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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
By the way, does anyone know what the Arab Christians and Jews use to translate Jehoveh and Yahweh?
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Valke2
Guest
Yahweh wouldn’t be used by Jews. Although since it is a word for God, then really the use of Allah would suffice.
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inJESUS
Guest
can someone give me a passage using Jehovah and Yahweh and i’ll look it up in my Arabic Bible.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
How about Isaiah 48:16-17?
Come near to Me, hear this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning. From its being, I was there; and now the Lord Jehovah, and His Spirit, has sent Me.
So says Jehovah, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, I am Jehovah your God -"
Let’s see if the Arabic Bible ignores the word ‘Jehovah’.
Come near to Me, hear this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning. From its being, I was there; and now the Lord Jehovah, and His Spirit, has sent Me.
So says Jehovah, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, I am Jehovah your God -"
Let’s see if the Arabic Bible ignores the word ‘Jehovah’.
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inJESUS
Guest
in Arabic Lord Jehovah is translated : assayed al Rabb which is more or less The Lord God. In other words Jehovah is translated as Rabb.
btw, in this passage God and His Spirit are considered 2 persons if not mistaken.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Thanks inJesus,
This shows that the Arabic Bible is not exact in its translation.
This shows that the Arabic Bible is not exact in its translation.
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Valke2
Guest
but its impossible for any book to be exact in its translation. All translation is commentary, right?
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Well, if the Arabic translators do not know how to translate Yahweh/Jehovah, perhaps it might be more appropriate (as other translators have done - e.g. the Greeks and the English) to transliterate.
Using al-Rabb seems to me either a mistranslation of Jehovah, a replacement of Jehovah with Adonai, a sidestepping of the issue of the proper name of God, or an attempt to syncretize the Bible with the Quran.
Using al-Rabb seems to me either a mistranslation of Jehovah, a replacement of Jehovah with Adonai, a sidestepping of the issue of the proper name of God, or an attempt to syncretize the Bible with the Quran.
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murtad
Guest
Arabic Bible? Should it not be Arabic translation of the Holy Bible? The Bible was written in Hebrew for the Old Testament part and in Aramaic for the New Testament part. Muslims will never call a translation of the Quran as Quran but only tafsir Quran.
The Malaysian law (ie Quranic Text Act) makes it is illegal to call any translation by the name Quran. The penalty is fine, jail and whipping.
BTW, I’m just curious and would like to know which Arabic translation of the Holy Bible do you use? Is it NIV? I can read Arabic, which I learnt during Islamic Studies class however its not my mother tongue.
InJesus, are you a murtad from Islam? What type of murtad? Murtad fitri? If you are willing, can you share with us why you left Islam?
On why I left Islam, I’ve written a paper available here.
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meedo
Guest
So we come out of this thread that the bible in Arabic doesnt use the correct word of God? Just because it use Allah?
All arab christians are wrong and Rodrigo is right. Even all arab jews are wrong and Rodrigo is right.
Many people on This forum are hell bent on proving that Muslims dont worship the God of Abraham because they call him Allah ,
well please read the following verse
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YUSUFALI: Say: “Call upon Allah, **or **call upon Rahman: by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Neither speak thy Prayer aloud, nor speak it in a low tone, but seek a middle course between.”
PICKTHAL: Say (unto mankind): Cry unto Allah, or cry unto the Beneficent, unto whichsoever ye cry (it is the same). His are the most beautiful names. And thou (Muhammad), be not loud-voiced in thy worship nor yet silent therein, but follow a way between.
SHAKIR: Say: Call upon Allah or call upon, the Beneficent Allah; whichever you call upon, He has the best names; and do not utter your prayer with a very raised voice nor be silent with regard to it, and seek a way between these.
a muslim can never utter the world Allah in his life and still be a muslim.
Muslims believe in the God of Moses and Abraham and Ishmael and Isac and Jacob and Jesus and Muhammed. One God. One person . One entity. Indivisable . Supreme and merciful. Loving and Just . Vengeful and powerful. Created everything . Doesnt need a son or a companion or a partner.
salam
All arab christians are wrong and Rodrigo is right. Even all arab jews are wrong and Rodrigo is right.
Many people on This forum are hell bent on proving that Muslims dont worship the God of Abraham because they call him Allah ,
well please read the following verse
017.110
YUSUFALI: Say: “Call upon Allah, **or **call upon Rahman: by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Neither speak thy Prayer aloud, nor speak it in a low tone, but seek a middle course between.”
PICKTHAL: Say (unto mankind): Cry unto Allah, or cry unto the Beneficent, unto whichsoever ye cry (it is the same). His are the most beautiful names. And thou (Muhammad), be not loud-voiced in thy worship nor yet silent therein, but follow a way between.
SHAKIR: Say: Call upon Allah or call upon, the Beneficent Allah; whichever you call upon, He has the best names; and do not utter your prayer with a very raised voice nor be silent with regard to it, and seek a way between these.
a muslim can never utter the world Allah in his life and still be a muslim.
Muslims believe in the God of Moses and Abraham and Ishmael and Isac and Jacob and Jesus and Muhammed. One God. One person . One entity. Indivisable . Supreme and merciful. Loving and Just . Vengeful and powerful. Created everything . Doesnt need a son or a companion or a partner.
salam
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murtad
Guest
Meedo, there is no Bible in Arabic, since the Bible was written in Hebrew (Old Testament) and in Syriac (New Testament). There are translations of the Bible in various Arabic dialects, and any translation is prone to error. I am sure, you, Muslims also believe all translations of the Quran are imperfect and errant.
What do you mean by “Arab Christian” ? AFAIK, North Africa and the Levant (Lebanon, Syria, Israel, and Jordan) were either Coptic-speaking or Syriac-speaking before the Islamic invasion. So, Middle Eastern Christians are simply Arabic-speaking since their mother tongues are dead. Many of them do not consider themselves Arabs, and in fact consider Arab as an insult.
As for Jews, every Jew, irrespective Arab, Chinese, or Russian worship God in Hebrew language, for it is the language of the Holy Torah. Even the great Rambam (Maimonedes) prayed in Hebrew for it is idolatry to worship in a human language, such as Arabic.
And these many people have succeeded in proving so.
Considering the above verse, why do Muslims who are not Arabs refuse to worship God by using names other than Allah? Why is it when they perform Solat, they have got to pray to Allah, and not God, Yahweh, Adonay, or Moryo?
Can you explain how? The 1 billion-strong Muslim Ummah scream in Arabic five times a day to the Arab idol, Allah Subhana Wa Taala. If they perform Solat by using any name other than Allah (such as God, Yahweh, Adonay, or Moryo) they will be executed for apostacy.
You forgot to add that Muslims also believe the Torah and Injeel have been long lost and what remains is a corrupted form of them. The so-called “Allah Subhana Wa Taala” must be too weak to protect his past books. If that is the case, then he certainly cannot be powerful.
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Valke2
Guest
there are hundreds of siddurim (prayer books) that are in English and Hebrew. I don’t believe praying in your native tongue is idolatry. I’ll have to look into that.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Isn’t this a forum for theological discussion? What’s the point of discussion if we do not present differing views?
I find it strange that the Arabic translation of the Bible has avoided the proper name of God, Yahweh/Jehovah, while most other translations transliterate that word. I know in Afrikaans Jehovah is not translated but substituted as ‘Lord’. This is because they believe that no mortal should utter the name of God - but that is a public stance from the early Boer days.
So what’s the problem with the Arabic translators? Why do they use Rabb instead of Yahweh? After all, they do transliterate other old testament names - even Isa is a transliteration of Iesu, isn’t it?
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inJESUS
Guest
I don’t know why my translation uses Rabb and not Yahweh. Allah is simply the word used for God in Arabic…it is used in the context of " the God" and not His name as used in Islam…it does not mean that the Christian saying Allah has in mind the Allah who said Christians are going to hell 
Jesus is never written as Issa in the Bible
Jesus is never written as Issa in the Bible
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mosher
Guest
You may disagree but you would be wrong. It is very clear that at root Allah and Yahweh are the same albeit with different understandings. One understanding being much more grave than the other. Remember. a partial truth is not a falsity.I disagree! I do not believe that “Allah” is the same God that Jews and Christians worship. “Allah” is indecisive and petty. He cannot make his mind about things. He seems to do things by trial and error. Can the God that created the whole universe act so erratically? There is a very human mentality in “Allah”. The God we know only hates sin, Allah hates sinners, except Muslims, of course!I believe that “Allah” is Muhammad’s alter ego and that he does not exist anywhere else except in the pages of the Quran. Muhammad was a narcissistic psychopath who wanted supreme power for himself, so he created his own “god” who would do his bidding, and invented “revelations” to keep his followers enslaved to him.
Your opinion about the projection of himself on Allah is the same as my theory that Socrates never really existed either. They are nice to think about but are arguments from silence and cannot be proved on way or the other at this time.
If you have studied theology then you would know that a partial truth is not a falsity.
Just do a short google search of the 99 Most Perfect Names of Allah. These help the follower of Islam to understand Allah and His nature. It would do all well to read these and understand that only a superficial understanding of Islam would come to the conclusion that Allah is some death crazed war God as some would like to point out on one end and on the other that Allah is completely other. This is also not true especially since Islam denies secondary causality which leads to a much more intimate relation between God and Man in many respects.
I don’t think that this is a reasonable position. While you are correct in toto the Patriarchies would not recognize the depiction of Allah as Yahweh. However, it is easy enough to say that there are enough similarities in characteristics both in theology and in philosophy that lend to the idea that Allah is the same God who we Worship - as I said above “A partial truth is not a falsity” - St. Thomas
Very true. For the sake of discussion I have reserved calling the God of Islam, The Jews, and the Christians - Allah, Yahweh and God respectively unless I am referencing the trinitarian person.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
I think I have made my position very clear.
mosher:
I maintain that the Muslim Allah is a figment of Muhammad’s imagination hence by definition it cannot be the truth. The God of Abraham can only be 100% the God of Abraham, not someone’s demented imagination of him.
An analogy for you:
If I imagine someone, let us say Salma Hayek. I think she has certain characteristics. Is my imagination of Salma Hayek the real Salma Hayek, even though in my imagination she looks the same and talks in a similar way (from her movies)?
The answer has to be no, because what I imagined is not the real thing.
Thus, I posit that Muhammad’s Allah is not the real God of Abraham because he made his Allah up.
St Thomas was probably not a logician. From a logical point of view a partial truth is not the truth and thus a falsity.Rodrigo:
I don’t think that this is a reasonable position. While you are correct in toto the Patriarchies would not recognize the depiction of Allah as Yahweh. However, it is easy enough to say that there are enough similarities in characteristics both in theology and in philosophy that lend to the idea that Allah is the same God who we Worship - as I said above “A partial truth is not a falsity” - St. Thomas
I maintain that the Muslim Allah is a figment of Muhammad’s imagination hence by definition it cannot be the truth. The God of Abraham can only be 100% the God of Abraham, not someone’s demented imagination of him.
An analogy for you:
If I imagine someone, let us say Salma Hayek. I think she has certain characteristics. Is my imagination of Salma Hayek the real Salma Hayek, even though in my imagination she looks the same and talks in a similar way (from her movies)?
The answer has to be no, because what I imagined is not the real thing.
Thus, I posit that Muhammad’s Allah is not the real God of Abraham because he made his Allah up.
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mosher
Guest
Do you not know who St. Thomas Aquinas is???
Per your example:
Your example is great but your conclusion does not follow. Why, because those ideas that you have in your mind about Selma Hayek that are true are indeed true in themselves. While the whole image is false it does not mean that those things that are in that image which are true become false.
This is what is means when one says that a partial truth is not a falsity.
To take it one step further we would have to say that all Jews since the beginning did not worship God because they have no concept of the Trinity. This claim would be false even though the greater truth about God is that He is Trinity.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Not intimately but I do know of him.
A degree of truth in a falsehood does not make that falsehood true. Where do you draw the line? Is 1% truth the truth? Or 100%?
I think Thomas Aquinas was basically saying that there is no error so great that there is no hint of truth in it, and no evil so great that there is no good attached to it. However, this is far from using that idea to absolve evil.
Nobody should be following a clearly evil ideology even if it contains a partial truth. It means that that ideology is false - since it is not the whole truth it cannot be divine but man-made.
My analogy is apt. My imagination of Salma Hayek is not the true Salma Hayek no matter how I may wish it to be. Only the true Salma Hayek can be that truth. If you want the true Salma Hayek - go to the source, don’t come to me since my imagination of her cannot be true.
That is false since you do not consider which concept came first. A development of an idea does not invalidate its antecedents.
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pro_universal
Guest
?? From a logical point of view? What does that mean? Are you a logician? (I don’t know why I’m even asking…the answer is obvious from your comment on Aquinas)
In that case, no person anywhere believes in the Christian, Jewish, or Muslim God, because that God is unknowable in all three. So the imagination is always wrong, and that means, by your argument, that no one actually worships God.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
- I have studied logic at University and it was an integral part of my job in one of my earlier careers.
- There is a difference between your imagination of the true God versus your imagination of someone else’s demented imagination of the true God.
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