Is Union with God Possible?

[springbreeze]

A few scriptural insights into Love and Union with God.

‘In the meantime, brothers, we wish you happiness; try to grow perfect; help one another. Be united; live in peace, and the God of love and peace will be with you.’ 2Cor 13:11

‘This is my commandment, that you love each other as I have loved you’ Jn 13:34

‘At one time you were far away from God and were his enemies because of the evil things you did and thought. But now, by means of the physical death of His Son, God has made you his friends, in order to bring you, holy, pure and faultless, into His presence.’ Col 1:21-22

‘Love is the fullness of the Law’

‘Learn from Me for I am gentle and humble in heart’

‘You should all agree among yourselves and be sympathetic; love the brothers, have compassion and be modest and humble. Never pay back one wrong with another, or an angry word with another one, instead, pay back with a blessing. That is what you are called to do, so that you inherit a blessing yourself’

‘Can the Lord’s favour be won by offering him sacrifice and victim, instead of obeying his Divine will? The Lord loves obedience better than any sacrifice, the attentive ear better than the fat of rams’

 

[mhansen]

cheddarsox:

Perhaps sin and worldly distractions cause us to ignor, or not acknowlege our union with the divine. But the union itself is not lost. As soon as we are willing to see, there it is.

I am sure there are others out there who even in the midst of sin knew the divine was there beside them, with them the whole time.We can shut our eyes, close our ears and humm and call out, I don’t see you, I can’t hear you, nah nah nah , but that doesn’t change the fact that the divine is right there.

cheddar

Wonderfully and beautifully put. This thread is evolving into an interesting example of the diversity of views concerning union with God. As for me, I tend toward cheddar’s viewpoint. To not have any type of union with God, to be cut off, as some people would say, would result in complete and total spiritual/psychological/physical annihilation. It would be Hell in the fullest sense of the word. We cannot be without God and yet exist. A complete contradiction in terms.

P.S. Alan - Check your messages!!!

 

[springbreeze]

mhansen:

Wonderfully and beautifully put. This thread is evolving into an interesting example of the diversity of views concerning union with God. As for me, I tend toward cheddar’s viewpoint. To not have any type of union with God, to be cut off, as some people would say, would result in complete and total spiritual/psychological/physical annihilation. It would be Hell in the fullest sense of the word. We cannot be without God and yet exist. A complete contradiction in terms.

P.S. Alan - Check your messages!!!

Dear friend

God sustaining human life and living in union with God are two very different things and doesn’t suggest unity of spirit, heart and mind with God just by the fact God allows us to live.

God is always present, that doesn’t mean people desire Him to be present to them.

People commit evil acts, have no sorrow or remorse and then it can be suggested they are in union with God just by the fact they are alive? That contradicts everything God has revealed to us.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[AlanFromWichita]

mhansen:

P.S. Alan - Check your messages!!!

Got it, read it, put it in queue.

Not that I am too busy but sometimes I let things “cook” a while, the way my piano teacher says it, and then comes back to it.

Or just say I’m a slacker. You know how I am. You can call me Alan or any name that suits you as the need arises! :whacky:

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

springbreeze:

Dear friend

God sustaining human life and living in union with God are two very different things and doesn’t suggest unity of spirit, heart and mind with God just by the fact God allows us to live.

God is always present, that doesn’t mean people desire Him to be present to them.

People commit evil acts, have no sorrow or remorse and then it can be suggested they are in union with God just by the fact they are alive? That contradicts everything God has revealed to us.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

If I told you where I heard this, I’d expect cries of, “ewww, you listen to her?”

Anyway once this woman who shall remain unnamed for the moment suggested, “God is a gentleman. He doesn’t force Himself on anyone.”

Note: (intended to be relevant, not a hint to her identity but oh well) this woman supposedly grew up physically, mentally abused and more by her father.

Alan

 

[springbreeze]

AlanFromWichita:

If I told you where I heard this, I’d expect cries of, “ewww, you listen to her?”

Anyway once this woman who shall remain unnamed for the moment suggested, “God is a gentleman. He doesn’t force Himself on anyone.”

Note: (intended to be relevant, not a hint to her identity but oh well) this woman supposedly grew up physically, mentally abused and more by her father.

Alan

Dear Alan

I can’t even make a second guess as to who the lady is (suppose I’ll never be a Sherlock Holmes!) .

Anyhow, whoever she is, I agree with her.

I don’t know, maybe I am missing something here about the nature of union with God. It’s very interesting reading everyone’s replies.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[mhansen]

springbreeze:

Dear friend

God sustaining human life and living in union with God are two very different things and doesn’t suggest unity of spirit, heart and mind with God just by the fact God allows us to live.

God is always present, that doesn’t mean people desire Him to be present to them.

People commit evil acts, have no sorrow or remorse and then it can be suggested they are in union with God just by the fact they are alive? That contradicts everything God has revealed to us.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

No ma’am. I’m quite aware of the difference between say, St. John of the Cross and his idea of union, and the “union” that occurs between God and man to sustain life.

For some reason, when I speak (or type), it’s easy to miss my point. Please forgive me.

What I was trying to say, and this will still probably come off as wrong, (it’s hard for me to explain myself) is that the union John describes is much, much more than simply not consciously sinning. It’s much deeper than that. It’s a complete eradication of ourselves. A dying to everything that is not God. De Caussade (Sacrament of the Present Moment) describes it as complete self-abandonment to the Divine Providence, which I believe is a more accurate and fuller expression of what union is than to state, quite simply and naively that “sin totally cuts us off from God, period.”, which seems to be implied (or directly stated) in many posts (here and otherwise) concerning this subject. I digress, and many saints and mystics would as well.

You yourself stated in your reply to my ill-worded post that God is always present. Isn’t that exactly what I said in a nutshell? Where exactly do our differences lie? As cheddar so eloquently said, “As soon as we are willing to see, there it is.”

Mike

P.S. Alan, glad you got it. Just double-checking. You’re no slacker, my friend!

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Thanks for your kind words, Alan!

AlanFromWichita:

…although we look forward to a union of the kind we cannot imagine since we are pretty used to this idea of “being.” At least if I understand you right. If I understand you wrong, I still enjoyed it.

I think this is true–we cannot imagine the depths of the union we will have with God, or rather, we can only imagine it until it happens, and whatever it is will be more wonderful than anything we could have thought up.

I like Caldecott’s distinction between a union of will and a union of being, though. Because our path is exemplified in Christ and mirrored in the life of the Virgin–Christ did not annihilate our humanity in his Divinity but assumed it. This means, to me, that our humanity is important, is a great gift–what we are fundamentally is somehow a means of grace. Which makes sense, I think. Jean Borella describes the graces of the perfected man as being supernaturally natural to him–that is, they are not natural to his being, but they become natural to him through grace.

This is why the Fall is so devastating–the graces bestowed on Adam, that made him what he was, that were supernaturally natural to him, were lost–they were not taken away or made unavailable to him, God did not take them away or cease showering his grace on him–Adam himself lost those graces which we can only regain through Christ in whom we find the completion of our humanity.

Thomas Merton, commenting on John the Divine, warns the seeker that, often, when the seeker receives an influx of grace, the temptation is to say, “I am becoming now like an angel!” When really, the seeker is becoming more human, more what he was meant to be. In this way of seeing things, grace is actually a part of what it means to be human, and our humanity is itself the vessel of that grace.

So, to effect a union with God on the level of being is actually to remove from us our humanity rather than to perfect it. It is to annihilate us. I sometimes wonder, though, if this is what is meant by the second death in the Apocalypse of John–the fire of God baptising the universe, burning up hell and death–essentially annihilating it in himself. I wonder about the souls of those who may be in hell (God forbid that there should be any!) and I wonder if, through their impenitence and unwillingness to turn to God in love, that God’s love, dreadful in majesty and glory, in an act of mercy, will remove from them their humanity in this way, removing from them what causes their pain (their humanity frustrated by their lack of love) and annihilating them in the process. Which, I further wonder, may be what they want all along. However dark this mercy may seem, it is still mercy. But this is mere speculation. May God liberate all suffering souls through Christ’s harrowing of hell!

However, the union of the will is a union of love, a union that preserves the being of both Lover and Beloved by which the Love between them can grow. Our humanity can be forgotten in God’s divinity, but it is still present. Remember that it is Mary’s “be it done according to your word” that allows her to conceive the Word of God–it is therefore our “Your will be done” to God which enables us to give birth to the Word in our own souls. And it is this birth that is part of our union with God, part of the new life in Christ in whom we find ourselves perfected.

The oracles of Greece said, “Know thyself!” As Christians, we know that to know Christ is to know ourselves–therefore we say, “Know Love!” and mean by it the same thing! As Caldecott later writes in his article, we are what God knows us to be, and what God knows us to be is found in Christ! What a glorious mystery that is!

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

 

[DBT]

mhansen:

For some reason, when I speak (or type), it’s easy to miss my point. Please forgive me.

What I was trying to say, and this will still probably come off as wrong, (it’s hard for me to explain myself) is that the union John describes is much, much more than simply not consciously sinning. It’s much deeper than that. It’s a complete eradication of ourselves.

Actually, I think you said it very well

Based on my limited understanding of the mystics (John and Teresa in particular), the complete “eradication of ourselves” occurs at a specific point in the spiritual life: the transforming union. They also speak at great length of other types of union that prepare one for this final, transforming union. This type of union is described by many of the mystics (including John and Teresa) as ecstasy or rapture. This is the brief, fleeting “loss of self” experienced as the absorbtion of our will and ceasation of distractions that sometimes occurs in contemplative prayer . . . a total gift from God.

For those who wonder if union with God really exists, they would serve themselves well to read and meditate on the poetry of St. John of the Cross. My personal favorites are The Spiritual Canticle and The Living Flame of Love which, in a few brief stanzas, encapsulates (IMHO) everything all the mystics have to say about union.

And lest anyone think union of this nature is limited to the cannonized Saints - then read St. Teresa. My take on what she has to say is that union is probably much more common than many of us might think.

 

[DBT]

Here’s a link to the poetry of St. John of the Cross:

www.carmelite.com/saints/john/works/p.htm

 

[DBT]

Hi Alan -

I thought you might enjoy this one from the St. John of the Cross link since I know you’re a big fan of The Cloud:

St. John of the Cross - Stanzas concerning an ecstasy experienced in high contemplation.
I entered into unknowing,
and there I remained unknowing
transcending all knowledge.

1. I entered into unknowing,
yet when I saw myself there,
without knowing where I was,
I understood great things;
I will not say what I felt
for I remained in unknowing
transcending all knowledge.

2. That perfect knowledge
was of peace and holiness
held at no remove
in profound solitude;
it was something so secret
that I was left stammering,
transcending all knowledge.

3. I was so 'whelmed,
so absorbed and withdrawn,
that my senses were left
deprived of all their sensing,
and my spirit was given
an understanding while not understanding,
transcending all knowledge.

4. He who truly arrives there
cuts free from himself;
all that he knew before
now seems worthless,
and his knowledge so soars
that he is left in unknowing
transcending all knowledge.

5. The higher he ascends
the less he understands,
because the cloud is dark
which lit up the night;
whoever knows this
remains always in unknowing
transcending all knowledge.

6. This knowledge in unknowing
is so overwhelming
that wise men disputing
can never overthrow it,
for their knowledge does not reach
to the understanding of not
understanding,
transcending all knowledge.

7. And this supreme knowledge
is so exalted
that no power of man or learning
can grasp it;
he who masters himself
will, with knowledge in
unknowing,
always be transcending.

8. And if you should want to hear:
this highest knowledge lies
in the loftiest sense
of the essence of God;
this is a work of his mercy,
to leave one without
understanding,
transcending all knowledge.

Sound familiar

With all the posts about The Cloud lately, I’ve been thinking a bit about the type of union he describes compared to that of St. John and St. Teresa. While their terminology might be different, I tend to think they’re saying pretty much the same thing.

When St. John and St. Teresa talk about ecstacy - the brief absorbtion of the will and ceasation of distractions during prayer - I think they’re on the same page as the author of The Cloud when he talks about being suspended between the cloud of unknowing (God) and the cloud of forgetting (our selves as defined by our thoughts - aka “distractions” during prayer).

For that brief period of time when God grants this gift (maybe 15 minutes to an hour according to the Saints), our will (desires) is completely “absorbed” by God and all notions of “self” are left behind.

Oh well, just a thought . . .

Dave.

 

[springbreeze]

mhansen:

No ma’am. I’m quite aware of the difference between say, St. John of the Cross and his idea of union, and the “union” that occurs between God and man to sustain life.

For some reason, when I speak (or type), it’s easy to miss my point. Please forgive me.

What I was trying to say, and this will still probably come off as wrong, (it’s hard for me to explain myself) is that the union John describes is much, much more than simply not consciously sinning. It’s much deeper than that. It’s a complete eradication of ourselves. A dying to everything that is not God. De Caussade (Sacrament of the Present Moment) describes it as complete self-abandonment to the Divine Providence, which I believe is a more accurate and fuller expression of what union is than to state, quite simply and naively that “sin totally cuts us off from God, period.”, which seems to be implied (or directly stated) in many posts (here and otherwise) concerning this subject. I digress, and many saints and mystics would as well.

You yourself stated in your reply to my ill-worded post that God is always present. Isn’t that exactly what I said in a nutshell? Where exactly do our differences lie? As cheddar so eloquently said, “As soon as we are willing to see, there it is.”

Mike

P.S. Alan, glad you got it. Just double-checking. You’re no slacker, my friend!

Dear friend

Thank you for your reply.

I have totally misread your posts. My apologies for that. I thought you were saying that those who reject God even have union with Him. You explain yourself very well. Entirely my fault.

Yes, I agree with you, refraining from sin by the grace of God is in itself not complete definition of union with God. As St Paul writes, ‘It is no longer I that live, but rather Christ Jesus’ (paraphrased).

Describing union with God is attempting to describe the undescribeable. But I’d agree with DBT (hello there to you DBT ) it probably happens much more than people realise and I think that alot of people do not recognise it as 'union ’ with God but explain it in their own words to themselves, such as being immersed in God etc, having said that they recognise they have had a profound ‘experience’ of God…

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[DBT]

springbreeze:

Describing union with God is attempting to describe the undescribeable. But I’d agree with DBT (hello there to you DBT ) it probably happens much more than people realise and I think that alot of people do not recognise it as 'union ’ with God but explain it in their own words to themselves, such as being immersed in God etc, having said that they recognise they have had a profound ‘experience’ of God.

Good to see you again Teresa!

Yes, I very much agree with the underlined part of your quote.

Dave.

 

[mhansen]

springbreeze:

Describing union with God is attempting to describe the undescribeable. But I’d agree with DBT (hello there to you DBT ) it probably happens much more than people realise and I think that alot of people do not recognise it as 'union ’ with God but explain it in their own words to themselves, such as being immersed in God etc, having said that they recognise they have had a profound ‘experience’ of God…

Thank you for your kind words and response!

I couldn’t agree with you more. Union is one of those “intangibles” that we have to experience to understand. It’s like fire. I can write about fire, describing it to you as best as I can, in every possible way that I can, but until you stick your hand in it, you won’t really understand just how hot it is!

I’d also like to give a big HELLO! to DBT, and give a big thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut here as well. I couldn’t agree more with your (DBT) remark about the differences (but core similarities), between John and Teresa. I think that those differences play out in all of us. I just spent some time with a dear friend of mine who will be starting a vocation to the Carthusians next month. To make a long story short, we were at the University of Chicago bookstore and I told him I was looking for a book that hadn’t been written yet: MINE. That is, a book of my personal experiences with God. I think each of the 90 billion collective people that have lived on this earth could each write their own book of experiences with God, and each would be unique, but at the same time similar. That’s the beauty of our individual, personal experiences with God.

Thanks to both of you for your posts.

Mike

 

[DBT]

mhansen:

I’d also like to give a big HELLO! to DBT

And to you as well, Mike

This is a wonderful thread! I’ll be quiet now so others can speak their piece . . .

Dave.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Deo Volente:

So, to effect a union with God on the level of being is actually to remove from us our humanity rather than to perfect it. It is to annihilate us.

This is exactly the understanding I got from listening to hours of tapes of Fr. Thomas Keating (beware detractors may interject and tell you he’s heretical but I think that’s misinformation) and his explanations of the spiritual journey.

There is a true self, made in the image of God, and a false self, which consitutes our autonomous, emotional, judgmental, and all that stuff, component of ourselves borne in original sin and fed through faulty societal upgringing.

This false self must be dismantled, and through contemplative prayer, invited by many by attempting to achieve inner silence, the Holy Spirit can do just that.

Sometimes when the intense light of the Spirit shines on our souls in contemplation, it reveals some ugliness and there can be some gyrations the soul goes through – all the safer if you have a good SD. However, it can completely dismantle (or annihilate to use your term) that false self.

This is what we self-described “contemplatives” do in order to obey the order of Jesus that we must deny our very selves. Obviously He is not talking about denying our true self, or that we were made in the image of God, but our false selves which are entirely worldly and act as a two way filter so that nobody can either see nor speak directly to our true selves for the bias that the “dirty window” of the false self adds.

Also note that the language of God in contemplation is silence. When human language is involved, that automatically involves the intellect, memory, and societal conventions of those words which is why we need to silence them in order to hear the stirrings of the Spirit. Keep in mind that anything we say, one way or other, explicitly or subliminally, conveys what is in our heart one way or the other. In our words choices, our tone of voice, what words are emphasized, or whatever.

This is why we need to get control of our emotions, because our emotional infrastructure IMO equates roughly to the “false self” that we build ever since we were convinced as a baby that we are separate from the rest of the world and singularly held responsible for our actions. This conditions children at an early age to be very confused about the notion of justice, mercy, and punishment.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

DBT:

And to you as well, Mike

This is a wonderful thread! I’ll be quiet now so others can speak their piece . . .

Dave.

Please forgive me but I often see irony and humor where I rather suspect none was intended.

As a contemplative, I found it interesting that you are going to be silent so others can speak their “piece.” I immediately thought of “speaking our peace” which would, in essence, be to shut up.

Therefore if I were to finagle your statement using contemplative ideas in an unfair way, I could misinterpret you as suggesting we all take a quiet spell in silence. Come to think of that, it sounds like a good idea. I think I’ll quit posting for a while and go do a centering prayer.

So you yielded the floor, I made the joke that in so yielding you encouraged others not to take it, then I ruined the whole thing by going ahead and taking the floor anyway.

Gee, I’m so mixed up. Good thing I’m happy, or I’d be a confused wreck.

Alan

 

[cheddarsox]

AlanFromWichita:

cheddar, do you study or practice any forms of contemplative prayer, such as Lectio? :yawn:

Just wondering. Based on the way you write, I wondered if you’ve delved into the “apophatic” tradition of the Church, such as the Cloud of the Unknowing, Dark Night, etc. You are quite welcome to decline to answer if you find it irrelevant, tangential, or otherwise have reason not to answer.

I appreciate your way of saying things concisely. I envy it so I hope you don’t mind me taking notice.

Alan

I do practice contemplative prayer. I am not very familiar with the terms you use after that. I am familiar with some of the writings and experiences of various Catholic mystics, though I haven’t read any in a long time.

I know most of what I know from personal experience, and I would encourage people to spend more time persuing a relationship to the devine and less reading about other people’s persuits. Many get “hung up” when they read of such experiences, fall intoself doubt, assume such are only for “the great one’s” and deny themselves the gifts the divine has for them.

Think about this…the great saints…not one of them is remembered for their devotion to ANOTHER saint, they are remembered for their devotion to the divine. While their lives and stories can provide inspiration, they can just as easily provide distraction.

This isn’t Hollywood, we don’t get “in” because we know someone who knows someone, who knows someone. If Jesus had a message and gift for us it is this…We can approach the father…ourselves!!! The veil was torn, the way was made.

The divine is waiting, do not let your fear of the Lord keep you from it.

cheddar

 

[cheddarsox]

springbreeze:

Dear friend

God sustaining human life and living in union with God are two very different things and doesn’t suggest unity of spirit, heart and mind with God just by the fact God allows us to live.

God is always present, that doesn’t mean people desire Him to be present to them.

People commit evil acts, have no sorrow or remorse and then it can be suggested they are in union with God just by the fact they are alive? That contradicts everything God has revealed to us.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

I have to say I respectfully disagree with your views on this. It may be what God has revealed to you, but not to all of us.

For humans, it may be “desirable” to think that God behaves in such a way, a human sort of way, denying union with those who reject him, but the divine is not human, and does not act in human ways, according to human understandings.

I cannot pretend to know what will happen “when the fat lady sings” but I know what is truth now, and nothing, not even ourselves, can seperate us from the love of the divine.

respectfully,
cheddar

 

[mhansen]

Great post, Alan.

Great explanation of the “true self” and “false self.” Like you, I don’t believe there is anything innately wrong with our humanity. It is the “false self” that must be eradicated to let our “true self” attain union.

Again, great post.

Mike