Is Tridentine Mass Episcopal or Roman Catholic?

[Holy_Roller]

And for the record, I am not mocking them. What they do outside the Mass may in fact constitute a new exploration of spirituality. It just does not belong in the context of the Mass. All to frequently, such models of worship have violated the rubrics of the Mass.

Apparently, the Diocese of Oakland has programs that the others don’t? For your information, this diocese has Charismatic Healing Mass’ regularly. The laypeople worship the Lord during Mass exactly the way as in the picture that you mocked. Also, Bishop Allen Vegneron will be at our Charismatic Healing Mass on September 15th.

Here is the address for the News Letter if you want to get up to speed:

CCRO
P.O. Box 2063
Dublin, CA 94568

CCRO stands for “Catholic Charismatic Renewal Office”

In plain English, modern Catholics and Protestants worship together in this Diocese.

Richard

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Apparently, the Diocese of Oakland has programs that the others don’t? For your information, this diocese has Charismatic Healing Mass’ regularly. The laypeople worship the Lord during Mass exactly the way as in the picture that you mocked. Also, Bishop Allen Vegneron will be at our Charismatic Healing Mass on September 15th.

Here is the address for the News Letter if you want to get up to speed:

CCRO
P.O. Box 2063
Dublin, CA 94568

CCRO stands for “Catholic Charismatic Renewal Office”

In plain English, modern Catholics and Protestants worship together in this Diocese.

Richard

Given any number of objections I have raised, it is telling that you have focused in on this and accused me of “mocking”. Rather clearly, I stated that IS NOT for the Mass.

In plain English, if Catholics are opting to ape modern Pentecostals to augment their faith and do so in the context of the Mass, plainly, I worry for them.

The greatest miracle on earth happens daily. It happens in the Mass.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

BTW, if you have been worshipping with them since 1976, how is it you just recently started going to Mass again?

 

[jpaul]

I just returned from attending beautiful Traditional Latin Mass, but I’m not sure whether it was an Episcopal or a Roman Catholic service. Today’s Thursday evening 6:00 PM service was listed as the Vigil of St. Lawrence (Comm. St. Romanus) Mass. The priest wore a funny looking black hat on the way in and then took it off. He put the hat back on just before he left the alter. Here is the link for the church:

stmargmaryoak.org/

Your help identifying whether it was Episcopal or Roman Catholic will be greatly appreciated, because I’m not sure what denomination?

Anyway, the church pictures at the Internet site look washed out compared to being there. The carpeting is bright Red, there is indirect lighting behind the alter, there were colorful statues, and the sun on the stained glass windows during the 6:00 PM Mass was a sight to be hold. If there are any questions, I will be glad to answer them.

As a Protestant I knelt up at the alter and put my hands under the table cloth like the others. When the priest came by with the wafers I crossed my arms across my chest, and he blessed me in Latin.

Richard

Peace and all-good!

“Wherefore, as the Holy Spirit says:
Today, if you should hear his voice,
harden not yur hearts…” (Heb. 3: 7)

Our good Lord is call you home. I will be praying for you brother.

Ave Maria!

jpaul

 

[Holy_Roller]

BTW, if you have been worshipping with them since 1976, how is it you just recently started going to Mass again?

Well, the Mass is not an obligation for us Protestants, so we can drop out for long periods. When my wife and I encounter your attitude we stay out of sight for a while. Let face it, narrow or wide, it’s their church, not ours.

Like you have probably guessed, there are quite a few Charismatic Catholics sitting in comfortable upholstered seats finding new life in the Spirit. Listening to professional musicians, romping around with us too, and dancing before the Lord like Holly Rollers. We all experience exuberant praise at our prayer meetings, whether Catholic or Protestant.

Like I mentioned before, the music in our mega church is contemporary Christian Rock, but on the Catholic side during the Catholic Healing Mass the music is directly from the Assembly of God, which of course, is unmistakably Pentecostal. Whether any of this will spill over into the Tridentine Mass with its Gregorian Chants is a good question for this thread. And I think it will.

A good example is on the Charismatic Catholic side of the equation: If you send for our Bulletin (the address is posted in my above message) you will notice the Litany of Praise, which simply lists phrases from scripture that remind us of who Jesus is. It appears in every Burning Bush Bulletin, so you can’t miss it. I assume that if it was spoken in Latin it could also be part of the Tridentine Mass like other Litany? Is that correct? I hope so, because when we begin to praise the Lord even in spite of what we think of or feel, a marvelous dynamic occurs. Our faith acknowledges that God is worthy to be praised because of who He is, Period!

Richard

 

[Dauphin]

Apparently, the Diocese of Oakland has programs that the others don’t? For your information, this diocese has Charismatic Healing Mass’ regularly. The laypeople worship the Lord during Mass exactly the way as in the picture that you mocked. Also, Bishop Allen Vegneron will be at our Charismatic Healing Mass on September 15th.

Here is the address for the News Letter if you want to get up to speed:

CCRO
P.O. Box 2063
Dublin, CA 94568

CCRO stands for “Catholic Charismatic Renewal Office”

In plain English, modern Catholics and Protestants worship together in this Diocese.

Richard

That’s extremely sad. This self-indulgent charismatic nonsense has no place in the Mass. I hope people don’t leave their pews and start screeching and dancing like fools during the consecration of the Eucharist.

This “Catholic Charismatic Renewal” is Satan’s main front in the church. It’s his way of mocking the Holy Sacrifice of The Mass.

 

[vern_humphrey]

That’s extremely sad. This self-indulgent charismatic nonsense has no place in the Mass. I hope people don’t leave their pews and start screeching and dancing like fools during the consecration of the Eucharist.

This “Catholic Charismatic Renewal” is Satan’s main front in the church. It’s his way of mocking the Holy Sacrifice of The Mass.

Why say something like that? What does it profit us to attack fellow Catholics?

Let me point out that Saint Paul was what today we call Charismatic – he tells us he has talked in tongues, and sets forth rules for doing it.

 

[obadiah]

Why say something like that? What does it profit us to attack fellow Catholics?

Let me point out that Saint Paul was what today we call Charismatic – he tells us he has talked in tongues, and sets forth rules for doing it.

What the Charismatics and Pentecostals do is not the Biblical Speaking in tongues. Try taking a look at the Book of Acts. They spoke REAL languages, not the gibberish happening in Pentecostal Churches.
A Greek Orthodox Priest told me he was at one of those meetings once and heard some people speaking Greek, so he went over to them and realized they were cursing God in very bad gutter Greek.

 

[vern_humphrey]

What the Charismatics and Pentecostals do is not the Biblical Speaking in tongues. Try taking a look at the Book of Acts. They spoke REAL languages, not the gibberish happening in Pentecostal Churches.

First Corinthians, 12, 4-10

4 There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit;
5 there are different forms of service but the same Lord;
6 there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone.
7 To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit.
8 To one is given through the Spirit the expression of wisdom; to another the expression of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit;
10 to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues.

First Corinthians 14, 27-28

27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three, and each in turn, and one should interpret.
28 But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God.

Clearly what Saint Paul is talking about is not what happened at Pentecost, but something different. People were impelled to speak – usually in strange words – and someone else was impelled to interpret. We may not like it, but Paul himself did it.

A Greek Orthodox Priest told me he was at one of those meetings once and heard some people speaking Greek, so he went over to them and realized they were cursing God in very bad gutter Greek.

I’m not sure what you mean by that – does this apply to all Charismatics? It’s kind of like branding all priests for the sexual misconduct of a few.

 

[dessert]

What is the ’ TAB." ? Youv mentioned it more than once. We use a candle to show the Eucharist is in the Tabernacle. Every time I pass the Altar, I cross myself and reverance the Temple.:byzsoc: :angel1:

Yes it is suppose to mean Tabernacle I get lazy.

The candle is a nice idea. Our larger candles are lit when the mass is happening and put on the altar but not the altar with the tabernacle. So this means that the host is in the tabernacle but no candle lit at times. Hmmmm this is an interesting thought. The Church I am in the tabernacle is on an altar to the side, with the crucifix above. We mostly bow, some genuflect. Some do nothing

Where is the Eucharist if the candle is not lit? Or is your Tabernacle put away each time until mass?
Dessert

 

[dessert]

Well, the Mass is not an obligation for us Protestants, so we can drop out for long periods. When my wife and I encounter your attitude we stay out of sight for a while. Let face it, narrow or wide, it’s their church, not ours.

Like you have probably guessed, there are quite a few Charismatic Catholics sitting in comfortable upholstered seats finding new life in the Spirit. Listening to professional musicians, romping around with us too, and dancing before the Lord like Holly Rollers. We all experience exuberant praise at our prayer meetings, whether Catholic or Protestant.

Like I mentioned before, the music in our mega church is contemporary Christian Rock, but on the Catholic side during the Catholic Healing Mass the music is directly from the Assembly of God, which of course, is unmistakably Pentecostal. Whether any of this will spill over into the Tridentine Mass with its Gregorian Chants is a good question for this thread. And I think it will.

A good example is on the Charismatic Catholic side of the equation: If you send for our Bulletin (the address is posted in my above message) you will notice the Litany of Praise, which simply lists phrases from scripture that remind us of who Jesus is. It appears in every Burning Bush Bulletin, so you can’t miss it. I assume that if it was spoken in Latin it could also be part of the Tridentine Mass like other Litany? Is that correct? I hope so, because when we begin to praise the Lord even in spite of what we think of or feel, a marvelous dynamic occurs. Our faith acknowledges that God is worthy to be praised because of who He is, Period!

Richard

There are quite a few Catholic Contempery Rock music.

Check out Gretchen Harris ; Sing of Mary and Sing to the Lord She crosses over very nicely sounds like Evie Turnquist music

I had a hard time getting over her divorce.
Had a hard time accepting that that could happen to Evie.

There are so many more and you can listen to some demos on Catholic Co. .com
Some are only sold on this but other artists have gone to secular because their stuff wasn’t selling.
Gretchen did this on her latest which I still need to get.
Check it out you will be surprised and your kids will too.
EWTN has many youth programs on with the young people in high and college and very involved in music.
Take care ; In Christ Dessert

 

[mac315]

Truthfully, I think that you are making a mountain out of a mole hill, and that you are talking down on me.

Keep in mind that, as a former Catholic who is attending a Charismatic Church regularly, I can be forgiven and reconciled to God through the Sacrament of Penance.

The Burning Bush Catholic Charismatic Renewal, which I am a member, is also under the Diocese of Oakland, as with Saint Margaret Mary Church where I attend the Tridentine Mass last night, as with the Priests who I do Chaplaincy with at VA Hospital, etc, etc.

Catholics usually don’t talk down on me, and yes, it’s a wafer.

Richard

You consider my advice to you on something that could effect the eternal state of your soul to be “making a mountain out of a mole hill?” Sir, I did not intend to speak down to you but now feel obligated to do so as you are at a much lower level of understanding in these matters.

If indeed you are a former Catholic as you claim, you should know this is not a wafer. Your insistence on referring to it as such is disrespectful to true Catholics and your lack of respect for Catholic beliefs and culture comes across as quite arrogant. You were obviously ill-educated as a “former Catholic” or you would understand my previous concerns. By telling me to keep in mind that you can be forgiven you have also indicated to me that you haven’t yet. As a former Catholic, you should also know that receiving the Blessed Sacrament in a state a mortal sin (e.g. apostasy) is a sin in itself.

The fact that you feel other Catholics “usually don’t talk down on you,” I believe, is indicative of the fact that there are many poorly catechized Catholics out there clinging to one another. Sadly, a true case of the blind leading the blind. If there is anything positive I can glean from your desecration of the most Blessed Sacrament it is this: you and those like you are living, breathing testimony to the utter debacle, total failure and extreme detriment that the “liberal spirit of ecumenism” has had on the One True Faith.

For the Love of God and your fellow man, REPENT! Please don’t claim to know and be a Catholic and spread false Catholic teaching. I won’t make another mountain out of a mole hill by telling you the consequences that may have.

Dominus vobiscum

 

[obadiah]

Yes it is suppose to mean Tabernacle I get lazy.

The candle is a nice idea. Our larger candles are lit when the mass is happening and put on the altar but not the altar with the tabernacle. So this means that the host is in the tabernacle but no candle lit at times. Hmmmm this is an interesting thought. The Church I am in the tabernacle is on an altar to the side, with the crucifix above. We mostly bow, some genuflect. Some do nothing

Where is the Eucharist if the candle is not lit? Or is your Tabernacle put away each time until mass?
Dessert

Our Tabernacles look like little Churches, they are always on the Altar Table, towards the back. It always has the Eucharist inside.
Sometimes instead of a candle there is an oil lamp (lampada)
It is always lit, I believe it is called the unsleeping light but I could be wrong on that one.

 

[obadiah]

I’m not sure what you mean by that – does this apply to all Charismatics? It’s kind of like branding all priests for the sexual misconduct of a few.

All I meant by that story about the Greek Priest, is you have to be very careful about spiritual manifestations of any kind. Look what happened with Joseph Smith and his visions.
Not that Carismatics are anything like Mormons, all I’m saying is be careful.

 

[vern_humphrey]

All I meant by that story about the Greek Priest, is you have to be very careful about spiritual manifestations of any kind. Look what happened with Joseph Smith and his visions.

I’d just as soon not, if you don’t mind.

Not that Carismatics are anything like Mormons, all I’m saying is be careful.

That’s what Paul said, too. Use it sparingly. But to say “Talking in Tongues” is not scripturally founded is wrong.

 

[bpbasilphx]

<<Apparently, the Diocese of Oakland has programs that the others don‚t? For your information, this diocese has Charismatic Healing Mass‚ regularly.>>

How do you get any better contact with the healing power of the Holy Spirit than through the Body and Blood of Christ?

 

[vern_humphrey]

<<Apparently, the Diocese of Oakland has programs that the others don‚t? For your information, this diocese has Charismatic Healing Mass‚ regularly.>>

How do you get any better contact with the healing power of the Holy Spirit than through the Body and Blood of Christ?

We have traditionally had Masses devoted to various purposes – including Thanksgiving and Requem Masses. There’s nothing wrong with devoting a Mass to healing

 

[obadiah]

I’d just as soon not, if you don’t mind.

That’s what Paul said, too. Use it sparingly. But to say “Talking in Tongues” is not scripturally founded is wrong.

Have you ever been to a Pentecostal Church? I’m thinking ’ Full Gospel ’ or ’ Apostolic Faith’ those are two Trinitarian Churches, they can get fairly wild sometimes, every body shouting, jumping around, screaming, talking in tongues all at once.
I have been to some very beautiful Catholic Charismatic Masses back in the 70s. I’m not talking about them, they are within the Catholic Church, and have the approval of the Bishop. I feel if it’s done within that context in an orderly manner, then it’s good. I couldn’t see it happening in the Orthodox Church, but I heard about something like that years ago.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Like I mentioned before, the music in our mega church is contemporary Christian Rock, but on the Catholic side during the Catholic Healing Mass the music is directly from the Assembly of God, which of course, is unmistakably Pentecostal. Whether any of this will spill over into the Tridentine Mass with its Gregorian Chants is a good question for this thread. And I think it will…

…you will notice the Litany of Praise, which simply lists phrases from scripture that remind us of who Jesus is. It appears in every Burning Bush Bulletin, so you can’t miss it. I assume that if it was spoken in Latin it could also be part of the Tridentine Mass like other Litany? Is that correct?

No. It is not correct. The very reason for the return of the TLM as an extraordinary rite of the Roman Church is, in part, to return a liturgy that is not to be tampered with, modernized, or added to in this fashion.

You certainly will not see rock bands, and it will not be kosher to add prayers as you mention so long as they are in Latin.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

We have traditionally had Masses devoted to various purposes – including Thanksgiving and Requem Masses. There’s nothing wrong with devoting a Mass to healing

I agree with that. But the two are not to be understood to be one in the same. Namely a Mass offered with special intention for healing the sick, is not exclusively in the domain of the Charismatic movement.



In fact in every Byzantine Catholic Liturgy (Mass) the following is prayed before communion:

O Lord, I believe and profess that You are truly Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. Accept me as a partaker of Your mystical supper, O Son of God; for I will not reveal Your mystery Your to Your enemies, nor will I give You a kiss as did Judas, but like the thief, I confess to You:

Remember me O Lord, when You shall come into Your kingdom.

Remember me O Master, when You shall come into Your kingdom.

Remember me O Holy One, when You shall come into Your kingdom.

May the partaking of Your Holy Mysteries, O Lord, be not for my judgment or condemnation, but for the healing of soul and body.

O Lord, I believe and profess that this which I am about to receive, is truly Your most precious Body and Your life-giving Blood, which, I pray, make me worthy to receive for the remission of all my sins and for life everlasting. Amen.

O God, be merciful to me, a sinner.

O God, cleanse me of my sins and have mercy on me.

O Lord, forgive me, for I have sinned without number.

In a real and true sense, ALL Masses are healing Masses, all sacraments provide healing.

Catholics have always understood this to be the case. That is why Masses are offered for the living and the dead.