Is using animals for their fur moral or immoral?

[benidict]

I do get what you are saying about how animals are viewed in various countries. I also appreciate the problems wild animals can cause. I just wonder about the world God intended this to be.

I think its obvious from the Garden of Eden account that things are not what they should be. I think you can have hope however. When Christ returns, all of creation will be made new. Then we will get back to the way things were supposed to be, before sin entered the world.And yes, I think animals will have a big share in the world to come. Could you imagine having a tiger or panther, and being able to cuddle with and pet? that would be awesome!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I disagree with your interpretation of that passage. That was the world God made, it was Man’s sin that changed everything. Yes it is an allegory, I was responding to someone else who quoted a passage from the Bible.

I am curious of how you will explain the mechanics of Original Sin somehow magically making certain animals carnivores, certain other animals fruit eaters, and how certain types of grass end up capable for human consumption (e.g. wheat).

I was making a point about how animals are blamed for many things when the wrong doers are actually human beings.

Not necessarily. We are the dominant species of this planet. God gave us dominion over lesser creatures. It only follows that we can do whatever we like provided our use of them doesn’t inadvertently harm the environment which, in turn, will always come back to haunt man. You can, for instance, advocate for giving endangered tigers their territory because they are necessary predators. People attacked for them should know better.

On the other hand, in the case of our askal, there are just simply too many running loose and making an awful (not to mention stinky) mess of things.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I think its obvious from the Garden of Eden account that things are not what they should be. I think you can have hope however. When Christ returns, all of creation will be made new. Then we will get back to the way things were supposed to be, before sin entered the world.And yes, I think animals will have a big share in the world to come. Could you imagine having a tiger or panther, and being able to cuddle with and pet? that would be awesome!

That’s nice but I certainly would like to keep eating beef.

 

[benidict]

That’s nice but I certainly would like to keep eating beef.

I know. I am very partial to Cheese burgers myself…And Sushi!

 

[severus68]

I think its obvious from the Garden of Eden account that things are not what they should be. I think you can have hope however. When Christ returns, all of creation will be made new. Then we will get back to the way things were supposed to be, before sin entered the world.And yes, I think animals will have a big share in the world to come. Could you imagine having a tiger or panther, and being able to cuddle with and pet? that would be awesome!

I am really happy that others believe that as I do, thank you. Yes would love to be able to hug all those animals - but might skip on the crocs and sharks though.

 

[severus68]

I am curious of how you will explain the mechanics of Original Sin somehow magically making certain animals carnivores, certain other animals fruit eaters, and how certain types of grass end up capable for human consumption (e.g. wheat).

I never said I have all the answers and we are told we will know all when we meet God. I do not know why God allows babies to suffer and animals too, all sinless for instance.

Not necessarily. We are the dominant species of this planet. God gave us dominion over lesser creatures. It only follows that we can do whatever we like provided our use of them doesn’t inadvertently harm the environment which, in turn, will always come back to haunt man. You can, for instance, advocate for giving endangered tigers their territory because they are necessary predators. People attacked for them should know better.

I am sure that there are people in the Philippines who are trying to help even those poor askal. God bless them.

 

[meltzerboy]

Hi Severus. I am not sure what country you are from. but you may have a different view on animals, than those that live in foreign countries. It sounds like the philipines is much like Iraq, in that the Dog and Cat population is wild for the most part. they do not really see them as pets. No one throws them out, because they have never been taken in, in the first place. Its a different society, from where you and I come from. I could also point out though, there is a similar problem with wild dogs and cats in southern states such as Georgia, and Mississipi and others. Also wild, formerly domestic pigs are such a nusiance And do so much damage to crops and such, that you dont even need a permit to hunt them in certain areas. Even with all the hunting, there are still too many. The same can be said about the deer population where I am from in Michigan. Peace

I just recently saw a TV show on wild boar and the damage they do to crops in southern states. Farmers, with their dogs, try to corner and tackle them singlehandedly. It’s a matter of survival for humans. Some of these boar grow to immense proportions, though they’re kind of cute in an ugly way.

 

[Young_Thinker]

I know. I am very partial to Cheese burgers myself…And Sushi!

I wish that I had some Swiss or provolone cheese right now. I just made a couple of sandwiches with fried eggs, Philadephia steak, and sour cream for lunch. Even I heavily season my food (I guess that you could say that I have an Italian palate), these sandwiches are still not same without cheese.

 

[Young_Thinker]

I am really happy that others believe that as I do, thank you. Yes would love to be able to hug all those animals - but might skip on the crocs and sharks though.

So would I. But a problem arises: animals killing and eating one another could not have been caused by the Fall of Man, since these animals were here eat each other before man came into existence (unless you are an adherent of Young Earth Creationism, which I am not).

 

[benidict]

I am really happy that others believe that as I do, thank you. Yes would love to be able to hug all those animals - but might skip on the crocs and sharks though.

I dont know. I going shark diving when I get redeployed back to hawaii. Tiger sharks are awesome. we get a great white once in a while, but, california, cape horn, and australia have a monopoly on this breed.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The beef industry openly admits that there is an average of roughly 100 dead bovines in each patty…reason number 1,000,000 why I don’t eat the stuff…

I know. I am very partial to Cheese burgers myself…And Sushi!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I know. I am very partial to Cheese burgers myself…And Sushi!

Oh yeah, I doubt anyone on this thread has any idea how many people here would rather buy a cheese burger for a beggar than feed a stray. Sure it’s pitiful on how askal are treated but that’s childish sentimentality compared to how pitiful many beggars live like askal. People aren’t animals. End of story. That’s the very basis of human dignity. We are made in God’s image and likeness, not them.

P.S.

I’m more of a rice person when it comes to Japanese food though. (Some curry rice would be nice right now… stomach growls nyuu…mou… TwT) There’s also this Chinese fast food joint and I love eating their braised beef bowl. TwT stomach growls…again

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Severus, I share your feelings toward animals. But I am sad to say, if there is ONE animal rights person or even the most remote sympathy or love for animals in the Philippines, in my many visits there I HAVE NEVER SEEN IT. One reason I don’t like to go to the Philippines is the insensitive and cold view they have toward animals. It’s truly appauling.

You walk down street after street the entire country long and you see dog after dog chained to a wall and I kid you not the chain is not even two feet long. They have a heavy collar around their neck with this thick chain tied to it. It’s so short that, God bless them, the dogs cannot even lay down or sit down many of them. It’s vile torture.

Then they put huge dogs in cages and the blasted cage is only maybe sometimes six or eight inches longer than the dog is! They can’t move at all in the cages.

It’s stiflingly appauling.

They have cock-fights, birds on a stick (they call them “day olds” because they literally are little new-born baby chicks impaled on a stick and scalded over a fire in a sauce), they’ll make “lechon” out of a pig and you can literally see them stab a pig in the chest with a huge knife in front of everyone, and the list goes on and on and on…

I honestly like filipinos in many ways. My wife was born and raised there. But I can hardly stand to go there…

I had to get on my nephews’ cases because they’re so cruel. They kicked a kitten to death and laughed about it and they’re only 8 and 10 years old. Everyone thought it was funny…except me. They weren’t thrilled when I read that kid off and got on his case.

They don’t feed, help, shelter, or support animals usually unless it’s for them as a security dog and even then that poor dog would be better off being shot than be in their hands as a “pet.”

I could tell you a million stories of the cruelty I’ve seen there. If you showed this stuff to these macho hunter tough guys here in the States, even their hearts would be moved to pity I’m most sure…

If there were an animal rights presence in the Phils, I would gladly donate!!

I am sure that there are people in the Philippines who are trying to help even those poor askal. God bless them.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I dont know. I going shark diving when I get redeployed back to hawaii. Tiger sharks are awesome. we get a great white once in a while, but, california, cape horn, and australia have a monopoly on this breed.

shivers To think those things were actually bigger.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Severus, I share your feelings toward animals. But I am sad to say, if there is ONE animal rights person or even the most remote sympathy or love for animals in the Philippines, in my many visits there I HAVE NEVER SEEN IT. One reason I don’t like to go to the Philippines is the insensitive and cold view they have toward animals. It’s truly appauling.

You know if you’re going to criticize my country, you might as well feel more sorry for people like this:



If you ask me, that is what’s really appalling about this place.

You walk down street after street the entire country long and you see dog after dog chained to a wall and I kid you not the chain is not even two feet long. They have a heavy collar around their neck with this thick chain tied to it. It’s so short that, God bless them, the dogs cannot even lay down or sit down many of them. It’s vile torture.

Then they put huge dogs in cages and the blasted cage is only maybe sometimes six or eight inches longer than the dog is! They can’t move at all in the cages.

Would you rather those dogs lunge and bite your leg off? Guard dogs are the main reason why we have dogs. Heck it’s the main function of my dog. We chain them close to the gate too keep burglars out (and believe me, even in my city, burglaries happen a lot). Dogs like ours are extremely territorial, stray and pet alike. I even once saw a kid being bitten and chased by an angry momma stray because he was playing with her puppies.

they’ll make “lechon” out of a pig and you can literally see them stab a pig in the chest with a huge knife in front of everyone, and the list goes on and on and on…

As I’ve probably lived here longer than you have (seeing as I’ve lived here my whole life), I’d probably had more trucks filled with pigs pass me by while riding a jeepney and went to more crude “lavatories” right next to their pens. Believe me, given the torture my nose had gone through all those times, I’ve every reason to have zero sympathy towards pigs. The only time you can ever really clean them outright is when they’re, you know, dead?

Besides, lechon is DELICIOUS!!! (Especially the skin. stomach growlsl)

If there were an animal rights presence in the Phils, I would gladly donate!!

Would you rather have them replace the many human rights one we have right now?

 

[mark_a]

Hey everyone. I recently learned that in China, it is a common practice to kill cats and dogs for their fur. I am thoroughly disgusted by this myself. But anyway, is it moral or immoral?

It’s only moral if the skin is a by-product of using the meat as food.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You’re creating a false dichotomy and I find it quite objectionable, Lost Wanderer. You’re trying to portray me as insensitive to the poor of the Philippines and uncaring toward the children who wander in the streets hungry and yet I pity animals. Nonsense. Pure nonsense and you know it. I can walk and chew gum. I love many things about the Philippines. My wife is an Ilocana from Baguio and I have traveled to this country many times. My children are part filipino and I am proud of my wife’s heritage. I also have ENORMOUS compassion for the poverty and hunger and marginalized folks of this land. So I hope you retract the implied accusation that I’m insensitive to their plight. Do you know anything about the money I’ve given to the poor and to charity and to my wife’s family and the down-trodden there? Do you know about what I’ve done for HUMANS there? The thread is about ANIMALS so that’s what we’re talking about. You create a false “either-or” dichotomy that is paper-thin…

I can find human poverty AND animal cruelty appauling, can’t I? Do I have to choose? Do I have to be ok with chaining an animal to a wall with a 12 inch chain to be against poverty? Must I be ok with your cock fights, brutal ways of eating, and lack of compassion to animals in order to also pity the starvation and poverty of humanity? Can’t I do both?

You know if you’re going to criticize my country, you might as well feel more sorry for people like this:

If you ask me, that is what’s really appalling about this place.

**Nonsense. If you know anything about dogs, they’re not all vicious attack creatures that act like hounds of hell from a vampire flick. Most dogs are awesome. In the States everyone on every street practically has a dog and we aren’t all massacred with rabbies and missing legs So a kid got a dog bite and now all dogs must be chained up and treated with no compassion? Again, nonsense. **
Would you rather those dogs lunge and bite your leg off? Guard dogs are the main reason why we have dogs. Heck it’s the main function of my dog. We chain them close to the gate too keep burglars out (and believe me, even in my city, burglaries happen a lot). Dogs like ours are extremely territorial, stray and pet alike. I even once saw a kid being bitten and chased by an angry momma stray because he was playing with her puppies.

You have lived in the Philippines infinitely longer than me, yes indeed. But I love how you assume I don’t know what agriculture smells like. Do you know where I live? LOL CENTRAL CALIFORNIA!! We pump out more dairy milk and fruits and vegetables than most entire countries!!! We have about 50 dairies around our area! I smell cows all the time. We grow up with that here. Guess what? Could care less…the smell doesn’t bug us. We’re used to it. Animals and humans have smells. I have gotten in jeepnies in Baguio and busses in San Francisco with HUMAN BEINGS who sure smelled questionable! But that doesn’t mean we should inhumanely slaughter them, right?
As I’ve probably lived here longer than you have (seeing as I’ve lived here my whole life), I’d probably had more trucks filled with pigs pass me by while riding a jeepney and went to more crude “lavatories” right next to their pens. Believe me, given the torture my nose had gone through all those times, I’ve every reason to have zero sympathy towards pigs. The only time you can ever really clean them outright is when they’re, you know, dead?

**To each his own. I find it disgusting, unhealthy, and appauling the way they are killed there. And if you look at the cholesterol, blood pressure, diabetes, and lifespan of most filipinos, they could do with less lechon. My wife, who is in the nursing program, is blown away at how her family and most filipinos eat. The diet is so fattening, high in sugar and starch and sodium as well as cholesterol, very little nutritional knowledge there, it’s sad. My wife’s entire family are diabetic. My wife is not. **
Besides, lechon is DELICIOUS!!! (Especially the skin. stomach growlsl)

I am pro life, period. I love humanity and fight passionately AGAINST ABORTION and I believe in human rights. I also believe in animal rights. Again, you create a false dichotomy and “either or” which is illogical to me. Why can’t I care about human and animal rights? I donate to the poor AND animal rights groups. And I make no apologies for loving God’s creatures. From the tone and tenor of your post here, you seem to have a very low opinion of animals or their feelings. You seem to not care about their treatment or dignity whatsoever. It is quite unfortunate.
Would you rather have them replace the many human rights one we have right now?

 

[severus68]

You’re creating a false dichotomy and I find it quite objectionable, Lost Wanderer. You’re trying to portray me as insensitive to the poor of the Philippines and uncaring toward the children who wander in the streets hungry and yet I pity animals. Nonsense. Pure nonsense and you know it. I can walk and chew gum. I love many things about the Philippines. My wife is an Ilocana from Baguio and I have traveled to this country many times. My children are part filipino and I am proud of my wife’s heritage. I also have ENORMOUS compassion for the poverty and hunger and marginalized folks of this land. So I hope you retract the implied accusation that I’m insensitive to their plight. Do you know anything about the money I’ve given to the poor and to charity and to my wife’s family and the down-trodden there? Do you know about what I’ve done for HUMANS there? The thread is about ANIMALS so that’s what we’re talking about. You create a false “either-or” dichotomy that is paper-thin…

I can find human poverty AND animal cruelty appauling, can’t I? Do I have to choose? Do I have to be ok with chaining an animal to a wall with a 12 inch chain to be against poverty? Must I be ok with your cock fights, brutal ways of eating, and lack of compassion to animals in order to also pity the starvation and poverty of humanity? Can’t I do both?

Very well put. Caring for animals and caring for people is not mutually exclusive.

 

[severus68]

Severus, I share your feelings toward animals. But I am sad to say, if there is ONE animal rights person or even the most remote sympathy or love for animals in the Philippines, in my many visits there I HAVE NEVER SEEN IT. One reason I don’t like to go to the Philippines is the insensitive and cold view they have toward animals. It’s truly appauling.

You walk down street after street the entire country long and you see dog after dog chained to a wall and I kid you not the chain is not even two feet long. They have a heavy collar around their neck with this thick chain tied to it. It’s so short that, God bless them, the dogs cannot even lay down or sit down many of them. It’s vile torture.

Then they put huge dogs in cages and the blasted cage is only maybe sometimes six or eight inches longer than the dog is! They can’t move at all in the cages.

It’s stiflingly appauling.

They have cock-fights, birds on a stick (they call them “day olds” because they literally are little new-born baby chicks impaled on a stick and scalded over a fire in a sauce), they’ll make “lechon” out of a pig and you can literally see them stab a pig in the chest with a huge knife in front of everyone, and the list goes on and on and on…

I honestly like filipinos in many ways. My wife was born and raised there. But I can hardly stand to go there…

I had to get on my nephews’ cases because they’re so cruel. They kicked a kitten to death and laughed about it and they’re only 8 and 10 years old. Everyone thought it was funny…except me. They weren’t thrilled when I read that kid off and got on his case.

They don’t feed, help, shelter, or support animals usually unless it’s for them as a security dog and even then that poor dog would be better off being shot than be in their hands as a “pet.”

I could tell you a million stories of the cruelty I’ve seen there. If you showed this stuff to these macho hunter tough guys here in the States, even their hearts would be moved to pity I’m most sure…

If there were an animal rights presence in the Phils, I would gladly donate!!

That is very sad and a horrible situation. I am surprised as there are animal rights groups in India and even in China. I have read their newspapers and know they are very vocal about their rights etc. so why feel nothing for other sentient beings. About your nephews, what are they going to grow up to be if they have no pity for a helpless kitten. I remember my young nephew aiming a kick at my dog and my dog growling to warn him off. My nephew was told off by his parents who told him.

I understand people who do not like animals, like I do not like every person I meet. It is about being an upright, moral person and doing the right thing. My sister for instance has a phobia about fur etc but would never be cruel to an animal.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I can find human poverty AND animal cruelty appauling, can’t I? Do I have to choose? Do I have to be ok with chaining an animal to a wall with a 12 inch chain to be against poverty? Must I be ok with your cock fights, brutal ways of eating, and lack of compassion to animals in order to also pity the starvation and poverty of humanity? Can’t I do both?

Seeing as how cock fights are part of my culture and how many starving people here would slaughter any animal they can afford just so they could eat, then yes there is a dichotomy. If you have to choose between chaining a guard dog to keep out the many drug-addicted burglars or letting these punks break in to nab stuff just so they can maintain their habit, yes there is a dichotomy.

Nonsense. If you know anything about dogs, they’re not all vicious attack creatures that act like hounds of hell from a vampire flick. Most dogs are awesome. In the States everyone on every street practically has a dog and we aren’t all massacred with rabbies and missing legs So a kid got a dog bite and now all dogs must be chained up and treated with no compassion? Again, nonsense.

I don’t need to be a dog expert veterinarian to speak about my own nation’s dogs. Most dogs here bark at any stranger who comes within just a meter of the gate they’re chained to. I’ve been bitten by dogs I’ve tried to simply pet when I was a child. A house dog that doesn’t start barking at strangers is always a pampered pup that has had treatment and training way above the cost of your average Pinoy askal. Most dogs here are far from that. People here can’t afford either the time or the money to train their pets to behave.

You have lived in the Philippines infinitely longer than me, yes indeed. But I love how you assume I don’t know what agriculture smells like. Do you know where I live? LOL CENTRAL CALIFORNIA!! We pump out more dairy milk and fruits and vegetables than most entire countries!!! We have about 50 dairies around our area! I smell cows all the time. We grow up with that here. Guess what? Could care less…the smell doesn’t bug us. We’re used to it. Animals and humans have smells. I have gotten in jeepnies in Baguio and busses in San Francisco with HUMAN BEINGS who sure smelled questionable! But that doesn’t mean we should inhumanely slaughter them, right?

Trust me, your American farms are sweet-smelling orchards compared to the pigsty that characterizes many Filipino “farms”. Care to compare the technology used by yours and mine? How about the income? At the very least, you guys wear decent head gear and gloves in your slaughterhouses. Most guys who work in our slaughterhouses are all cheap labor coolies who wear nothing but shorts. Some of them even use child labor.

You know there’s a reason why we’re called a Third World country. Most of our population does not enjoy the decent standard of living of your average American.

Besides, unlike human beings, pigs lack the capacity or the desire to smell nice.

To each his own. I find it disgusting, unhealthy, and appauling the way they are killed there. And if you look at the cholesterol, blood pressure, diabetes, and lifespan of most filipinos, they could do with less lechon. My wife, who is in the nursing program, is blown away at how her family and most filipinos eat. The diet is so fattening, high in sugar and starch and sodium as well as cholesterol, very little nutritional knowledge there, it’s sad. My wife’s entire family are diabetic. My wife is not.

Lechon is a festival dish. We only eat it on special occasions. That’s as little as you can get. You’d be better off blaming smoking and drinking. You’d see a lot of that being done every day, rich and poor alike.