Islam an offense to our LORD.

[Vile_Servant]

You have given solutions to your problems. I hope they benefit you. But I would not agree with any one seriously, specially the last point about some one else being on the cross instead of Jesus. I would never believe that because that was a false idea put into action by some christian monk (Priest).
Sounds far-fetched?

so you agree that it was Jesus who died on the cross?

 

[KathleenGee]

Again,

What I am seeing in Muslim posts’ is that inspite of the repetitious answers we give to them, they are not learning them or taking what is in the Bible or its innumerable commentaries in context.

The Jews were not waiting for 3 persons. They were waiting for a messiah akin to King David, more a political leader who would rule the world with justice.

And as stated before, it is easier to say Holy Trinity, human usage of the Church, to name the Three Persons in One God.

The Koran can make statements of Who God is…but the Catholic understanding of Who God is has been explained as well through Aristotlian erudite tradition in the works of St. Thomas of Aquinas and others, employing the use of reason, of philosophy. After all, there were Muslim scholars who also studied Aristotle, Plato, and Neo Platism.
But the later fundamentalist Muslim leaders were afraid the prior scholars would then lead into the denial of God.

You can explain reality from the mere reference of reason, and then you can explain from the position that God is the unmoved Mover.

So the explanation of Who God is in the Muslim sense is very limited and exclusive of any other expansions of greater understanding. Thus, it assumes it is more superior than any other religion, cannot understand the relational nature of God, does not see when it contradicts or takes out of context the tenants of others’ faiths, or recognizes the presence of God in other faiths.

I am very afraid of Islam because of its militancy and lack of commonality with other faiths…the Palestinian Christians are now being forced out as Christians are the most persecuted people in the world and most atrocities committed against them are by Muslims.

 

[Jay53]

so you agree that it was Jesus who died on the cross?

No, he believes Jesus was on the Cross, was taken down and hid away for a couple days where they used special herbs on him to heal him. Then he appeared to his disciples and then went off to India and lived to be 120 years old.

(Planten is an Ahmadi Muslim. I believe they are considered heretics by Sunni/Shia Muslims.)

 

[SonofAdam]

On the contrary, the koranic message is ambiguous, there is no coherency in the suras, they are jumbled up “so-called” revelations that Mohammed claimed to have received from the angle Gabriel. Without the Haidth, the koran is just a book of 6th century poetry. This is why the Jews and even the Christians who lived in Arabia, did not accept him as a prophet.

36:69 AND [thus it is:] We have not imparted to this [Prophet the gift of] poetry, nor would [poetry] have suited this [message]: it is but a reminder and a [divine] discourse, clear in itself and clearly showing the truth,

Muhammad Asad-This passage resumes the theme enunciated in the opening verses of this surah, namely, the revelation of the Qur’an. As in 26:224, we have here an allusion to the allegation of Muhammad’s opponents, in his own as well as in later times, that what he described as divine revelation was in reality an outcome of his own poetic invention. This the Qur’an refutes by alluding to the fundamental difference between poetry - especially Arabic poetry - and divine revelation as exemplified by the Qur’an: whereas in the former the meaning is often subordinated to the rhythm and the melody of language, in the Qur’an the exact opposite is the case, inasmuch as here the choice of words, their sound and their position in the sentence - and, hence, its rhythm and melody - are always subordinated to the meaning intended.

Imam Ibn Kathir says:

Allah does not teach His Messenger Poetry

وَمَا عَلَّمْنَـهُ الشِّعْرَ وَمَا يَنبَغِى لَهُ]

(And We have not taught him poetry, nor is it suitable for him.) Allah tells us that He has not taught His Prophet Muhammad poetry.

وَمَا يَنبَغِى لَهُ]

(nor is it suitable for him.) means, he did not know how to compose it, he did not like it and he had no natural inclination towards it. It was narrated that he never memorized a stanza of poetry with the correct meter or rhyme – he would transpose words or memorize it incompletely. In Ad-Dala’il, Al-Bayhaqi recorded that the Messenger of Allah said to Al-`Abbas bin Mirdas As-Sulami, may Allah be pleased with him:

«أَنْتَ الْقَائِلُ: أَتَجْعَلُ نَهْبِي وَنَهْبَ الْعُبَيدِ بَيْنَ الْأَقْرَعِ وَعُيَيْنَة»

(You are the one who said: "Do you distribute my booty and the booty of the servants between Al-AqraandUyainah.’’) He said, "It is Uyainah and Al-Aqra.’’ He said:

«الْكُلُّ سَوَاء»

(It is all the same.) i.e., it means the same thing. And Allah knows best. This is because Allah taught him the Qur’an, which

لاَّ يَأْتِيهِ الْبَـطِلُ مِن بَيْنِ يَدَيْهِ وَلاَ مِنْ خَلْفِهِ تَنزِيلٌ مِّنْ حَكِيمٍ حَمِيدٍ ]

(Falsehood cannot come to it from before it or behind it; sent down by the All-Wise, Worthy of all praise.) (41:42). This is not poetry, as some of the ignorant disbelievers of the Quraysh claimed; neither is it sorcery, a fabrication or a magic spell, as the misguided and ignorant people variously suggested. The Prophet was naturally disinclined to compose verse, and was forbidden to do so by Divine Law.

This is why the Jews and even the Christians who lived in Arabia, did not accept him as a prophet.

Surah 46:10 “Say: "See ye? If (this teaching) be from Allah, and ye reject it, and a witness from among the Children of Israel testifies to its similarity (with earlier scripture), and has believed while ye are arrogant, (how unjust ye are!) truly, Allah guides not a people unjust."

A lot of the scholars said this verse was revealed about Abdullah bin Salam. You need to look up the name Abdullah bin Salam(may Allaah be pleased with him). He was a Jewish Rabbi who lived in Medina(Yathrib) and became a Muslim because he recognized the Prophet(peace be upon him) in the scripture.

Jesus may have never used the word “trinity”, but he did call refer to the creator as “Father”(Mathew 6:5-14), himself as “Son” in relation to Father (John 6:37-40), and the Spirit of God as the Holy Spirit (John 14:26)…so you go figure out whether he thought the concept or no?

There were others who were considered the ‘sons of God’ within the bible; so whats your point? In the Lord’s prayer, he is quoted to have said in Mt 6:9 ‘Our father…’ In Jn 15:20-21 Jesus is quoted as saying how he was sent by the Creator and not that he was the Creator. In the same verses he is quoted saying ’ A servant is not greater than his master’. He never said he was God incarnated either; so the point still stands in my opinion.

Your right, Jesus did not say his religion is Christianity, but neither did he say his religion is Islam!. Show me one explicit statement in the New Testament where Jesus says my religion is Islam?? Also, show me from the koran where Isa says my religion is Islam, i am curious to know/

Before answering this question, can you tell me what Jesus’s religion was?

Also, what is your understanding of Prophethood? Why did Allaah send Prophets to the children of Adam(peace be upon him) in the first place?

The reason people use the word Christianity is because the teachings are based on the life and teachings of Jesus the Chrsit of Nazareth as presented in the New Testament

"Christian’’ was a nicknamed that they had adopted for themselves from outsiders, but is not a name given to them from Jesus or any other prophet.

‘’…the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch’’ Acts 11:26

 

[SonofAdam]

continuing from when you said

This is why the Jews and even the Christians who lived in Arabia, did not accept him as a prophet.

As far as christians are concerned, I have to check into that. On the other hand, Salman al Farsi (Salman the Persian)(may Allaah be pleased with him) was told by christian monks that another Prophet was going to come and teach the pure religion of Abraham. The monk also told him that the Prophet would migrate to a land in a town with a lot of palm tress. i.e. Medina. Talha Ibn 'Obaidullah(may Allaah be pleased with him) was similarly told the same thing by a christian monk.

The Christian King of Ethiopia also accepted Islam. When the Muslims were being persecuted by the pagans in Makkah, the Prophet(peace and blessings be upon him) told some of his companions to migrate to Abysiniyya(Ethiopia) because their was a just king who would protect them. When Jafar ibn Abi Talib(may Allaah be pleased with him) and the other companions went to meet the King, the pagan arabs followed them and both sides, when they arrived, told their stories. The pagan arabs tried to persuade him to let them take the Muslims back to Makkah because they were ‘rebels’ etc. Jafar ibn Abi Talib was the spokesman for the companions and he recited chapter Maryam(Mary) to the King; the King and his priest were impressed and they even cried after hearing the recitation.

Imam Ibn Taymiyyah wrote a letter to the King of Cyprus and his religious leaders and in it, he narrated the comments that the Christian King of Ethiopia said after hearing of the recitation of the Qur’an:

The Ashamah Negus was another noble Christian king. He had met the migrant believers in Abyssinia( Ethiopia) and migrated himself to Allah as a truthful believer, crying at the recitation of Soorah ( Chapter ) Maryam ( Mary ) and saying, “By God, these words and those which were revealed to Moosa( Moses ) are rays of light which have radiated from the same source!” Ashamah Negus had also sent his son, among others of his people, to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), and was prayed upon by the Prophet when he died…"

 

[Vile_Servant]

No, he believes Jesus was on the Cross, was taken down and hid away for a couple days where they used special herbs on him to heal him. Then he appeared to his disciples and then went off to India and lived to be 120 years old.

(Planten is an Ahmadi Muslim. I believe they are considered heretics by Sunni/Shia Muslims.)

i don’t see other muslims here calling planten a heretic.

 

[SonofAdam]

i don’t see other muslims here calling planten a heretic.

Actually this is the first time I have heard that planten belongs to that group; that will have to be confirmed, but I hope this is far from the case.

Qadianism or the Ahmediyyah group are not even a sect of Islam, the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah have stated that they are not even Muslims. This is not the subject but it needed to be made.

 

[tomarin]

No, I would certainly not say God is subject to random outbursts, nor did I suggest as much. I simply stated that Morality is what it is because of God.

I would go further and say it is because of his essence, which is pure goodness unadulterated by any moral imperfections. This is where we disagree, apparently.

Additionally limiting God to what your “understanding” is is exactly what I’m saying Muslims do. Perhaps Hypatia has a point when he argues that Catholics tend to do so as well, I’ve never looked deeply into it.

My understanding is the traditional, Christian “small-o” orthodox one. As I said before, throughout history some Christians have believed that God is morally arbitrary (i.e. that he is beyond good and evil), but that is not the position of traditional Christianity.

In my opinion the best statement of God comes in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (The Catholic liturgy may have something similar, I don’t know):

I love that prayer and agree with it wholeheartedly and unreservedly. The problem with your position that God is morally arbitrary, though, is that it raises the question of why we worship God if he is not morally perfect. It may explain other things like the problem of evil, but that’s a small gain offset by a huge loss.

 

[planten]

so you agree that it was Jesus who died on the cross?

As far as I am concerned, I believe that it was Jesus himself on the cross. I believe that he suffered so much that he fainted on the cross and appeared to be as a dead person. This is my belief that Jews could not kill Jesus in any way.

But you can try to confirm these views from other Muslim members here.May be they will give a different answer to you.

So I do not agree that Jesus died on the cross. I hope you understand.

 

[spn82756]

Who told you to focus so heavily on Gods stature? Not God, that’s for sure… You only say that to defend your traditions because you are too proud to accept a God who is self-sacrificing… You claim: “Thats not my Allah, He would never let men pin Him to a cross”…

Brother, you’re own pride is your worst enemy. God loved you so much He sacrificed His only Son, for you and for all – so that sins may be forgiven.

When you refuse to base your whole life on Jesus and his self-sacrifice, you deny God… Jesus is the* Word made Flesh*. If you can’t see it, then you’re no worse than the Pharisees who crucified our Lord!

And therefore…a heretic. An apostate from the true faith. The only faith.

 

[spn82756]

As far as I am concerned, I believe that it was Jesus himself on the cross. I believe that he suffered so much that he fainted on the cross and appeared to be as a dead person. This is my belief that Jews could not kill Jesus in any way.

But you can try to confirm these views from other Muslim members here.May be they will give a different answer to you.

So I do not agree that Jesus died on the cross. I hope you understand.

Nope…I don’t understand. The Gospel says he died on the cross. 600 years later a heretic comes along after listening to Satan and denies Christ. That’s it in a nutshell.

 

[Vile_Servant]

As far as I am concerned, I believe that it was Jesus himself on the cross. I believe that he suffered so much that he fainted on the cross and appeared to be as a dead person. This is my belief that Jews could not kill Jesus in any way.

But you can try to confirm these views from other Muslim members here.May be they will give a different answer to you.

So I do not agree that Jesus died on the cross. I hope you understand.

thanks for clarifying, planten.

so there is no clear Muslim teaching on this subject, then. some Muslims believe Jesus was not crucified (which is what the Quran seems to say), while other Muslims like yourself believe that Jesus was crucified.

4.157
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Can the Quran itself be interpreted in different ways?

 

[planten]

Again,

What I am seeing in Muslim posts’ is that inspite of the repetitious answers we give to them, they are not learning them or taking what is in the Bible or its innumerable commentaries in context.

The Jews were not waiting for 3 persons. They were waiting for a messiah akin to King David, more a political leader who would rule the world with justice.

KathleenGee, if they were not waiting for three persons then why did the messengers of the elders of Jews ask John the baptist:

** John 1-19And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

20And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

21And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

22Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?

23He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

24And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.

25And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet**?

Please see the above words. The elders of the Jews were waiting for three persons. It is clear from above verses as well as, again in last verse 25, again three are mentioned. Are you not trying to divert the real meaning of the things??

…

I am very afraid of Islam because of its militancy and lack of commonality with other faiths…the Palestinian Christians are now being forced out as Christians are the most persecuted people in the world and most atrocities committed against them are by Muslims.

Now you seem to be disturbed by politics. We Muslims have nothing to do with any politics here. We are simply discussing religion here and trying to ward off the false accusations of the Catholics about islam i.e. . We are trying to see what you say. But we see that you are trying to teach us the things which are not found in the bibleNT, I hope we are not at fault. Please forgive.

 

[spn82756]

KathleenGee, if they were not waiting for three persons then why did the messengers of the elders of Jews ask John the baptist:

Please see the above words. The elders of the Jews were waiting for three persons. It is clear from above verses as well as, again in last verse 25, again three are mentioned. Are you not trying to divert the real meaning of the things??

That’s your misguided interpretation. They were waiting for the Messiah…who they eventually rejected. Do not try to confuse the scriptures so as to say what you want them to say. They were waiting for the Christ.

You forgot to add:

26 John answered them, saying: I baptize with water; but there hath stood one in the midst of you, whom you know not.
27 The same is he that shall come after me, who is preferred before me: the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to loose.
28 These things were done in Bethania, beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29 The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world.

ONLY GOD CAN TAKE AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD.

Please stop your heretical use of scripture

 

[Vile_Servant]

Actually this is the first time I have heard that planten belongs to that group; that will have to be confirmed, but I hope this is far from the case.

Qadianism or the Ahmediyyah group are not even a sect of Islam, the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah have stated that they are not even Muslims. This is not the subject but it needed to be made.

The founder of the Ahmediyyah group of Islam said;
“I saw myself as if I was a woman and Allah spilled into me His reproductive power of manliness.”

So Allah is capable of having a consort as well as siring a son after all?

 

[Vile_Servant]

The founder of the Ahmediyyah group of Islam said;
“I saw myself as if I was a woman and Allah spilled into me His reproductive power of manliness.”

So Allah is capable of having a consort as well as siring a son after all?

The founder of the Ahmediyyah group of Islam also said,
“How absurd and false it is to believe that after the holy Prophet(SAW) the door to divine ‘Wahi’ has been closed for ever and there is no hope of it in the future till the day of Resurrection - Worship tales only. Can a religion having no direct trace of Almighty Allah be called a religion? I say, by God, that in this age there is none more disgusted than myself with such a religion. I name such a religion Satanic, instead of divine.”

which means that Islam religion is Satanic?

 

[spn82756]

The founder of the Ahmediyyah group of Islam also said,
“How absurd and false it is to believe that after the holy Prophet(SAW) the door to divine ‘Wahi’ has been closed for ever and there is no hope of it in the future till the day of Resurrection - Worship tales only. Can a religion having no direct trace of Almighty Allah be called a religion? I say, by God, that in this age there is none more disgusted than myself with such a religion. I name such a religion Satanic, instead of divine.”

which means that Islam religion is Satanic?

You have FINALLY hit on a point that I have been trying to make for months. The Angel Gabriel announced to Mary she would have the Son of God. So…what was the angel gabriel that mohammad saw. Nothing more than Satan disguised as an angel of light. And who would have more to gain from the rejection as Jesus as God? Satan. The god of islam.

 

[tomarin]

It seems to me that the debate between Hypatia and Nine_Two is a perfect example of the limit or ultimate poverty of scholasticism and this sort of philosophizing about God. Didn’t Aquinas himself eventually concede that all is straw? It is not that you can’t come up with some interesting hypotheticals that way, but they should stay that way, and not cross over into immutable statements about what God can or cannot do, as if it is within our power to establish such things.

Philosophizing about God is theology. I hope you’re not saying we shouldn’t engage in theological discussions on a religious message board? I come here to do that precisely because in real life almost all the people I know are secular atheists or agnostics who don’t think there’s any point in talking about God, and would have a good laugh at my expense (or become seriously alienated from me) if I tried to. I live in a social environment where hostility to God is extremely high, almost a religion itself. That’s why I’m so glad to have found CAF.

 

[SonofAdam]

The founder of the Ahmediyyah group of Islam also said,
“How absurd and false it is to believe that after the holy Prophet(SAW) the door to divine ‘Wahi’ has been closed for ever and there is no hope of it in the future till the day of Resurrection - Worship tales only. Can a religion having no direct trace of Almighty Allah be called a religion? I say, by God, that in this age there is none more disgusted than myself with such a religion. I name such a religion Satanic, instead of divine.”

which means that Islam religion is Satanic?

Even though this is not the subject…

Why do you overlook what I mentioned about the ‘Ahmediyyah’ group? The revelation is not what Ghulam Ahmad, their founder, has said. If I am correct Ghulam Ahmed also claimed to be a new prophet after Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon him).

33:40 Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

He is the Last of the Prophets

وَلَـكِن رَّسُولَ اللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَىْءٍ عَلِيماً]

(but he is the Messenger of Allah and the last of the Prophets. And Allah is Ever All-Aware of everything.) This is like the Ayah:

اللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ حَيْثُ يَجْعَلُ رِسَالَتَهُ]

(Allah knows best with whom to place His Message) (6:124). This Ayah clearly states that there will be no Prophet after him. If there will be no Prophet after him then there will surely be no Messenger after him either, because the status of a Messenger is higher than that of a Prophet, for every Messenger is a Prophet but the reverse is not the case. This was reported in many Mutawatir Hadiths narrated from the Messenger of Allah via a group of his Companions, may Allah be pleased with them. Imam Ahmad recorded a narration from Ubayy bin Ka`b, from his father that the Prophet said:

«مَثَلِي فِي النَّبِيِّينَ كَمَثَلِ رَجُلٍ بَنَى دَارًا فَأَحْسَنَهَا وَأَكْمَلَهَا، وَتَرَكَ فِيهَا مَوْضِعَ لَبِنَةٍ لَمْ يَضَعْهَا، فَجَعَلَ النَّاسُ يَطُوفُونَ بِالْبُنْيَانِ وَيَعْجَبُونَ مِنْهُ وَيَقُولُونَ: لَوْ تَمَّ مَوْضِعُ هَذِهِ اللَّبِنَةِ، فَأَنَا فِي النَّبِيِّينَ مَوْضِعُ تِلْكَ اللَّبِنَة»

(My parable among the Prophets is that of a man who built a house and did a good and complete job, apart from the space of one brick which he did not put in its place. The people started to walk around the building, admiring it and saying, "If only that brick were put in its place. ‘’ Among the Prophets, I am like that brick.) It was also recorded by At-Tirmidhi, who said "Hasan Sahih.’’

"…Abu Dawud At-Tayalisi recorded that Jabir bin `Abdullah, may Allah be pleased with him, said that the Messenger of Allah said:

«مَثَلِي وَمَثَلُ الْأَنْبِيَاءِ كَمَثَلِ رَجُلٍ بَنَى دَارًا فَأَكْمَلَهَا وَأَحْسَنَهَا إِلَّا مَوْضِعَ لَبِنَةٍ، فَكَانَ مَنْ دَخَلَهَا فَنَظَرَ إِلَيْهَا قَالَ: مَا أَحْسَنَهَا إِلَّا مَوْضِعَ هَذِهِ اللَّبِنَةِ، فَأَنَا مَوْضِعُ اللَّبِنَةِ خُتِمَ بِي الْأَنْبِيَاءُ عَلَيْهِمُ الصَّلَاةُ وَالسَّلَام»

(The parable of myself and the Prophets is that of a man who built a house and did a complete and good job, except for the space of one brick. Whoever entered it would look at that space and say, how good it is, apart from the space of that brick. My position is like that of that brick, and the Prophets – blessings and peace be upon them – end with me.) It was also recorded by Al-Bukhari, Muslim and At-Tirmidhi, who said, "It is Sahih Gharib with this chain of narrators.’’{Tafsir Ibn Kathir}

Anyway, non prophetic words can be wrong or correct; it can only be correct if it conforms to the revelation.

We don’t accept the opinions of scholars if what they say is not properly deduced from the revelation. Allaah gave divine inspiration to the Messengers and not scholars. We worship Allaah. We don’t worship scholars.

See Shaykh Muhammad Ali Sabuni’s The Sunnah of the Prophet page 89 to see the verdicts from all over the Muslim lands that declared the Ahmediyyahs non-Muslims.

 

[TEPO]

The problem is you have failed to convince our Islamic brothers of the truth of Catholicism. You proclaim Catholic Truth, but that is different from showing how it is true. Just as Muslims proclaim their doctrine and I remain unconvinced of it (I am Catholic after all), you keep proclaiming Catholic doctrine and they remain unconvinced of it.

EDIT: Is that pride on their part or is that wanting more than just your opinion?

But my mission is not to convince Muslims, but to learn from them… So far, I have learned that they worship the father of pride, because they deny that God is a self-sacrificing and loving God… They claim that the crucifixion was a hoax! Through pride they claim that God is too proud to do something so passionate.

The Sole message of the Word Made Flesh was replaced with pride.

My mission is to get Catholic’s to admit that Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation… So far, a few Catholics have refused to admit this fact… That is very saddening.