Is WoW a sin?

[bobzills]

What is so evil about a lighthearted desire to win a game (or at least be good at it)?

Generally, the desire to win a game is not wrong. I was referring to deliberately filling your mind with evil or Satanic thoughts which I believe is wrong. The question that I have, is what good does it do for a Christian to fill his mind with evil and Satanic thoughts? Where is it leading?

 

[losh14]

Generally, the desire to win a game is not wrong. I was referring to deliberately filling your mind with evil or Satanic thoughts which I believe is wrong. The question that I have, is what good does it do for a Christian to fill his mind with evil and Satanic thoughts? Where is it leading?

You have a point with the violence. While actual violence is rarely acceptable, I think there can be acceptable levels of simulated violence, especially if they are for a purpose. I also think that the evil from simulated violence stems directly from the degree to which imitating the acts would be evil in themselves.

There’s a profound difference between glorification (ie, “Manhunt”, which is nothing short of perverse) and re-enactment (ie, “Call of Duty” series, which attempts to recreate WWII). There’s also different degrees of involvement. WoW and other first-person games are intensely personal, while strategic games with a commander’s perspective (“Total War” and “Command & Conquer” series, etc) are less about glorification and more about teaching basic strategy (and often a history lesson). There are also games where the violence is so framed in a fantasy setting that I’m not sure a psychological harm can be found - in “Freelancer”, “Eve Online”, and others, you’re in a spaceship. The violence is between two machines using futuristic weapons. If a child acted out the Call of Duty series, it’d be something like cops & robbers or cowboys & indians. If a child acted out Manhunt… it’d be time for therapy.

To your other point, satanic or evil thoughts. I’d ask if the mental connection is to satanic matters, or to fantasy matters?

Games like DOOM and Painkiller take place very much in Hell with very deliberate allusions to commonly-held views of the place. Fortunately, you’re on the good guy’s side in these. Games like WoW and the Sacred series strike me as more like Tolkien, but if someone considered themselves demonic it would be worrying, or otherwise expressed an unhealthy immersion into the game world.

Is violence always evil, regardless of the images used? That’s a hard question to answer. I cannot defend playing “Mount & Blade” from a moral perspective - the characters are objectively morally neutral but subjectively “for” or “against” one another. You fight because you’re enemies. That’s not a clear moral message, except to say that life was at one time nasty, brutish and short.

If the setting is a just war (ie, WWII), that’s a different story, at least for me. I honestly think of my grandfather, a WWII veteran, when I play Call of Duty, and I think of the sacrifices of his generation. But I don’t think everyone plays it that way - if you’re 10 and think that shooting people is cool, that’s totally the wrong message. Likewise, if you watch “Passion of the Christ” because you like violence, that’s totally the wrong message. For me, it’s a powerful meditation on our Lord’s suffering, something I take with a sense of the sacred.

So it depends on the individual, but I really support restrictions on what games are allowed to be sold to kids. Some of these games deserve an X-rating for violence, IMHO. To me, Manhunt is no different from the X-rated version of “Natural Born Killers”. I know parents don’t always take the time to read up on what they buy their kids, so the rating sticker should say “You will act out, in graphic detail, the decapitation of a human being, the ritualistic mutilation of a corpse, and a crucifixion using a nailgun” if that’s what’s in the game.

 

[bobzills]

I know parents don’t always take the time to read up on what they buy their kids, so the rating sticker should say “You will act out, in graphic detail, the decapitation of a human being, the ritualistic mutilation of a corpse, and a crucifixion using a nailgun” if that’s what’s in the game.

Well, I don’t see what good it does to put these violent thoughts and images in the minds of young people? As creatures of God, are we not supposed to make good use of our time on earth?

 

[losh14]

Well, I don’t see what good it does to put these violent thoughts and images in the minds of young people? As creatures of God, are we not supposed to make good use of our time on earth?

I don’t either, but I think it’s a matter of degree. Parents shouldn’t buy such violent games for their kids, and I’d hope people wouldn’t play them, but our laws allow these games to be created, and I support a warning of what precisely they entail to help parents (and people of good conscience) to know what they’re getting into. I see no qualms in allowing a young person to play Freelancer for a limited period of time as a reward for good grades or finishing all their household chores early. Note that I am not advocating a glorification of violence, but I do not wish to mislead people with a sanitized view of reality. The horror of war should be known, feared and despised - when they are old enough, my children will watch “Saving Private Ryan” and “Band of Brothers” to know what their great-grandfather and great-great uncles went through and to learn to despise war. They will not have my consent to watch “Natural Born Killers”.

Of course we’re supposed to make good use of our time, but some leisure can be allowed - even if we are called to account for every moment, we are still supposed to rest. Last week my confessor reminded me that if I am attentive to my family, fulfilling my work duties, and living the calling of my Christian life, there’s no sin in playing an hour of Halo while my wife is talking with her friend in Wisconsin. That’s rest, as is watching a movie or a TV show or reading a book. Note that I am not advocating sloth or addiction - there’s a thick line between an hour of Halo and three hours a night, five nights a week. True, if I could take all of those hours in a month and assemble them on a Saturday afternoon I could do some work of service, but this is not how the hours come to me.

 

[bobzills]

I don’t either, but I think it’s a matter of degree. Parents shouldn’t buy such violent games for their kids, and I’d hope people wouldn’t play them, but our laws allow these games to be created, and I support a warning of what precisely they entail to help parents (and people of good conscience) to know what they’re getting into. I see no qualms in allowing a young person to play Freelancer for a limited period of time as a reward for good grades or finishing all their household chores early. Note that I am not advocating a glorification of violence, but I do not wish to mislead people with a sanitized view of reality. The horror of war should be known, feared and despised - when they are old enough, my children will watch “Saving Private Ryan” and “Band of Brothers” to know what their great-grandfather and great-great uncles went through and to learn to despise war. They will not have my consent to watch “Natural Born Killers”.

Of course we’re supposed to make good use of our time, but some leisure can be allowed - even if we are called to account for every moment, we are still supposed to rest. Last week my confessor reminded me that if I am attentive to my family, fulfilling my work duties, and living the calling of my Christian life, there’s no sin in playing an hour of Halo while my wife is talking with her friend in Wisconsin. That’s rest, as is watching a movie or a TV show or reading a book. Note that I am not advocating sloth or addiction - there’s a thick line between an hour of Halo and three hours a night, five nights a week. True, if I could take all of those hours in a month and assemble them on a Saturday afternoon I could do some work of service, but this is not how the hours come to me.

With reference to Halo or Crisis, do you think that the violence in those games is acceptable for young people? And you would limit it to one hour per day seven days a week? Or two days per week?

 

[losh14]

With reference to Halo or Crisis, do you think that the violence in those games is acceptable for young people? And you would limit it to one hour per day seven days a week? Or two days per week?

Would it help clarify if I said that I think a $50 price indicates it’s not a child’s toy? Video games aren’t for kids anymore. Atari and Coleco and to a lesser extent Nintendo were meant for kids - playing Galaga for two hours brings boredom and an over-heated machine. The primary audience of an XBox or PS3 are people like me - 30-something college graduates with disposible income, people who grew up accepting video games and who would demand more. I honestly think it is ludicrous for a parent to pay $400 for a console for their kid, and it is something I will not do for my children. If I buy it for myself, it is because I consider it for adult leisure. And I haven’t - I only play PC games, and even then it is on a limited basis. I gave it up for Lent and during one night when I had insomnia I played for a few hours to try to burn out some nervous energy (it worked) - that’s why I confessed it.

For anybody, I think video gaming in general should be a reward, not a habit, just as TV and other forms of media entertainment should be a reward, not a habit. No one should default to being a couch potato or computer desk jockey.

What do you mean by a “young person” - thirtysomethings like me, or fifteen-year-olds like my cousins, or five-year-olds like my oldest cousins’ kids? I think it’s more important to gauge the maturity level, rather than age itself. There are people who are too young to play any kind of video game, and just because one is at a certain age doesn’t mean they should play it, either. For someone who is mature enough to know fantasy from reality and to separate the merely unpleasant from the truly obscene, I think it should be left up to their conscience. I don’t play games that offend me.

If it were up to me, I would keep mediated reality away from kids under the age of 10 or 12 for the most part so that it doesn’t interfere with their cognitive growth. I think a teen who is old enough to learn about European history is old enough to play out the Battle of Waterloo in a simulation. Halo, Crysis and GTA carry Mature ratings - to me, this means 21 as a minimum (albeit arbitrary) age. By this time, the young adult has congitively formed his or her ideas about violence and hopefully knows the distinction between belief and the willing suspension thereof, and has learned to balance their leasure time with their real lives.

It is asking for trouble to give a 12-year-old an XBox 360 and a copy of Fallout 3 and say “Here, play this all summer”. The 12-year-old doesn’t know how to manage his or her time, nor his or her attention, nor how to separate the very engrossing and violent narrative in the game from the world around them.

For my cousin, a 28-year-old CPA, I think his PS3 isn’t inappropriate. When his wife is out of town on business (usually two or three nights a week - she’s in sales), he calls me up for a beer or to play Settlers of Catan. When I don’t come over, he plays the PS3. I leave it up to him to judge what is an appropriate usage, but his wife has never complained about it and he’s not had any visible deleterious effects.

For me, I play an hour or two a week when my wife is otherwise occupied and my life is in balance. You will not catch me playing if there are chores to be done or if my wife is unoccupied, or if I haven’t achieved my other personal goals.

 

[Contarini]

Well said.

When is the last time you heard a homily on demons attaching themselves to you on a Sunday in Church? More than likely, never. Why?

Perhaps because it isn’t an orthodox Catholic belief?

Although I should let your fellow-Catholics be judges of that.

Edwin

 

[losh14]

haha you should also check this out =P
landoverbaptist.org/news0105/wow.html

I think Landover is a parody of fundamentalist Christianity, but it reminds me of a group in Oklahoma that sued, in Court, to have force of law remove all people they deemed non-saved from a 10-mile radius, including Catholics.

 

[Contarini]

There’s a difference between violence porn and sexual porn. Someone correct me if I’m wrong but the Church seems to be more against the latter.

Excuse me? It’s just that the latter has been around longer so there’s a better-established tradition condemning it.

Edwin

 

[losh14]

The Church condemns both simulated violence and sexual pornography. The latter includes anything that removes the sexual act from the intimacy of licit consensual intercourse. The former hasn’t been as well-defined.

Maybe it would help to pose the comparison that anything sexual that brings one to lust is considered pornographic, anything that brings one to bloodlust should be considered simulated violence. If such a comparison is apt, then we can delegate a fine line in media-based entertainment between what is allowable and what is inherently sinful, even to the point of declaring certain video games and movies morally acceptable or intrinsically evil. Perhaps Patrician III would fall into the former and Manhunt into the latter. This should be viewed in the wider context that excessive entertainment remains sloth, while a balanced life that includes some leisure is appropriate.

 

[agbasinger]

Jack Chick has a tract on how playing Dungeons and Dragons leads this poor girl into the occult, because playing D&D “taught” her how to do spells and turned her into a witch. And another girl in the tract kills herself because her character died.

“Okay, I roll and cast Fireball.”
“Your Fireball fails and the dragon kills you.”
“Oh, crud. Can anyone rez me?”
“Everyone want to roll and see if they can rez her? Sorry, no one can rez you. Okay, the rest of the party continues into town. Jen, you create a new character and meet us at the tavern.”

My sweetie, who was a Dungeon Master for about 15 years, says he’s never once heard of anyone becoming even slightly depressed because a character dies. Character dies, you make a new one. And the idea that any RPG game teaches someone how to actually do magic? That’s hilarious! It’s only the Christians that think that (and I thought only the evangelical Protestants), not the people who actually ARE involved in magic and the occult.

However, like someone else said, World of Warcraft couldn’t be more addictive if it were designed to be so by a panel of psychologists. I saw a cartoon that showed a police officer at the door with a toddler, saying “We found him wondering around.” The mother said, “OH! I wondered where he was … hey, will you babysit for a couple of hours while we finish this raid?”

I agree! I played D&D on Friday night and had a wonderful time at Mass on Sunday.

It’s all about perspective and intention.

I wish I could talk more but I’ve got to polish my video game controllers

 

[losh14]

Jack Chick has a tract on how playing Dungeons and Dragons leads this poor girl into the occult, because playing D&D “taught” her how to do spells and turned her into a witch.

If anyone is in doubt, Jack Chick ranks up there with L. Ron Hubbard in terms of general understanding of reality.

However, like someone else said, World of Warcraft couldn’t be more addictive if it were designed to be so by a panel of psychologists.

Addiction is an interesting point when it comes to sin. Because willfully leading yourself into addiction is sinful, it is best to avoid such activities, but is it sin to take part in an activity that could be addicting? I think it depends upon the activity.

Take gambling. Not all who play become addicted, even those who gamble often and a great deal. When I worked in the casino industry (in a less enlightened time) I would try to counter claims that video poker amounted to “electronic morphine”. I think that’s an apt metaphor for some video games, applied to certain people. The best defense I could find in the research was that for some people who are predisposed, it is electronic morphine. For others, they budget $100 a month (or week) and when that’s gone they have dinner and go home.

Compare gambling with WoW and other MMOGs. The addictive factor comes from dopamine release in the reward pathways of the brain. The reward comes from achievement of a certain goal - in gambling, it’s a payout, while in RPGs it’s hitting a new level or attaining a specific item or completing a quest. In gambling, the difference between a casual player and an addict comes out when you offer them the largest amount of money they could win in one year provided they don’t enter the casino again. The casual player will be thrilled and find something else to do. The gambler will be devastated over the loss of the source of their high.

I think it’s the same way with MMOGs. Take the player to the end of the game - highest level or completion of final quest. Casual players will move on, addicted players will be mortified that their fun is over.

I need to get my friend who studies addiction psychology in here.

In case anyone is wondering, I quit the casino after I realized that I saw the same people there, night after night, and that 1% estimate for gambling addiction was either way too low, or the casino I worked at high a disproportionately high rate. Either way, I couldn’t justify staying there and contributing to that much destructive behavior.

 

[bobzills]

The Church condemns both simulated violence and sexual pornography.

So it would be a mortal sin to play either Crysis or Halo?

 

[losh14]

Okay, now I’m trying to find a source for my earlier statement taht simulated violence is condemned. I don’t find anything in the catechism, although Pope Benedict has issued at least one statement admonishing against the marketing of violent video games (and other violent media) to children:

“Any trend to produce programmes and products - including animated films and video games - which in the name of entertainment exalt violence and portray anti-social behaviour or the trivialization of human sexuality is a perversion, all the more repulsive when these programmes are directed at children and adolescents. How could one explain this ‘entertainment’ to the countless innocent young people who actually suffer violence, exploitation and abuse? In this regard, all would do well to reflect on the contrast between Christ who “put his arms around [the children] laid his hands on them and gave them his blessing” (Mk 10:16) and the one who “leads astray … these little ones” for whom “it would be better … if a millstone were hung round his neck” (Lk 17:2). Again I appeal to the leaders of the media industry to educate and encourage producers to safeguard the common good, to uphold the truth, to protect individual human dignity and promote respect for the needs of the family.”

Cite is:
212.77.1.245/news_services/bulletin/news/19598.php?index=19598&lang=it#TESTO%20ORIGINALE%20IN%20LINGUA%20INGLESE

Dated January 24, 2007…

So far I can’t find a sweeping condemnation of simulated violence. I suppose the most obvious harm is the introduction of violent material to children, but what about to adults? And I wonder if there’s a difference as to the level of realism. Crysis is pretty realistic looking. Mount & Blade, not so much. Take some like Scorched3D, and it’s entirely goofy.

So we started this thread on whether WoW was a sin given the theme matter and addictive potential, and now we’re branching out to violence and whether people should do things that are a waste of time at all.

 

[Highwayhound]

Consider the following thoughts:

1. In playing games such as World of Warcraft or an old favorite of mine Heroes of Might and Magic, one of the main goals is the gathering of resources. Be it resources to build or resources such as allies which allow you to fight. The more resources one gathers the stronger one becomes and the more likely one is to win the game.

How much time does it take to do this resource gathering and then go complete a quest? Lots of time, lots and lots of time. The opinion expressed by many is that this is a neutral exercise, but all that time takes away from the time you as a Christian could be using to plan a charity event, gather donations for poor people or pray at an abortion clinic.

In all these simulated battle games there is a tipping point where one side has a tremendous resource advantage. When that point is reached the game is effectively over. There is the mop up time to officially end the game, but it is the game is won. What if all that “game time” was spent gathering resources for a real life event?

1. This week swimming lessons are being taught at the Y.M.C.A. It is called “SPLASH WEEK” and from the talk of my co-workers something to be dreaded. Hundreds of kids in and out of the pool all day long (with all the noise, screaming, fears, etc.).

Today is day #4 and it has been a blast to be part of this event. (Except for day #1 when management bought us some really lame food to eat; Day #2 I brought some real food to eat for everyone as teaching lessons takes a lot of energy.)

The time spent interacting with these children and giving them **real life **skills is a blessing. As well, it is a chance as a Christian man to demonstrate God’s love to others by smiling, encouraging, and building confidence.

So, is World of Warcraft a sin? I am not a theologian and cannot give a definitive answer to the question. If one considers there to be a battle of good vs. evil going on this world I can answer that World of Warcraft is lousy from a tactical point of view as it robs time from the promotion of good.

Point being - time spent playing computer fanasty games is time that cannot be spent building up God’s kingdom here on earth.

God bless

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Generally, the desire to win a game is not wrong. I was referring to deliberately filling your mind with evil or Satanic thoughts which I believe is wrong. The question that I have, is what good does it do for a Christian to fill his mind with evil and Satanic thoughts? Where is it leading?

The problem is you initially assume that the thoughts you get from playing violent games are “evil”. It’s not easy to lump all violence in video games under one biased category. In one game, the violence is against nothing more than mindless, savage beasts so where’s the evil in that? Other games have you fighting for a morally complex cause that you’ll have to treat it on an individual, case-to-case basis. The only games I’ve seen that glorify violence in a clearly evil way are games like Manhunt and GTA. However, it’s not like they speak for the whole video game industry.

And don’t even get me started on how some of the action I’ve seen in some video games are impossible to re-enact in real life.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Consider the following thoughts:

1. In playing games such as World of Warcraft or an old favorite of mine Heroes of Might and Magic, one of the main goals is the gathering of resources. Be it resources to build or resources such as allies which allow you to fight. The more resources one gathers the stronger one becomes and the more likely one is to win the game.

How much time does it take to do this resource gathering and then go complete a quest? Lots of time, lots and lots of time. The opinion expressed by many is that this is a neutral exercise, but all that time takes away from the time you as a Christian could be using to plan a charity event, gather donations for poor people or pray at an abortion clinic.

In all these simulated battle games there is a tipping point where one side has a tremendous resource advantage. When that point is reached the game is effectively over. There is the mop up time to officially end the game, but it is the game is won. What if all that “game time” was spent gathering resources for a real life event?

1. This week swimming lessons are being taught at the Y.M.C.A. It is called “SPLASH WEEK” and from the talk of my co-workers something to be dreaded. Hundreds of kids in and out of the pool all day long (with all the noise, screaming, fears, etc.).

Today is day #4 and it has been a blast to be part of this event. (Except for day #1 when management bought us some really lame food to eat; Day #2 I brought some real food to eat for everyone as teaching lessons takes a lot of energy.)

The time spent interacting with these children and giving them **real life **skills is a blessing. As well, it is a chance as a Christian man to demonstrate God’s love to others by smiling, encouraging, and building confidence.

So, is World of Warcraft a sin? I am not a theologian and cannot give a definitive answer to the question. If one considers there to be a battle of good vs. evil going on this world I can answer that World of Warcraft is lousy from a tactical point of view as it robs time from the promotion of good.

Point being - time spent playing computer fanasty games is time that cannot be spent building up God’s kingdom here on earth.

God bless

Hey, not all of us are charismatic event organizers or charity runners. Neither are all of us teachers or are good with kids. Those are pretty much the qualities of leaders or people who make it into a dean’s list if you know what I mean.

And once again, I’m a little irritated that people are trying to put spirituality and entertainment into the same box. If I want spirituality, I go to mass or read the Bible and stuff like that. If I wanna have fun though, then it’s off to Azeroth (or some other gameworld like Rune-Midgard, Tamriel etc). Once again, it’s all a question of moderation vs addiction.

Besides, playing these video games takes a lot of skill on their own. Unlike gambling (as someone else mentioned), these things aren’t wholly dependent on pure chance. Trust me, this is coming from a guy who used to get his butt kicked all the time in these games because he was such a noob (with an equally noobish stat build). You need good reflexes, good point/money managing skills, as well as a bit of math to calculate damage and stats. You’d also be a little surprised about how these games can teach you about basic economic concepts (e.g. Supply and Demand).

 

[losh14]

Hey, not all of us are charismatic event organizers or charity runners. Neither are all of us teachers or are good with kids. Those are pretty much the qualities of leaders or people who make it into a dean’s list if you know what I mean.

A very good point. Very few of us can live up to the ideal in Mark 10:21. You could always say that no matter how much substantive good you’re doing, you could do more. No matter how of the Kingdom you’ve built today, you could put one more stone in place. There are living Saints who truly deny themselves daily and live with a fully self-giving, self-emptying love, but I know that not all of us who are faithful Catholics and sincere in our faith can live up to this. As Jesus said in Mt 19:11 “the one who can accept this should accept it.”

If we discover and use our gifts wisely, that should not preclude our taking time to rest and renew in whatever way we do it. Likewise, if we utterly neglect our gifts, we have no right to seek rest for we have done no work. Our lives require balance.

Highwayhound’s point:

Point being - time spent playing computer fanasty games is time that cannot be spent building up God’s kingdom here on earth.

could be extended to television, movies, fiction books or even non-fiction books that are about matters unrelated to faith. I think this would involve being unnecessarily hard on ourselves.

Highwayhound, I appreciate everything you’re doing for these kids, and it’s even better that you earn income doing this for the kids.

I work in marketing research as a statistician. My work doesn’t further the kingdom - it involves helping businesses to reach their customers better. I’m often working at night and weekends and that doesn’t leave me time to get involved with charity work as I did in college, not to mention that we have a baby on the way and I’m studying for a professional certification. Sometimes I wonder if the volunteer coordinator for our local Catholic Charities is retired, because the sole opportunities seem to arise during business hours.

So that hour I play games either when my wife is on the phone with her mom or when she’s asleep and I can’t sleep cause I’m still running on all thrusters, that’s time I’d love to give to some good cause.

Maybe we need a Busy Persons’ Apostolate - to help organize people with limited free time to do tasks that can be done piecemeal.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Maybe we need a Busy Persons’ Apostolate - to help organize people with limited free time to do tasks that can be done piecemeal.

I second that. One thing I find both unique yet sad about this century is that the high-speed technology results in people being busier than ever. I think Mother Theresa said something about that (can’t remember the exact words though). Still, what makes it worse is that you can’t really avoid it anymore (unless you’re Amish if you know what I mean). I myself am not only busy juggling work and school, all the while trying to work on my writing projects, I find myself going crazy without at least venting my stress via a few hours of gaming (online or offline). I guess that could be another reason why some people get hooked. It’s not good to bottle up frustration after all.

 

[bobzills]

A Our lives require balance.
Highwayhound’s point:
could be extended to television, movies, fiction books or even non-fiction books that are about matters unrelated to faith. I think this would involve being unnecessarily hard on ourselves…

I think you have to be hard on yourself and not luke warm because according to Scripture:
“I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot. But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, nor hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.” - Apocalypse 3:16