Islam 101 For Christians

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Loginus,
Since the claim is that the God of the Muslims is the same as the God of the Christians, discussion of the God of the Jews is irrelevant and nothing more than a red herring.

From my atheist understanding, Jesus Christ is the link between the Christian God and the Jewish God - so if one believes in Christianity one would say that both Gods are the same. Note that a Jew’s view is irrelevant here as he/she would obviously claim that they are not the same - as he/she would not accept Jesus Christ.

What is relevant here is that the Muslim Allah persecutes Christians, and misunderstands Christian theology. Thus, the Muslim Allah cannot be the same as the Christian God.

I know Muslims would claim so, and also people who lack the understanding of Islam (irrespective of their position in Church hierarchy). But until you can reconcile how your God would force you to convert to Islam or submit yourself to persecution, you have to admit that the Muslim Allah is not the God of Jesus Christ.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Similarities between the Taiping Religion and Islam.

Hung Hsiu-ch’üan suffered a nervous breakdown and began to see visions. Ditto Muhammad.

Hung Hsiu-ch’üan learnt a bastardized form of Christianity from word of mouth/ missionary pamphlets. Ditto Muhammad.

Hung Hsiu-ch’üan believed himself a prophet/messiah. Ditto Muhammad.

Hung Hsiu-ch’üan plagiarized Christianity. Ditto Muhammad.

Hung Hsiu-ch’üan prohibited idolatry. Ditto Muhammad.

Hung Hsiu-ch’üan began a peaceful proselytizing of his faith. Ditto Muhammad.

Hung Hsiu-ch’üan practised polygamy. Ditto Muhammad.

Hung Hsiu-ch’üan prohibited alcohol. Ditto Muhammad.

Hung Hsiu-ch’üan was a military leader who killed people for not following his religion. Ditto Muhammad. Hung caused the Taiping rebellion and cause the deaths of 30 million people.

So, is the God of the Taipings the same as the God of Jesus Christ?

 

[Loginus]

Similarities between the Taiping Religion and Islam.

Hung Hsiu-ch’üan suffered a nervous breakdown and began to see visions. Ditto Muhammad.

Hung Hsiu-ch’üan learnt a bastardized form of Christianity from word of mouth/ missionary pamphlets. Ditto Muhammad.

Hung Hsiu-ch’üan believed himself a prophet/messiah. Ditto Muhammad.

Hung Hsiu-ch’üan plagiarized Christianity. Ditto Muhammad.

Hung Hsiu-ch’üan prohibited idolatry. Ditto Muhammad.

Hung Hsiu-ch’üan began a peaceful proselytizing of his faith. Ditto Muhammad.

Hung Hsiu-ch’üan practised polygamy. Ditto Muhammad.

Hung Hsiu-ch’üan prohibited alcohol. Ditto Muhammad.

Hung Hsiu-ch’üan was a military leader who killed people for not following his religion. Ditto Muhammad. Hung caused the Taiping rebellion and cause the deaths of 30 million people.

So, is the God of the Taipings the same as the God of Jesus Christ?

Honi the “circle-drawer”- A teacher, died about 100yrs before Jesus
-He was given his name because of a tradition that he prayer to God for much needed rain and drew a circle around himself. God always answered
-Said to have been a revered teacher and miracle worker who called himself the son of God

• He was martyered outside the walls of Jerusalem around the time of passover
  -To punish the jews that had brought about his Death, God sent a powerful windstorm that desvasted their crops

"haina ben Dosa (= son of Dosa) 1century C.E
-could intervene with God to make raid fall
-had the power to heal the sick
-could confront evil demons and force them to do his bidding
Like jesus, he was reputedly called the Son of God by a voice from the heavens

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

What’s your point, Loginus?

Are you saying we should just accept it the claims of false prophets?

You did not answer why Christians should accept that the Muslim Allah is the God of Jesus Christ when the Muslim Allah forces them to convert to Islam or submit to Muslim persecution.

Does that sound like the God of Jesus Christ?

 

[Loginus]

What’s your point, Loginus?

Are you saying we should just accept it the claims of false prophets?

You did not answer why Christians should accept that the Muslim Allah is the God of Jesus Christ when the Muslim Allah forces them to convert to Islam or submit to Muslim persecution.

Does that sound like the God of Jesus Christ?

Im saying what if Jesus was the false prophet? There were certainly many who came before and during his time who the same miracles, ahd the same claims and same teachings as him.

When it comes down to it, 2 out of the 3 Abrahamic religions say Jesus wasnt the son of God.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Loginus:

Im saying what if Jesus was the false prophet? There were certainly many who came before and during his time who the same miracles, ahd the same claims and same teachings as him.

So what? Do people who claim prophet before and after Jesus invalidate his claim to be the messiah of the Christians? No.

My point about Hung Hsiu Chuan is that he also claimed that his god is the same God as that of Jesus Christ and we don’t accept his word just because he claim so.

My test of whether the Muslim Allah is the same as the God of Jesus Christ has already been given - which you have studiously avoided.

Loginus:

When it comes down to it, 2 out of the 3 Abrahamic religions say Jesus wasnt the son of God.

First of all, Judaism does not disprove Jesus as the Son of God.

Secondly, Muhammad invalidated his religion through his evil behavior and his lack of understanding of Christianity and Judaism - thus the Muslim Allah could not have been the God of Jesus Christ nor the God of the Jews. Therefore, it is irrelevant what Islam says about Jesus Christ as Islam is false anyway.

 

[Loginus]

So what? Do people who claim prophet before and after Jesus invalidate his claim to be the messiah of the Christians? No.

My point about Hung Hsiu Chuan is that he also claimed that his god is the same God as that of Jesus Christ and we don’t accept his word just because he claim so.

My test of whether the Muslim Allah is the same as the God of Jesus Christ has already been given - which you have studiously avoided.

First of all, Judaism does not disprove Jesus as the Son of God.

Secondly, Muhammad invalidated his religion through his evil behavior and his lack of understanding of Christianity and Judaism - thus the Muslim Allah could not have been the God of Jesus Christ nor the God of the Jews. Therefore, it is irrelevant what Islam says about Jesus Christ as Islam is false anyway.

Well considering the Catholic church developed what some would call a homocidal lust soon after it got its mits on some power.

Only reason its so ‘nice’ today is because it got defanged during the Reinansance (sp?) and the Enlightenment. So then, is Catholism false as well?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Why the red herring? Does the actions of the Catholic Church prove or disprove the teachings of Jesus Christ? No.

You have failed to answer the question and am merely engaging in tu quoque.

May I remind you of the question at hand: is the Muslim Allah the same as the God of Jesus Christ?

The answer must be no, irrespective of what the Catholic Church has done.

 

[Loginus]

Why the red herring? Does the actions of the Catholic Church prove or disprove the teachings of Jesus Christ? No.

You have failed to answer the question and am merely engaging in tu quoque.

May I remind you of the question at hand: is the Muslim Allah the same as the God of Jesus Christ?

The answer must be no, irrespective of what the Catholic Church has done.

Simple, it considers Christians defilers of one of the Messages of God to them. Essentially making them Heratics (sp?). From what I know, pursuing heracy is a live-long tradition for any Abrahamic religon. At the very least, islam asks you disassociate with either Jews or Christians, unless they are just, then go for it.

The Church just tortures and burned ppl as far as ino

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Loginus:

Simple, it considers Christians defilers of one of the Messages of God to them. Essentially making them Heratics (sp?). From what I know, pursuing heracy is a live-long tradition for any Abrahamic religon. At the very least, islam asks you disassociate with either Jews or Christians, unless they are just, then go for it.

The Church just tortures and burned ppl as far as ino

Loginus,
You’re not making any sense. We’re talking about whether the Muslim Allah is the same as the God of Jesus Christ and you want to talk about the actions of Christians.

How do these actions prove that the Muslim Allah is the same as the God of Jesus Christ?

 

[Valke2]

If there is only one God, then our choices are pretty limited. I’d say its a good bet we are all worshipping the same one.

 

[Loginus]

Loginus,
You’re not making any sense. We’re talking about whether the Muslim Allah is the same as the God of Jesus Christ and you want to talk about the actions of Christians.

How do these actions prove that the Muslim Allah is the same as the God of Jesus Christ?

Im showing how Islam’s actions are identical the Church of Old.

Your arguement is based on how can Islam have its ppl kill christians seing as they believe in the same God. Simple, they view Christianity as heracy. The same tactic was used by Protestants and Catholics to justify their wars agaisnt each other.

So unless you believe Protestants and jews also worship different gods than catholics, your point is moot

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

My observations on this topic:

Just because some person claims to be a prophet of the God of Abraham does not make it so.

Muhammad claimed to be the prophet of the God of Abraham. But on examining the characteristics of this ‘God’ (called the Muslim Allah) and the behavior of this so-called prophet, one can see that Muhammad was a false prophet. And hence, the Muslim Allah is no god at all, and certainly not the God of Abraham.

Many people also claim to be prophets/messiahs of the God of Abraham. We could have had a fourth Abrahamic faith in China with the Taiping religion. What saved the world from this false religion was the victory of the Qing imperial forces who managed to quell the Taiping rebellion in 1864 - bringing to end a 13 year reign of terror. Hung committed suicide and his ‘religion’ was destroyed with his death.

The only difference between Islam and the Taiping religion is that Muhammad was victorious in battle, while Hung was defeated. If Hung had won - there would undoubtedly be a fourth Abrahamic religion.

BTW: in 2001 there was yet another Abrahamic faith when a Chinese woman named Zheng claimed to be the female reincarnation of Jesus Christ. The Communist Chinese government dealt with her and thus, prevented a fifth Abrahamic faith.

So, just because someone claims to be a prophet of the God of Abraham does not make it so.

Like the song: ‘it ain’t necessarily so.’

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

If there is only one God, then our choices are pretty limited. I’d say its a good bet we are all worshipping the same one.

That is only when you presume that other faiths do not worship a false god.

Suppose I made up a religion and said my dog is God. Would you say my dog, Betsy, is the God of Abraham? It’s just claims, buddy. Doesn’t mean it’s true.

 

[Valke2]

That is only when you presume that other faiths do not worship a false god.

Suppose I made up a religion and said my dog is God. Would you say my dog, Betsy, is the God of Abraham? It’s just claims, buddy. Doesn’t mean it’s true.

I guess will have to ask Him when we get there.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Im showing how Islam’s actions are identical the Church of Old.

Your arguement is based on how can Islam have its ppl kill christians seing as they believe in the same God. Simple, they view Christianity as heracy. The same tactic was used by Protestants and Catholics to justify their wars agaisnt each other.

So unless you believe Protestants and jews also worship different gods than catholics, your point is moot

I think you have mistaken the actions of the adherents of the relevant religions and the central teachings of their prophets.

In the Quran, surah 9:29 the Muslim Allah said to convert those who do not believe in Allah by force, or if they are people of the book they are permitted to practise their religion so long as they agree to live under persecution.

So, it is not the actions of the Muslims that are under question but the actions of the Muslim Allah.

In Islam, the Muslim Allah persecutes Christians. So it beggars belief that this Muslim Allah can be the same God of Jesus Christ who loves Christians.

There is a difference between love and persecution. I hope you understand that.

 

[bella5110]

Where are all the Muslims on here?? That is why I started the thread? Can’t you Muslims defend your own “religion?” Or are you afraid you just don’t have the answer…

 

[Loginus]

I think you have mistaken the actions of the adherents of the relevant religions and the central teachings of their prophets.

In the Quran, surah 9:29 the Muslim Allah said to convert those who do not believe in Allah by force, or if they are people of the book they are permitted to practise their religion so long as they agree to live under persecution.

So, it is not the actions of the Muslims that are under question but the actions of the Muslim Allah.

In Islam, the Muslim Allah persecutes Christians. So it beggars belief that this Muslim Allah can be the same God of Jesus Christ who loves Christians.

There is a difference between love and persecution. I hope you understand that.

Actually, the word isnt persecution, it is Jizyah. It is a tax. Fair? No but not as bad

As for the fighting, it is most likely more of a defence of faith that going out and conquering the world.

As the following shows “Truely God commands you give back trusts to those to whom they are due, and when you judge between people, to judge with justice” (4: 58
-“And let not the hatred of others make you avoid justive. Be just: that is nearer to piety…”(5:8)

“God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers” (60:8)

Theres one particular Surah where it states very clearly the only justification for invading someone is if they pose a threat to your existance and even then, it should only be to get them to stop. Dont have the time to look for it atm, perhaps someone could hlp?

To Rodrigo, sure there is some unsightly verses but depending on your interpretation they can mean many things. Again, same as the bible. Even the most peaceful and loving religions have had their words interpreted to commit acts of violence.

 

[Loginus]

Where are all the Muslims on here?? That is why I started the thread? Can’t you Muslims defend your own “religion?” Or are you afraid you just don’t have the answer…

Why even bother argueing with you Bella? Everytime someone corners you all you do ignore the post of claim it blasphomus as say they dont have your [sarcasim] ‘great faith’.

If you honestly wanted a decent answer then youd post this on a Islamic apologetics forums and have the courage to stick around instead of trying to pick fights here where obviously the majority will agree with you.

 

[Valke2]

Isn’t the majority agreeing with bella mean the seventh seal has been broken or something? These threads are getting too argumentative and not really focusing on anything that has to do with religion. Someone start something interesting and worth discussing. There has to be something other than fear of jihad on people’s minds.