s including many, many 20somethings.

Anyone 45 or under can’t have much -if any - memory of the TLM as the regular rite of the Latin Church. Yet most of the seminarians studying it now are well under that age.

No one is asking or proposing that kids leave behind their pop music. (Although they would do rather well to be careful about what they are listening to.) But honestly, if you come to share in a Catholic understanding of what the Mass is and what the Mass does, leaving one’s guitar and drum set at home (or saving it for the youth dance) doesn’t seem like a sacrafice - it seems like a rather good idea.

This for worshipping God:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

This for the party, concert or dance afterwards
http://i.realone.com/assets/rn/img/5/0/5/6/11196505.jpg

We are not there for the entertainment or the padded seats, and multi-media presentation. A Catholic who knows his faith will rush to a low Mass in a small chapel with just the priest well before being attracted to the biggest arena with the best air conditioning, the most tail-kickin laser show,& rock band.

That’s not what we go there. A teenager can be made to see that.

 

[mgrfin]

Apparently some must be. The average age of candidates for the priesthood in orderst that celebrate the TLM exclusively is in the low 30s including many, many 20somethings.

Anyone 45 or under can’t have much -if any - memory of the TLM as the regular rite of the Latin Church. Yet most of the seminarians studying it now are well under that age.

No one is asking or proposing that kids leave behind their pop music. (Although they would do rather well to be careful about what they are listening to.) But honestly, if you come to share in a Catholic understanding of what the Mass is and what the Mass does, leaving one’s guitar and drum set at home (or saving it for the youth dance) doesn’t seem like a sacrafice - it seems like a rather good idea.

This for worshipping God:
http://www.execulink.com/~dtribe/blog/CIELUKconf.jpg

This for the party, concert or dance afterwards
http://i.realone.com/assets/rn/img/5/0/5/6/11196505.jpg

Anyone studying for the Priesthood since Vatican II, til now, has had the same foundation in latin as those in the time of Paul VI.

They get 4 years of hs latin, and another language, probably Spanish. Then in College they get 4 more years of latin, with a little Greek and Hebrew thrown in.

Practicing the Latin rite will take about 20 hours tops.

I don’t see it as a problem.
PAX
mgrfin

 

[bjford]

St. Maragret Mary is definately Catholic-- in fact, its my parish.

 

[mgrfin]

St. Maragret Mary is definately Catholic-- in fact, its my parish.

OK
DOMINUS VOBISCUM

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Anyone studying for the Priesthood since Vatican II, til now, has had the same foundation in latin as those in the time of Paul VI.

They get 4 years of hs latin, and another language, probably Spanish. Then in College they get 4 more years of latin, with a little Greek and Hebrew thrown in.

Practicing the Latin rite will take about 20 hours tops.

I don’t see it as a problem.
PAX
mgrfin

Agreed, but I am not sure why this was posted as a response to what I wrote.

I was trying to answer Richard’s question about will teenagers be attracted to Gregorian chant, will they leave behind the rock music at the mega churches.

My point was that obviously a lot of young people seem to say “yes we will!” because both traditional orders that practice the TLM (like FSSP, ICCRX) & folks who value a tradition influence celberation of the new rite (Norbetines) seem to be filled with a lot of folks who are younger.

 

[mac315]

As a Protestant I knelt up at the alter and put my hands under the table cloth like the others. When the priest came by with the wafers I crossed my arms across my chest, and he blessed me in Latin.

Richard

As a Protestant, you are forbidden from receiving the Holy Eucharist. That to which you irreverently refer to as “wafers” is, we believe, the actual Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. By all means, I would encourage you to continue to attend the service but respectfully request that you refrain from partaking in the Holy Eucharist. It is not only a disrespectful sacrilege for you to do so but is also detrimental to your soul to commit such desecration to a Holy Sacrament which you clearly do not understand.

 

[NMJenny]

Mac, I think you misunderstood Richard’s post–while I agree that he is talking about the Body and Blood of Christ rather than a “wafer”, in reading his post, I understood that he simply received a blessing from the priest (as he had his arms crossed on his chest), and not the Eucharist…

 

[ASimpleSinner]

As a Protestant, you are forbidden from receiving the Holy Eucharist. That to which you irreverently refer to as “wafers” is, we believe, the actual Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. By all means, I would encourage you to continue to attend the service but respectfully request that you refrain from partaking in the Holy Eucharist. It is not only a disrespectful sacrilege for you to do so but is also detrimental to your soul to commit such desecration to a Holy Sacrament which you clearly do not understand.

Mac, I believe we are to understand he only received a blessing.

But I do share in your distaste for the use of the term “wafers”. As a an ex-Catholic who regularly takes is mother-in-law to Mass, one would expect he knew to call them hosts. Still, I will give the benifit of a doubt on that one.

 

[mac315]

Mac, I think you misunderstood Richard’s post–while I agree that he is talking about the Body and Blood of Christ rather than a “wafer”, in reading his post, I understood that he simply received a blessing from the priest (as he had his arms crossed on his chest), and not the Eucharist…

I hope I did misunderstand that and, if so, I beg his pardon. If not, I’m stickin’ to my guns.