Is using animals for their fur moral or immoral?

[LilyM]

Genesis 3:21: “The LORD God made garments of skin [fur] for Adam and his wife and clothed them.”

'Nuff said, I think

 

[kbwall]

It always amazes me that people who profess ‘compassion’ for fur animals have none for the people who make a living in the fur industry.

How will they earn a living? How will they feed their families? Will you personally underwrite their retraining and find them other jobs?

You were complaining earlier about abortionists. They have jobs and need to eat too.

And what about other jobs that I bet you consider immoral? Porn workers need money to eat. Drug dealers need their money too. As I said earlier, simply because some have made it their livelihood does not necessarily make it moral or immoral.

To let animals die and let the worms eat them when people need coats or food is wasteful and irresponsible, and I’d say immoral.

This is all well and good, but from what I understand, aren’t coats made of genuine fur expensive? I don’t claim to know a lot about this, so if you can correct me, that’s fine. But as I understand it, fur coats are pretty expensive. Fur coats are pretty much the last thing I think of when I think of poor, homeless people. Therefore, claiming that animals should be used for their furs because some humans can’t afford proper clothing is hollow, since if they were too poor to afford synthetic clothing, then they’re definitely too poor to buy furs, and thus it wouldn’t help them very much anyway.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Outstanding points all, kbwall. thank you!

You were complaining earlier about abortionists. They have jobs and need to eat too.

And what about other jobs that I bet you consider immoral? Porn workers need money to eat. Drug dealers need their money too. As I said earlier, simply because some have made it their livelihood does not necessarily make it moral or immoral.

This is all well and good, but from what I understand, aren’t coats made of genuine fur expensive? I don’t claim to know a lot about this, so if you can correct me, that’s fine. But as I understand it, fur coats are pretty expensive. Fur coats are pretty much the last thing I think of when I think of poor, homeless people. Therefore, claiming that animals should be used for their furs because some humans can’t afford proper clothing is hollow, since if they were too poor to afford synthetic clothing, then they’re definitely too poor to buy furs, and thus it wouldn’t help them very much anyway.

 

[meltzerboy]

I’m actually in the cattle business and do quite a bit of leather work. There’s certainly something to be said for excesses in fur and food consumption in this country. We should respect all creatures as gifts, and when harvested use these gifts responsibly, from the food we eat to the clothing we have. Grace before meals means a great deal more when you harvested those tomatoes, or killed and butchered that animal yourself, rather than buying processed food in a store. You realize the labor in keeping your body alive and nourished.

Anyone who has worn fur will tell you synthetics can’t compare for warmth. God knew what he was doing when he made animal fur, it is really warm. When I’m working outside in a blizzard, there is no comparison. To let animals die and let the worms eat them when people need coats or food is wasteful and irresponsible, and I’d say immoral.

I ride horses and love the ones I have but I have no hesitations about taking them to the canner when they’re older. They’ve been good to me but what right do I have to rob society of those gifts? I feel I have a responsibility to salvage that animal for the benefit of society, even when I don’t want to. Certainly those animals need to be killed in a humane manner. This country has banned horse slaughter, so those crippled and old horses are being trucked to Canada or Mexico for slaughter where the animals will be harvested for food, make-up, leather, and countless other goods you use every day. This is extremely cruel and abhorable and is due to the lack of common sense in this nation. As Christians we should be more responsible in our actions. We can kill babies in this country but killing horses or dogs is despicable???

Synthetics come from poly blends, alot of those come from petroleum, oil. If we have a responsibility for all creation we certainly need to be thinking about conservation and renewable energy. Fur is renewable, fur is as green as it gets. Battery operated cars have toxic batteries in them. They’re not green, maybe more green than a gas burner, but if you’re going green ride a horse. Fur can naturally decompose. John the Baptist wore fur.

As for people talking about skinning animals alive, I’ve never heard of such a thing. I’ve skinned quite a few, and they’re alot easier to skin once their dead. I’ve never tried skinning one alive, but I’d think it would be alot more work than it was worth. This is the kind of senseless gossip that leads to senseless legislation in this country. Those are some bad references there. God gave us the use of reason, no animal has it, so it’s up to us to use it. Let’s do our part.

Thanks for the information and your interesting perspective.

 

[severus68]

Seriously folks. the world really is one big menu. Sometimes even humans are eaten by animals. I think if we had a more open mind to the possibilities, we could seriously curtail world hunger. As long as we raise and kill animals humanely, we should be able to use them for food and clothing. I used to work at a slaughter house. the Whole cow was used. even the hooves. About the only thing I have a real problem with is veal. The way veal is raised is inhumane in my view. so there fore, I wont eat it. To each his own though. I would hope in this case at least, they could find another way to raise the baby cattle, to make their existence a lot less miserable. Its really sad. other wise I say, lets look at alternatives to feed the worlds population and stop being squemish. I think horse is an excelent place to start. Peace And yes. I love horses. I also like to eat.

There would be no world hunger if lands used for raising animals for meat are converted to growing grain and other food plants and excess grain etc is not destroyed but sent to the hungry.
Why make the exception for veal? Animals are not always killed “humanely” whether in a slaughterhouse or elsewhere.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

There would be no world hunger if lands used for raising animals for meat are converted to growing grain and other food plants and excess grain etc is not destroyed but sent to the hungry.
Why make the exception for veal? Animals are not always killed “humanely” whether in a slaughterhouse or elsewhere.

What, plants don’t have lives too? :ehh:

 

[benidict]

My dear foreign friend, that pooch is too sosyal to be an askal breed. This thing on the other hand is yet another reason why my government is too corrupt in that it can’t even fund a decent dog pound to keep this mongrels off the streets. Ugh… >_<;; I wouldn’t even want to eat this! I just want it to stop being one excuse for why I don’t go out much in my neighborhood. T_T

EEEWWW! This looks like the kind we have in Iraq. I see your point.

 

[benidict]

There would be no world hunger if lands used for raising animals for meat are converted to growing grain and other food plants and excess grain etc is not destroyed but sent to the hungry.
Why make the exception for veal? Animals are not always killed “humanely” whether in a slaughterhouse or elsewhere.

Yes, but veal is always cruel process from the word go. The Calf is placed in a tiny pen, so it cant even walk around. As far as the idea of growing grain and donating the exess? Im all for it. Where I am at, they have 2 huge rivers called the Tigress and Euphrates. If Iraq, would invest as much into farming as They do oil, They could rival some of the best food producing nations in the world. No disagreement with you. And I also believe that any animal that is going to be consumed, should be raised and killed humanely. We really dont have a disagreement my friend. Peace

 

[benidict]

What, plants don’t have lives too? :ehh:

Oh NO! NOT MEEEEE! OH MAN!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

EEEWWW! This looks like the kind we have in Iraq. I see your point.

Oh I’ve seen worse. It gets even uglier when these things fight (and I’ve witnessed a few nasty angry dogs in all my life here). Stray cats aren’t any better. Sure they’re quiet and don’t leave as big a mess but when you hear them at night, good Lord it sounds like a baby crying on your porch. Now to outsiders that may not be a big deal but your country doesn’t have horror stories about the tiyanak. (A tiyanak is a Philippine folk monster that takes the form of a baby except with an impish face and sharp teeth.)

You have no idea how many times I’ve kept telling myself that it’s just cats just to suppress my chronic fear of horror monsters. >_<;;

Stray cats, being generally smaller, have also found their way into my “attic”. (Technically it’s just the crude space between our ceiling and our roof so you can see how they can get in there). I’ll never forget how I had a hard time sleeping when I started hearing noises above my head. ARGH! Stupid horror movies! Stupid cats!! DX

sighs

Anyways, I don’t really condone the brutality involved in putting them down but please, keep these strays off the streets!! DX

 

[benidict]

Oh I’ve seen worse. It gets even uglier when these things fight (and I’ve witnessed a few nasty angry dogs in all my life here). Stray cats aren’t any better. Sure they’re quiet and don’t leave as big a mess but when you hear them at night, good Lord it sounds like a baby crying on your porch. Now to outsiders that may not be a big deal but your country doesn’t have horror stories about the tiyanak. (A tiyanak is a Philippine folk monster that takes the form of a baby except with an impish face and sharp teeth.)

You have no idea how many times I’ve kept telling myself that it’s just cats just to suppress my chronic fear of horror monsters. >_<;;

Stray cats, being generally smaller, have also found their way into my “attic”. (Technically it’s just the crude space between our ceiling and our roof so you can see how they can get in there). I’ll never forget how I had a hard time sleeping when I started hearing noises above my head. ARGH! Stupid horror movies! Stupid cats!! DX

sighs

Anyways, I don’t really condone the brutality involved in putting them down but please, keep these strays off the streets!! DX

I agree. They are very unhealthy. When we first invaded this country, and occupied, one of the details was culling the dog population. Soldiers would be assigned shot guns to shoot them. We have to do the same with the bird population. they dont have the sanitation we have in the states, so we have to take other measures. A high powered air rifle works great for pidgeons. Also, have you ever seen the Ghost Train in your country. A friend of mine that is a Protestant Missionary was telling us about this, and that he had witnessed it. Spiritual manifestations are very much real in your part of the world, from what I am led to understand. Peace

 

[severus68]

I do not know. I usually do not look at the ingredients for cheese, but my guess is that the type of rennet would not be indicated on the label.

Actually it is. There is vegetarian cheese but vegans would not eat that. Now there is non dairy and thus vegan milk, cheese and even cream.

 

[severus68]

Genesis 3:21: “The LORD God made garments of skin [fur] for Adam and his wife and clothed them.”

'Nuff said, I think

God also said that we were to eat the fruit on the trees except for one tree and for the creatures to eat the grass on the ground. So what happened? All violence and killing because of the sins of humans.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

God also said that we were to eat the fruit on the trees except for one tree and for the creatures to eat the grass on the ground. So what happened? All violence and killing because of the sins of humans.

Actually, this is all that I found in my Bible:

Genesis 2:16-17
The LORD God gave man this order: “You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die.”

 

[severus68]

You were complaining earlier about abortionists. They have jobs and need to eat too.

And what about other jobs that I bet you consider immoral? Porn workers need money to eat. Drug dealers need their money too. As I said earlier, simply because some have made it their livelihood does not necessarily make it moral or immoral.

This is all well and good, but from what I understand, aren’t coats made of genuine fur expensive? I don’t claim to know a lot about this, so if you can correct me, that’s fine. But as I understand it, fur coats are pretty expensive. Fur coats are pretty much the last thing I think of when I think of poor, homeless people. Therefore, claiming that animals should be used for their furs because some humans can’t afford proper clothing is hollow, since if they were too poor to afford synthetic clothing, then they’re definitely too poor to buy furs, and thus it wouldn’t help them very much anyway.

Well said.

White slave traders create jobs and earn their living in that manner to give another example.

Fur is seen as a luxury item. There are more than adequate alternatives.

 

[severus68]

Actually, this is all that I found in my Bible:

" God said, I have given you every seed-bearing plant which is on the face of all this earth, and every tree that bears fruit with seed. It will be your food. To every wild animal, to every bird of the sky, to everything that creeps along the ground, to everything that has the breath of life, I give every green plant for food." Genesis 1, 29-30.

That was my paraphrasing.

BTW on your comments re the dogs and cats, strays are strays because humans throw them out, allow them to breed, throw the kittens and puppies out. Then there are those who refuse to pick up after their pets, allow them to roam in the streets, cause a nuisance, get knocked down. We have been given superior intellect and free will, we have the responsibility and the obligation to treat the other of God’s creatures with mercy and compassion.

 

[benidict]

" God said, I have given you every seed-bearing plant which is on the face of all this earth, and every tree that bears fruit with seed. It will be your food. To every wild animal, to every bird of the sky, to everything that creeps along the ground, to everything that has the breath of life, I give every green plant for food." Genesis 1, 29-30.

That was my paraphrasing.

BTW on your comments re the dogs and cats, strays are strays because humans throw them out, allow them to breed, throw the kittens and puppies out. Then there are those who refuse to pick up after their pets, allow them to roam in the streets, cause a nuisance, get knocked down. We have been given superior intellect and free will, we have the responsibility and the obligation to treat the other of God’s creatures with mercy and compassion.

Hi Severus. I am not sure what country you are from. but you may have a different view on animals, than those that live in foreign countries. It sounds like the philipines is much like Iraq, in that the Dog and Cat population is wild for the most part. they do not really see them as pets. No one throws them out, because they have never been taken in, in the first place. Its a different society, from where you and I come from. I could also point out though, there is a similar problem with wild dogs and cats in southern states such as Georgia, and Mississipi and others. Also wild, formerly domestic pigs are such a nusiance And do so much damage to crops and such, that you dont even need a permit to hunt them in certain areas. Even with all the hunting, there are still too many. The same can be said about the deer population where I am from in Michigan. Peace

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

" God said, I have given you every seed-bearing plant which is on the face of all this earth, and every tree that bears fruit with seed. It will be your food. To every wild animal, to every bird of the sky, to everything that creeps along the ground, to everything that has the breath of life, I give every green plant for food." Genesis 1, 29-30.

That was my paraphrasing.

It doesn’t say you can’t eat them for food. The best you can glean from it, without changing the words, is that it explains the purpose of “seed-bearing” plants and “fruit-bearing” trees (for humans) and the purpose of green grass (for animals). That goes without even saying that it’s done in a style of the creation myth which is common amongst all other cultures. Plenty of animals eat the fruits of trees and not all herbivores eat grass. I don’t have to be a Biology major to tell you that much.

BTW on your comments re the dogs and cats, strays are strays because humans throw them out, allow them to breed, throw the kittens and puppies out. Then there are those who refuse to pick up after their pets, allow them to roam in the streets, cause a nuisance, get knocked down. We have been given superior intellect and free will, we have the responsibility and the obligation to treat the other of God’s creatures with mercy and compassion.

Actually, you couldn’t be any more ignorant about the origin of the askal. The truth is, these strays actually descend from many long generations of mongrels dating all the way back to Spanish times (and perhaps even further beyond granted how one of our pre-colonial tribes, the Igorot, allegedly consider dog meat a delicacy though that is being disputed). They are not abandoned pets. The ones you speak of could have only been their ancestors and for all you know we could be talking about pets that have lived hundreds of years ago.

In fact people actually pick up, clean up, and randomly breed these strays as pets as a cheaper alternative to the high and fancy ones in pet shops. That’s pretty much how I got my dog (who keeps out burglars) and my cat (whose presence ensures my house 100% rat free).

It takes a lot though to pick up a random stray and do just that so don’t think you’ve found a solution. Remember, this is a Third World Country. The population has enough on their plate trying to clothe and feed themselves without worrying about pet welfare. Heck the poorest among us eat things that are no different from the things an askal eats. Unlike the askal however, I actually feel more sorry for them seeing as how they are children of God just like you and me. They deserve better than any animal.

Hence, I’d be content with having these strays locked up in a shelter. I don’t condone the brutality but that’s no excuse to let them roam to dirty our streets. Not to mention, they can even be dangerous for drivers. I nearly ran over a stray puppy once with my bike and boy was its stray momma ticked.

She wasn’t nearly as ticked as I was though. God I wish I had creepy psychic powers. Every time a dumb dog barks at me for dumb reasons makes me wanna give 'em a mental horror image that would send them whimpering back. -_-

 

[severus68]

It doesn’t say you can’t eat them for food. The best you can glean from it, without changing the words, is that it explains the purpose of “seed-bearing” plants and “fruit-bearing” trees (for humans) and the purpose of green grass (for animals). That goes without even saying that it’s done in a style of the creation myth which is common amongst all other cultures. Plenty of animals eat the fruits of trees and not all herbivores eat grass. I don’t have to be a Biology major to tell you that much.

I disagree with your interpretation of that passage. That was the world God made, it was Man’s sin that changed everything. Yes it is an allegory, I was responding to someone else who quoted a passage from the Bible.

I do not pretend to know about the dogs of the Philippines. I know some eat dog meat and I am told that is a speciallity eaten by men when drinking. This was related to me by Filipinos. These are not like the wild dogs of the Kalahari, it does not matter when they were abandoned. I was making a point about how animals are blamed for many things when the wrong doers are actually human beings.

I do appreciate that for many people in this world, it is a matter of living hand to mouth. I also know of people who are poor and still know about charity and compassion. Poverty does not stop them from showing the light of Christ although they may not be Christian,. I have seen this in India and in the Philippines.

Bless you for taking in strays. I agree about the shelters. Letting strays wander the streets is no good to animal and people,

Actually, you couldn’t be any more ignorant about the origin of the askal. The truth is, these strays actually descend from many long generations of mongrels dating all the way back to Spanish times (and perhaps even further beyond granted how one of our pre-colonial tribes, the Igorot, allegedly consider dog meat a delicacy though that is being disputed). They are not abandoned pets. The ones you speak of could have only been there ancestors and for all you know we could be talking about pets that have lived hundreds of years ago.

In fact people actually pick up, clean up, and randomly breed these strays as pets as a cheaper alternative to the high and fancy ones in pet shops. That’s pretty much how I got my dog (who keeps out burglars) and my cat (whose presence ensures my house 100% rat free).

It takes a lot though to pick up a random stray and do just that so don’t think you’ve found a solution. Remember, this is a Third World Country. The population has enough on their plate trying to clothe and feed themselves without worrying about pet welfare. Heck the poorest among us eat things that are no different from the things an askal eats. Unlike the askal however, I actually feel more sorry for them seeing as how they are children of God just like you and me. They deserve better than any animal.

Hence, I’d be content with having these strays locked up in a shelter. I don’t condone the brutality but that’s no excuse to let them roam to dirty our streets.

 

[severus68]

Hi Severus. I am not sure what country you are from. but you may have a different view on animals, than those that live in foreign countries. It sounds like the philipines is much like Iraq, in that the Dog and Cat population is wild for the most part. they do not really see them as pets. No one throws them out, because they have never been taken in, in the first place. Its a different society, from where you and I come from. I could also point out though, there is a similar problem with wild dogs and cats in southern states such as Georgia, and Mississipi and others. Also wild, formerly domestic pigs are such a nusiance And do so much damage to crops and such, that you dont even need a permit to hunt them in certain areas. Even with all the hunting, there are still too many. The same can be said about the deer population where I am from in Michigan. Peace

I do get what you are saying about how animals are viewed in various countries. I also appreciate the problems wild animals can cause. I just wonder about the world God intended this to be.