Is Union with God Possible?

[CharlesLouis]

Do You remember
the warm evening
You came
and sat
with me
for ten
minutes
just
inside
the stone wall
of
the apple
orchard
until the sun
had gone down
behind
the silent
New England
woods?

from: In the Wheat : Songs in Your Presence
http://geocities.com/clcing/CLC4.jpg

 

[cheddarsox]

seperation from god is impossible.

cheddar

 

[Fergal]

cheddarsox:

seperation from god is impossible.

cheddar

YAHOOOOO! I’m off to rob a bank and maybe then pick up my neighbours wife along the way home!!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Fergal:

YAHOOOOO! I’m off to rob a bank and maybe then pick up my neighbours wife along the way home!!

You dare do that, and I bet Jesus will be right there ready to forgive you if you want, making that separation temporary, and the pain associated therewith as labor pains announcing the birth of the New Being, which we can then kill the fatted calf and celebrate.

Unless you’re a vegan, in which case we’ll fix up whatever feast is most appropriate.

You can separate yourself, but you cannot prevent God from bringing you back in, so I suppose you can hide but you can’t avoid being found.

Here’s some other things that cannot force separation:
Rom 8:

35 What will separate us from the love of Christ? Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or the sword? 36 As it is written: “For your sake we are being slain all the day; we are looked upon as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, 9 nor future things, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, 10 nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Alan

 

[Della]

Alan, you will notice in the passage you cited that the only thing/person not mentioned that can separate us from the love of God is ourselves.

God will love us even if we are in hell, but human beings can take themselves out of the loving hand of God by deliberately and with full knowledge of what they are doing commit mortal sins, which is our way of rejecting God’s love. Yes?

As to union with God being possible. Yes, it is possible. At least Paul thought so and the great Saints and Doctors of the Church, such as St. Teresa of Avila, and Jesus himself, of course.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Oh, and yes, Divine Union with God is in fact possible. That is a more intimate connection to the Lord than the literal meaning of His word, into transforming union leading to divine union.

The ways to this union could be many, but contemplative prayer is a good place to look, for example in the CCC 2697-2724.

An excerpt (emphasis mine):
CCC 2724:

Contemplative prayer is the simple expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gaze of faith fixed on Jesus, an attentiveness to the Word of God, a silent love. It achieves real union with the prayer of Christ to the extent that it makes us share in his mystery.

There’s so much more about union it’s wonderful. Yes, union is not only possible, but in a certain way unavoidable. Every time we worthily receive the Eucharist we are brought into union.

To understand and appreciate this union, contemplative prayer and teachings on the spiritual journey have been a great help to me. Here’s kind of what it feels like, except I think I’m just getting past stanza one, maybe…
Dark Night of the Soul:

**STANZAS OF THE SOUL **

1. *On a dark night, Kindled in love with yearnings—oh, happy chance!—
   I went forth without being observed, My house being now at rest. *

2.* In darkness and secure, By the secret ladder, disguised—oh, happy chance!—
In darkness and in concealment, My house being now at rest.*

3.* In the happy night, In secret, when none saw me,
Nor I beheld aught, Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart.*

4.* This light guided me More surely than the light of noonday
To the place where he (well I knew who!) was awaiting me— A place where none appeared.*

5.* Oh, night that guided me, Oh, night more lovely than the dawn,
Oh, night that joined Beloved with lover, Lover transformed in the Beloved!*

6.* Upon my flowery breast, Kept wholly for himself alone,
There he stayed sleeping, and I caressed him, And the fanning of the cedars made a breeze.*

7.* The breeze blew from the turret As I parted his locks;
With his gentle hand he wounded my neck And caused all my senses to be suspended.*

8.* I remained, lost in oblivion; My face I reclined on the Beloved.
All ceased and I abandoned myself, Leaving my cares forgotten among the lilies.*

What makes the night so dark? The absence of anxiety and worldly concerns, I think. There are no worldly distractions. The soul must not feel comfortable venturing away from home in search of its lover, when it is not free due to anxiety and worldly concerns of the owner. Achieving interior silence is the best way to let that soul feel confident enough to venture out and look for union with God and others. Of course I just made all this up, so take it for what it’s worth. This is the union we seek, and to the extent we fail to become perfect in this life, there is purgatory to help us get the rest of the way to Divine Union.

Alan

 

[Annunciata]

AlanFromWichita:

Oh, and yes, Divine Union with God is in fact possible. That is a more intimate connection to the Lord than the literal meaning of His word, into transforming union leading to divine union.

The ways to this union could be many, but contemplative prayer is a good place to look, for example in the CCC 2697-2724.

An excerpt (emphasis mine):

There’s so much more about union it’s wonderful. Yes, union is not only possible, but in a certain way unavoidable. Every time we worthily receive the Eucharist we are brought into union.

To understand and appreciate this union, contemplative prayer and teachings on the spiritual journey have been a great help to me. Here’s kind of what it feels like, except I think I’m just getting past stanza one, maybe…

[/indent]What makes the night so dark? The absence of anxiety and worldly concerns, I think. There are no worldly distractions. The soul must not feel comfortable venturing away from home in search of its lover, when it is not free due to anxiety and worldly concerns of the owner. Achieving interior silence is the best way to let that soul feel confident enough to venture out and look for union with God and others. Of course I just made all this up, so take it for what it’s worth. This is the union we seek, and to the extent we fail to become perfect in this life, there is purgatory to help us get the rest of the way to Divine Union.

Alan Beautiful Alan…I find this whole post very touching… and affirming…thank you.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Della:

Alan, you will notice in the passage you cited that the only thing/person not mentioned that can separate us from the love of God is ourselves.

God will love us even if we are in hell, but human beings can take themselves out of the loving hand of God by deliberately and with full knowledge of what they are doing commit mortal sins, which is our way of rejecting God’s love. Yes?

As to union with God being possible. Yes, it is possible. At least Paul thought so and the great Saints and Doctors of the Church, such as St. Teresa of Avila, and Jesus himself, of course.

Yes, I noticed that too. If I read you right, you are saying separation is possible, but also agreeing that union is possible. I agree with that.

I just like to see how well I can support whatever view seems the most bizarre at any given time. I sort of excused myself for posting that because a) I love Romans 8 and look for excuses to quote it, and b) I considered to think of “separation” in terms of external events and not internal, thus fortifying my other excuse.

I just so love the part about No Condemnation and generally all of Romans 8 that if I see a hole of any shape I will try to cram it in there.

I agree with your observations and conclusions, and I appreciate your responsibility in pointing out that (semi-intentional) omission.

Alan

 

[Fergal]

cheddarsox:

seperation from god is impossible.

cheddar

How would satan feel about that statement?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Fergal:

How would satan feel about that statement?

satan has feelings?

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Separation from God must be possible, otherwise we would not have free will. The ability to love must include the ability to reject love.

Regarding union with God, I would argue that this is what we’re meant for! In the Orthodox church, it’s called Theosis, and in the West, the saints speak of it as Divinization. Athanasius refers to it when he writes, “God became Man, that Man might become God.” And Maximos the Confessor states, “What God is by nature, Man will be by grace.”

Stratford Caldecott wrote a very nice article in which he explains the nature of this union–it occurs on the level of the will/intellect (the intellective soul) and not on the level of being. He quotes the author of the Cloud of Unknowing who called the desire to be united with God on the level of being as “devil’s madness”–such a unity implies the annihilation of the creature in God, not the assumption of the creature into Divinity (of which assumption the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a mystery and prefiguring). In this union of wills, we forget our own beings and are lost in the being of God, but we ourselves do not cease to be.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Deo Volente:

Grace & Peace!

Dear Mark,

That was an excellent post. I almost followed it I think, but I will reread it.

It emphasizes that we do not know the nature of the Cloud, although we look forward to a union of the kind we cannot imagine since we are pretty used to this idea of “being.” At least if I understand you right. If I understand you wrong, I still enjoyed it.

Anyway you inspired me to think of part of Jesus’ great prayer in John 17:
John 17:

18 As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world. 19 And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth. 20 "I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.

I don’t think there’s any question that unity with both Christ and His Father is His intent here. If so, someone please help me read this properly.

Alan

 

[TOP]

I think that a union with God is possible here on earth through Spirit, if we turn to Him and call. I think it means we need to turn away from earth though and acknowledge Christ as our Avocate.So He may present us to God in one Spirit. Sound right?

 

[springbreeze]

Is union with God possible? Yes

Are we seperated from God by sin and distraction? Yes

Are we created to live in union with God? Yes

Do we cause this union from God to be lost? Yes

Are we worthy of union with God? No

Still do souls experience union with God? Yes

Is God Merciful then? Yes

Is God’s Mercy born out of His infinite Love for us? Yes

What should we do? Seek the One, God, who loves us first and seek Him with all our hearts, minds and spirit;keep persevering and patiently awaiting union with Him in this life and the next as He sees fit to grace us with.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[cheddarsox]

Perhaps sin and worldly distractions cause us to ignor, or not acknowlege our union with the divine. But the union itself is not lost. As soon as we are willing to see, there it is.

I am sure there are others out there who even in the midst of sin knew the divine was there beside them, with them the whole time.We can shut our eyes, close our ears and humm and call out, I don’t see you, I can’t hear you, nah nah nah , but that doesn’t change the fact that the divine is right there.

Sort of like marriage, it is still there, even if we choose divorce, and live as if it is not. We ignore the truth, but the truth doesn’t alter.

cheddar

 

[cheddarsox]

Fergal:

How would satan feel about that statement?

Like the biggest fool in the universe, wasting all this time lying to himself and everyone else.

cheddar

 

[AlanFromWichita]

cheddar, do you study or practice any forms of contemplative prayer, such as Lectio? :yawn:

Just wondering. Based on the way you write, I wondered if you’ve delved into the “apophatic” tradition of the Church, such as the Cloud of the Unknowing, Dark Night, etc. You are quite welcome to decline to answer if you find it irrelevant, tangential, or otherwise have reason not to answer.

I appreciate your way of saying things concisely. I envy it so I hope you don’t mind me taking notice.

Alan

 

[springbreeze]

cheddarsox:

Perhaps sin and worldly distractions cause us to ignor, or not acknowlege our union with the divine. But the union itself is not lost. As soon as we are willing to see, there it is.

I am sure there are others out there who even in the midst of sin knew the divine was there beside them, with them the whole time.We can shut our eyes, close our ears and humm and call out, I don’t see you, I can’t hear you, nah nah nah , but that doesn’t change the fact that the divine is right there.

Sort of like marriage, it is still there, even if we choose divorce, and live as if it is not. We ignore the truth, but the truth doesn’t alter.

cheddar

Dear Cheddar

I see what you are saying and you are right, God desires union with His creatures but we do have free will and if we were crazy enough to choose to reject God then that union is broken by ourselves.

God is faithful and merciful and never forgets His covenant with us, we on the other hand, can forget and/or reject that covenant. Therefore causing seperation from God. It’s not over until the ‘fat lady sings’ though, and union with God is always possible, by His grace, in this life. However at the point of death, if that soul still rejects God then that is sealed for all eternity and union is lost.

Union with God cannot be spoken about in broad sweeping terms, God is a God of gifts, everything is grace and gift and we choose to accept those gifts or refuse them. Some accept those gifts but never take the time to unwrap or understand them. So there are differing ways of union with God and differing degrees of union and as God made all people individually unique, one persons union with God is not the same as another persons union with God. That’s not to say we should individually go off from the Church, that would be spiritual suicide, but rather the interior life with God is individual and must, to be free from error, be constantly kept in check by what is revealed by the Catholic Church. Having said that we must not be afraid to respond to the interior stirrings of the Holy Spirit within us.

Next question, is union with God found outside of the Catholic Church? Yes I believe it is, though not to the fullest it could be as the Catholic Church is the fullness of Divinely revealed Truth and Revelation, Christ Jesus. The Church is His Bride and this is the ultimate union with God, to be so intimately united to Him as to be espoused.

Is union with God possible? Yes it is not only possible, it is what our lives are all about, it is what we are created for. Still souls never find it or when they do find it they don’t recognise it, or then find it some reject it, hence seperation and loss of union.

The Catholic Church teaches that when a soul commits a mortal sin, union with God is lost unless they intend or actually do make a confession of that sin and receive absolution. St Paul says, nothing can seperate us from God, nothing that is except ourselves.

The Holy Spirit comes to every soul and every soul is offered the gift of faith, those who refuse it knowing what it is, commit a sin against the Holy Spirit and this sin is never forgiven, this is what thrusts us into hell, this is ourselves refusing God knowingly. We put ourselves into hell.

God is always waiting on us, pursuing us to come to Himself ‘No-one can come to Me unless the Father draw him’. When we sin, the Holy Spirit convicts our consiences and inspires us by His strength and power to repent, confess and become reunited to God at whatever degree of union God has gifted to us.

“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.”
John 14:23

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Dear Teresa,

I hope you know by now that I do not wish to make light of your excellent points (a post I’d have been proud to claim btw) that silly seed of original sin insisted on jumping up while I was reading your post and made me laugh.

Therefore I’m either confessing and apologizing, or sharing the humor, as you prefer, of the thought I got when I read:

springbreeze:

Next question, is union with God found outside of the Catholic Church? Yes I believe it is, though not to the fullest it could be as the Catholic Church is the fullness of Divinely revealed Truth and Revelation, Christ Jesus. The Church is His Bride and this is the ultimate union with God, to be so intimately united to Him as to be espoused.

When I thought “union with God” and then “better union with God” as I read your post, immediately I got a flashback phrase from an old laundry detergent commercial, “whiter than white.”

OK so maybe it’s not rofl hilarious but the point is I enjoyed your post. There. That’s some of that succinct I was looking for.

Alan

[edit] if my own Catholic wife is any indication, than I would have my own union with God and a woman, in no other way. She is very much “more” Catholic and devoted than I, and she is priceless beyond her youthful nickname “jewels”

Becoming closer to God or our spouse, automatically brings all three of us closer, as when we went to premarital counseling the girl at Catholic Charities drew a triangle with God at the top, and Julie and me at the two bottow corners. Some reflection showed me that if any connection in this trinity-ish arrangement gets closer, that automatically ensures a certain closeness with the other two. Therefore, the marriage is a single entity composed of three parts, God, man, woman.

Also engineers will note that a triangle is inherently a stable building block, even with terminal points that are not rigid (and preferably not unless all connections shrink at the same rate and therefore don’t require an angle change but now I’m getting mathematically scrupulous). Disclosure: I might be biased since I was member of Triangle Fraternity (EE, Rose81).

I say all this (except the nerd stuff because I’m a nerd and proud of it ) because if union with a devoted Catholic woman is this great, how great can Divine Union be? If it’s so great that according to Christ the whole concept of our worldly marriage doesn’t matter, then it has to be one heck of a show to beat the love that I have now in Julie (aka Marmee79).

Alan

 

[springbreeze]

Dear Alan

You needn’t make any soft soap with me or any apologies. I have exchanged enough posts with you by now to know a little of your heart and know your intention is always on the kindest of tracks! There are no eggshells to tread on around me!

When I thought “union with God” and then “better union with God” as I read your post, immediately I got a flashback phrase from an old laundry detergent commercial, "whiter than white."

Hysterically funny. I suppose it could look like spiritual snobbery, ‘oh I’m a catholic therefore my union with God is superior to anyone else’s who is not Catholic’ . That’s not what I intended to say, although our Catholic product pound for pound is better value .

However the Catholic faith is a tough road to tread; it’s the hardest faith to follow, it truly is the narrow path. Faithfulness to the narrow path rather than feeling superior brings us to a profound humility, an unflinching obedience, a willingness to suffer, an acceptance of God’s Truth beyond our own powers of finite reasoning, a desire to love and love only as Christ Jesus loves and, in loving each other, human relationships are a reflection of that Divine Love.

Union with God is Love. Truth is Truth and in the fullness of Truth is the fullness of Love.

Thanks Alan for the good laugh, I always enjoy reading your posts and look out for them whenever I come to the forum.

Your marriage is a reflection of Divine Love. The Holy Trinity is all about family, however that is composed, for example, the family of the Church community, the family of friends, the family unit etc . When we live in union with God, that is live in Love, this can’t help but flow out of our hearst to others therefore making all relationships unified in this Love, ultimately bearing fruit.

As you rightly say Alan, union with God is never just about God and ourselves personally, it pervades everything in our lives.

God Bless you and your wife and much love and peace to you both

Teresa