Is WoW a sin?

[Highwayhound]

I get your point here but I’d just like to say that the games you’ve played are a little less sophisticated. Ever played RPGs? (e.g. Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, the Tales of series, Pokemon even) Those are games that people can get really into. Not only do they have good graphics and gameplay, a good deal of them have stories that you might find very interesting.

Yes, several games over several decades. I was pointing out that I have seen and experienced the whole gamut of computer games. You will probably never play a text only game and think it’s cool. I did. Extensive is my background with playing games on computers. Have you ever waited for the tape player to load your game?

Yes I know the kind of things you want people to do but this is exactly what I’ve been saying. I admit right now, I am not an easy person to talk to offline which is exactly why I’m not sure I’d want to do something like what you suggested. It’s just something I don’t feel I’m cut out for and I’m sure there are a lot of people who feel the same way. We each have our own calling to something.

You or anyone else do not need to copy me, but we do need to follow the path of Jesus, each in our own way. I have never played World of Warcraft. I have watched for a few minutes as other people have played WoW. It has neat graphics and seems like a mega waste of time. What’s the point? If you get your butt beat you just “re-spawn”. So where is the risk? Where is the challenge?

You might not remember the arcade game of Super Mario Bros. I once played through all 4 levels of all 8 worlds (took no short cut warps). All 32 sections were played on one Mario. That was a challenge.

Besides, as we have also mentioned, a lot of us lead extremely busy lives. Furthermore, “busy” and “stress” tend to go very much hand-in-hand in the daily bustle of 21st century civilization.

I understand this. 21st century though has nothing to do with it.

Visiting a shut-in patient is saintly and charitable for sure, but I don’t know how that’s going to make me any less exhausted from work/school (and as you know, stress is very detrimental to your sanity).

It let’s you follow Jesus and his teachings which does relieve stress. It let’s one see how easy life is by comparison to someone who has to struggle to put a piece of a puzzle in place. Let alone being able to handle the dexterity needed to play some modern computer games.

That is unless that patient turns out to be a really cute girl who is everything I could ask for in a future spouse but coincidentally has a rare disease that leaves her bedridden (then again, that’s the kinda stuff that only happens in romance anime or manga, best stop fantasizing >_<;; ).

What is fun is to tell people, “I have to go. I have a date.” Leave it at that and go visit Della at the nursing home.

People like you have a gift you know that? You’d be surprised how exceptional it is to find someone with a lot of guts to just jump up and do nice things like that.

You are kind to type such words. Sinners such as me spend a lot of time in the confessional. It does help shine up a muddy soul. I hope people see my examples as just that examples and not as any bragging.

I’m not book specific to be honest but there are a good many times when I listened to a reading at Mass and found a lot things in it that related to my current life. I tend to go straight to Revelations though when I’m looking for something more aesthetic for my writing projects (come to think of it, the Four Horsemen could make interesting Kamen Riders… hmm… )

Kamen Riders is what?

Wow, good for you. What did your parents say though?
Seriously however, the only way I could wind up doing anything even close to what you did is for God to whisk me away to some magical fantasy land along with a few other unsuspecting people my age and we have to save said fantasy land from inevitable destruction. That would definitely make me consider all the things I do now with lesser significance (oh great, I’m day dreaming about my own anime/manga adventure again… I’ve got to stop doing that -_-;; ).

Parents? Mom is okay with what I do for adventure.

Look for simple ways to add virtues into your life. If small steps are taken a gradual change will occur. I mean would you take a low level party of adventures out on day 1 and attempt to destroy a band of ice trolls? Of course not, you would spend your time whacking a few goblins and rats and various low level foes. As your experience builds you test the waters by exploring more of the map. Building up a life of virtue is a lot like gaining experience points to level up a character.

God bless

 

[Exalt]

Thank you–what you might lack as a judge of character, you make up for in kindness!

As I’ve said before, though, Catholics could possibly learn something from WoW. Consider the effect on vocations if priests were actually able to do stuff like Shadowform, Inner Fire, Mind Blast, etc. There’s a fellow you’d darned well BETTER confess to.

You know, I have another mortal sin to add to this discussion. In another guild on my server, they had Immortal up on the final boss (Kel’Thuzad) in Naxx-25. (For those that don’t know, you basically have to complete the longest, hardest dungeon in the game without anyone in the 25-person group dying in order to gain access to a special title and flying dragon. It’s extremely rare and very special.) Unfortunately, there was a Paladin in the raid who was upset with the guild and deliberately killed himself with a Divine Intervention on the Tank while Kel’Thuzad was at 2%.

If that’s not a moral sin, I don’t know what is.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Yes, several games over several decades. I was pointing out that I have seen and experienced the whole gamut of computer games. You will probably never play a text only game and think it’s cool. I did. Extensive is my background with playing games on computers. Have you ever waited for the tape player to load your game?

Interesting. What was the newest game you have ever played so far?

You or anyone else do not need to copy me, but we do need to follow the path of Jesus, each in our own way. I have never played World of Warcraft. I have watched for a few minutes as other people have played WoW. It has neat graphics and seems like a mega waste of time. What’s the point? If you get your butt beat you just “re-spawn”. So where is the risk? Where is the challenge?

WoW is hardly a spectator game. I’ve been fortunate enough to sample it when I borrowed a friend’s account one time and believe me, it takes a lot of work. Also, there a lot of online games out there that deal out penalties when someone pwns your rear (e.g. deduction in exp points) Not only that, it’s seriously damaging to one’s pride. These games are sports on their own and as such, they demand skill. Getting beaten (or worse, getting beaten easily) is obviously a sign that you lack such skill and can be even be labeled a noob. There’s the challenge. The same goes for other games. Players want to be good at them. Perhaps you are pretty good at certain things other than video games that you don’t find the significance at accomplishing these challenges. For gamers however, having to possess a high level of knowledge and ability at the same time getting admired for it, when you know nothing else, that’s a lot of incentive than you think. Especially considering a fair number of gamers have low self- esteem.

You might not remember the arcade game of Super Mario Bros. I once played through all 4 levels of all 8 worlds (took no short cut warps). All 32 sections were played on one Mario. That was a challenge.

One thing I’ve learned about older games (and I know cuz I’ve played them too) on occassion), is that their simplicity is also the reason behind their difficulty.

Still, that doesn’t make newer games any less of a challenge. Try beating the Golden Knight in Tales of the World: Radiant Mythology on your first try (your ever FIRST try), with an unprepared party. Man, did I burn through all my items with that. x_x

I understand this. 21st century though has nothing to do with it.

Really? I though the knights of medieval times worried more about honor and bravery and not about figures on a piece of paper that just so happened to dictate how apparently useful you may be to your family and to society. I was also under the impression that the shepherds in the Bible were free from the worries of test scores, intense studying, memorizing complex math, high expectations, and other things that, while petty, seem to determine your entire future in these times.

It let’s you follow Jesus and his teachings which does relieve stress. It let’s one see how easy life is by comparison to someone who has to struggle to put a piece of a puzzle in place. Let alone being able to handle the dexterity needed to play some modern computer games.

What is fun is to tell people, “I have to go. I have a date.” Leave it at that and go visit Della at the nursing home.

My point is, it doesn’t work that way for everyone. Trust me, when I see a beggar on the street every time I walk out of my university, I’m only stressed out more because I know that’s the fate that awaits me should I cease pushing myself. I’ve already been exposed to those less fortunate, believe me, it just makes me feel more worn out knowing that I could end up like them if I keep slacking off.

You are kind to type such words. Sinners such as me spend a lot of time in the confessional. It does help shine up a muddy soul. I hope people see my examples as just that examples and not as any bragging.

No worries. You’re not bragging at all. At least you have the capability, the time, the heart, and God’s favor to be able to do what you do. Me? I can barely survive my studies and I go on the edge of my sanity just thinking about my grades (which, conveniently enough, are going to be announced less than a week from now T_T ).

Kamen Riders is what?

They are just a few of my aesthetic sources of inspiration. Watch this if you wanna see them in action. I reckon the four horsement could be an interesting concept to use if I ever have the need to make characters with a Kamen Rider theme.

Parents? Mom is okay with what I do for adventure.

Look for simple ways to add virtues into your life. If small steps are taken a gradual change will occur. I mean would you take a low level party of adventures out on day 1 and attempt to destroy a band of ice trolls? Of course not, you would spend your time whacking a few goblins and rats and various low level foes. As your experience builds you test the waters by exploring more of the map. Building up a life of virtue is a lot like gaining experience points to level up a character.

God bless

I actually do that. I can’t exactly explain how, but I do. However, taking things at a gradual pace gets seriously boring and repetitive if to goes on too long which is why I’m not a hardcore online gamer. One thing I like about many of the offline RPGs I play is that you level up faster so that you could spend more time exploring places and engaging in more challenging fights. You don’t have to worry so much about spending too long raising your level in order to take on a meaner boss or explore a more dangerous dungeon.

For people like me however, real life isn’t like that. We have to spend every day, doing the same thing, just so we could be secure in order to even start thinking of doing the things similar to what you did on that summer. Unfortunately, unlike you, a good deal of people end up trapped in that routine for a majority of their lives.

 

[AnonymousPrayer]

Which part specifically? The part about how video games made him cranky or the part about video games being potential causes of demonic possession? Either way, may I remind you that Jack Chick thinks the same way as well.

Just thought I’d point that out.

I was following up on previous posts that had suggested the devil working through video games to drive people away from the church.

Putting religion aside I feel that video games are a waste of people’s time and that they take away from more productive things one could be doing instead. Now a man such as yourself might try to find the good in these games just to give yourself an excuse to continue wasting time at your computer, but I am certain that leveling your character up by killing things and people is not going to hep the world or yourself in anyway.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

You know, I have another mortal sin to add to this discussion. In another guild on my server, they had Immortal up on the final boss (Kel’Thuzad) in Naxx-25. (For those that don’t know, you basically have to complete the longest, hardest dungeon in the game without anyone in the 25-person group dying in order to gain access to a special title and flying dragon. It’s extremely rare and very special.) Unfortunately, there was a Paladin in the raid who was upset with the guild and deliberately killed himself with a Divine Intervention on the Tank while Kel’Thuzad was at 2%.

If that’s not a moral sin, I don’t know what is.

GAH! If that happened to me, I’d probably find myself wrestling with thoughts of atheism. So maybe WoW is a barrier to faith (or at least your server might be)!

May his Black War Mammoth get ninjaed.

 

[bobzills]

Which part specifically? The part about how video games made him cranky or the part about video games being potential causes of demonic possession? Either way, may I remind you that Jack Chick thinks the same way as well.

Just thought I’d point that out.

This part makes a lot of sense, in my personal opinion:

I can offer my own experience on the subject.
Before I joined the USMC, I was a video game finatic, I played quite often and it was most definetely unhealthy. After a while of playing a video game I would get ill-tempered and lash out even. It seemed that the games themselves were taking control of me and making me angry. I’m not sure why, but my mother also told me that she often saw those times when i would get unreasonably angry. After i got over the addiction i noticed a change in my behavior. I have more time for other things and I am at a greater peace than before. .

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

Honestly, though, is it more likely that magical demon-creatures possessed the inanimate toys, whose only function was to provide enjoyment for you and your friends? Or is it more likely that your mother’s influence - who obviously condemned your Warhammer hobby - combined with your imagination caused you apprehension about your hobby and led you to genuinely smell and feel things that weren’t actually there?

Peter Kreeft was once asked if it was possible for demons to possess animals, eg. cats. His reply was that demons are more likely to possess people, since they do so in a bid to ruin a person’s chances at getting to heaven. I think the same applies to inanimate objects like little tabletop RPG figurines.

That said, my understanding is that a lot of the “roleplaying games are evil/demonic” came from one isolated case back in the late 1970s involving James Dallas Egbert, a college student who became obsessed with Dungeons and Dragons. As it turns out, this young man had schizophrenia, so his claims that D&D involved demonic forces were just the ramblings of a confused, mentally ill person who needed treatment to help him get a grip on reality.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I was following up on previous posts that had suggested the devil working through video games to drive people away from the church.

Putting religion aside I feel that video games are a waste of people’s time and that they take away from more productive things one could be doing instead. Now a man such as yourself might try to find the good in these games just to give yourself an excuse to continue wasting time at your computer, but I am certain that leveling your character up by killing things and people is not going to hep the world or yourself in anyway.

Right, so instead of having fun and finding ways to vent my stress, I should keep on working my butt off round the clock for the benefit of a world who couldn’t care less about me. Thanks for justifying workaholism (which in case you didn’t know, is a major contributor to suicide).

And for the record, a fair number of video games (particularly RPGS) are works of art in themselves. Let’s see you come up with masterpieces like Final Fantasy VII or Tales of Symphonia. If you think video games are a waste of time, why don’t you try first seeing all the creative fan work and ideas they’ve inspired in their fans. It’s only logical to assume that a person who makes a video game is someone who likes video games himself/herself.

 

[cynic]

Okay along with avoiding video games, I think we should also make sure never to read for recreation, watch a movie, or have any non-essential conversation with friends or family.

 

[bobzills]

Right, so instead of having fun and finding ways to vent my stress, I should keep on working my butt off round the clock for the benefit of a world who couldn’t care less about me…

Actually, Our Lord and His Bleesed Mother care about you.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Actually, Our Lord and His Bleesed Mother care about you.

I was directing that against AnonymousPrayer’s notion that those who play video games have nothing to contribute to society. I find similar opinions among other people who claim to be “grown up” and deem video games (along with other similar hobbies) as “childish” due to the fact that it doesn’t involve unentertaining activity that people only do for the sake of money. Kindly read the next line if you want to know what I really meant.

Thanks for justifying workaholism (which in case you didn’t know, is a major contributor to suicide).

If some people want to dream of a world where everyone is stuck doing a monotonous 9 to 5 job for the rest of their lives, then that’s their right but I really don’t like it if it’s being imposed on others.

 

[cynic]

I was directing that against AnonymousPrayer’s notion that those who play video games have nothing to contribute to society. I find similar opinions among other people who claim to be “grown up” and deem video games (along with other similar hobbies) as “childish” due to the fact that it doesn’t involve unentertaining activity that people only do for the sake of money. Kindly read the next line if you want to know what I really meant.

If some people want to dream of a world where everyone is stuck doing a monotonous 9 to 5 job for the rest of their lives, then that’s their right but I really don’t like it if it’s being imposed on others.

9-5 is a thing of the past for many people.

Ah but that 1 hour of free time you get before going to bed, that should be used to do something productive instead .

 

[Highwayhound]

Interesting. What was the newest game you have ever played so far?

Icewind Dale II is the last game I have completed of the rpg type. I have recently enjoyed ZUMA.

WoW is hardly a spectator game. I’ve been fortunate enough to sample it when I borrowed a friend’s account one time and believe me, it takes a lot of work. Also, there a lot of online games out there that deal out penalties when someone pwns your rear (e.g. deduction in exp points) Not only that, it’s seriously damaging to one’s pride. These games are sports on their own and as such, they demand skill. Getting beaten (or worse, getting beaten easily) is obviously a sign that you lack such skill and can be even be labeled a noob. There’s the challenge. The same goes for other games. Players want to be good at them. Perhaps you are pretty good at certain things other than video games that you don’t find the significance at accomplishing these challenges. For gamers however, having to possess a high level of knowledge and ability at the same time getting admired for it, when you know nothing else, that’s a lot of incentive than you think. Especially considering a fair number of gamers have low self- esteem.

Interesting last point - What if a group got together did something positive for someone else and then celebrated by having a game playing session? That would help the self esteem of the gamers. It would not have to be complicated, but something simple.

My point is, it doesn’t work that way for everyone. Trust me, when I see a beggar on the street every time I walk out of my university, I’m only stressed out more because I know that’s the fate that awaits me should I cease pushing myself. I’ve already been exposed to those less fortunate, believe me, it just makes me feel more worn out knowing that I could end up like them if I keep slacking off.

Do you ever do anything for the beggar? Even if it is a simple smile or a “Hello”.

For people like me however, real life isn’t like that. We have to spend every day, doing the same thing, just so we could be secure in order to even start thinking of doing the things similar to what you did on that summer. Unfortunately, unlike you, a good deal of people end up trapped in that routine for a majority of their lives.

I do understand. So, at least you see this. Do you have any plans to find a way out of the cycle?

God bless

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Icewind Dale II is the last game I have completed of the rpg type. I have recently enjoyed ZUMA.

I see. Have you ever played RPGs from Japanese companies like Nintendo, Namco-Bandai, Square-Enix? Its just that the games these companies make are the ones with large fandoms.

Interesting last point - What if a group got together did something positive for someone else and then celebrated by having a game playing session? That would help the self esteem of the gamers. It would not have to be complicated, but something simple.

Yes but the point is, there are some people who just happen to be pretty good at gaming and you can’t really judge them if they indulge in it when it gives them that little prestige that they don’t usually get when doing other activities. Either way, you can’t really take gaming out of the picture when its the best thing for them to relax with and be awesome at.

Do you ever do anything for the beggar? Even if it is a simple smile or a “Hello”.

I actually made a thread long ago on the subject of giving stuff to beggars. Its actually not an easy issue as it looks. As for just a simple greeting, I’m sorry. I attend a pretty top class university (despite being a not so top class student :banghead and talking to them is just adding insult to injury in my opinion. I mean why else would they be begging right outside the entrances? They know we are middle-class students (mixed with the occasional sosy a.k.a. elite). I can’t exactly say its easy to give a cheery greeting to someone who begs with such a sad, miserable voice. Furthermore, this is not even the point. I know that perhaps to you, you feel stress relieved (or at least don’t feel any more stress) when doing such acts of charity but I just can’t say the same thing for me. Seeing beggars sitting there, uneducated, with no job, and an impoverished future, sends a message to me that if I cease shaping myself up or stop working myself, I’ll end up just like them.

I do understand. So, at least you see this. Do you have any plans to find a way out of the cycle?

God bless

Not until I finish college, that’s for sure. Then again, I’m not even doing well, which makes it all the worse. Between just struggling to pass my subjects, overnight shifts at work, and my family’s shaky financial situation, I can only thank my games for keeping me from snapping from all this pressure.

 

[losh14]

So as a 30-year-old with a good understanding of the difference between fact and fiction, good and evil, I play Magic: The Gathering (usually solitaire) because I like the strategy and, as an applied mathematician, I like that the underlying mechanism of the game is based on combinatorics.

But I wouldn’t want my daughter playing this game when she gets old enough to play but not old enough to grok the difference between the amoral competition of MTG and the morality she should follow.

So what would be needed to have a strategy game based on set theory and combinatorics that is considered harmless for children to play?

• Remove the storyline?
• Change the theme to something either abstract (think Pente) or non-violent yet competitive?
• Nix the artwork?

Thoughts welcome.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

So as a 30-year-old with a good understanding of the difference between fact and fiction, good and evil, I play Magic: The Gathering (usually solitaire) because I like the strategy and, as an applied mathematician, I like that the underlying mechanism of the game is based on combinatorics.

But I wouldn’t want my daughter playing this game when she gets old enough to play but not old enough to grok the difference between the amoral competition of MTG and the morality she should follow.

So what would be needed to have a strategy game based on set theory and combinatorics that is considered harmless for children to play?

• Remove the storyline?
• Change the theme to something either abstract (think Pente) or non-violent yet competitive?
• Nix the artwork?

Thoughts welcome.

Okay I’m seriously going to be hotly shot down for this but…

… you could always try Pokemon. hides

P.S.

How old is your daughter by the way? When I was young, I wasn’t allowed to play T-rated games until I turned twelve. Everything was fine after that.

 

[losh14]

… you could always try Pokemon. hides

If Magic’s evil, Pokemon’s annoying and evil. Seriously, if Magic’s most demonic creatures began uttering in chippy little voices their own names “Liege of the Pit! Liege of the Pit!”… you’d have a bunch of empty game stores.

Jenna is three weeks old. My perspective radically changed when I realized I’m responsible for this precious and incredible little person. For one, I find myself thanking God every time I look at her or hold her. For another, I find myself praying for strength, patience and good judgment. And I re-examined all my habits. Where I used to spend sleepless nights playing Mount & Blade, I find I’m either cuddling Jenna and singing her to sleep (since she’s usually my cause of insomnia lately) or I’m reading something impactful, either Scripture or books on environmental econ. I want to show her all the beautiful things I enjoy in the world and yet sanitize for her at the same time. It’s an interesting place to be right now.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

If Magic’s evil, Pokemon’s annoying and evil. Seriously, if Magic’s most demonic creatures began uttering in chippy little voices their own names “Liege of the Pit! Liege of the Pit!”… you’d have a bunch of empty game stores.

Jenna is three weeks old. My perspective radically changed when I realized I’m responsible for this precious and incredible little person. For one, I find myself thanking God every time I look at her or hold her. For another, I find myself praying for strength, patience and good judgment. And I re-examined all my habits. Where I used to spend sleepless nights playing Mount & Blade, I find I’m either cuddling Jenna and singing her to sleep (since she’s usually my cause of insomnia lately) or I’m reading something impactful, either Scripture or books on environmental econ. I want to show her all the beautiful things I enjoy in the world and yet sanitize for her at the same time. It’s an interesting place to be right now.

Wait, so basically she’s still a baby?

I don’t think you could get any child at that age to play any game that require strategic thinking. My baby brother only started playing games like Pokemon and Bakugan when he was nine.

I don’t see what makes Pokemon as demonic as Magic though. One of the biggest gripes my fellow otaku (anime junkie) have against the franchise is because the characters are too cute and kiddie. I even have a net buddy who claims to be a fundamentalist (likes to read the Bible, writes about God etc) but she’s obsessed with it.

 

[celticsfan1983]

Let’s turn the tables on all these posters who hate the idea of doing anyting non-spiritual in their life and say that games like WOW do nothing to benefit the Kingdom of God.

Playing these games, you get to know other people. Talk, converse, etc. What if, through your interactions, you provide a positive witness for God and bring that other person closer to Him?

Would it really be that big of a time-waster, if your playing benefits someone spiritually?

I love video games. I’m about 1/3 of the way through Final Fantasy IX (yes, I’m 9 years late playing that one), and would love to start playing WOW in the fall when I have a little more cash on hand. Point is, maybe after a dozen visits to the used video game shops, I can get to know some of the people who work there, and have casual conversations that could lead to spiritual things. And if that’s the case, maybe, just maybe, this love for RPG games will have a greater purpose and benefit.

Oh, and tonight, when I go to sleep in my “secular” bed. I know that’s not going to build up the kingdom of God. It’s a secular activity that only benefits me. Should I forgo sleep then?

 

[losh14]

Wait, so basically she’s still a baby?

I don’t think you could get any child at that age to play any game that require strategic thinking. My baby brother only started playing games like Pokemon and Bakugan when he was nine.

It’s not for her for now - I mean, she’s still more interested in the TV because it’s a big black thing when it’s off than when it’s got bright colors when it’s on (not that we sit her in front of it or anything).

It’s more that the habits I have today are the habits I’ll keep in the future, and I know I’ll need to justify everything I do, especially if I don’t want her to do it - ie, why does daddy want her to eat meat when mommy (a vegetarian) doesn’t. Same with Magic and other games - how can I justify to her that I’m spending time with things that aren’t uplifting to a young mind when I do it myself.

Anyway, I had some interesting ideas on such a game, and I’m going to try to flesh them out a bit over the next few weeks as I get free time. Maybe I’ll even put some PDFs together and upload them for all interested to try printing out, laminating and playing.