Islam an offense to our LORD.

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TEPO said:
But my mission is not to convince Muslims, but to learn from them… So far, I have learned that they worship the father of pride, because they deny that God is a self-sacrificing and loving God… They claim that the crucifixion was a hoax! Through pride they claim that God is too proud to do something so passionate.

The Sole message of the Word Made Flesh was replaced with pride.

My mission is to get Catholic’s to admit that Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation… So far, a few Catholics have refused to admit this fact… That is very saddening.
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A very sad fact. Jesus is the only way and truth and life.
 
SonofAdam said:
See Shaykh Muhammad Ali Sabuni’s The Sunnah of the Prophet page 89 to see the verdicts from all over the Muslim lands that declared the Ahmediyyahs non-Muslims.
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planten, who professes to be a Muslim, would be sad to hear that.
😦
 
SonofAdam said:
Even though this is not the subject…

Why do you overlook what I mentioned about the ‘Ahmediyyah’ group? The revelation is not what Ghulam Ahmad, their founder, has said. If I am correct Ghulam Ahmed also claimed to be a new prophet after Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon him).

33:40 Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

Anyway, non prophetic words can be wrong or correct; it can only be correct if it conforms to the revelation.

We don’t accept the opinions of scholars if what they say is not properly deduced from the revelation. Allaah gave divine inspiration to the Messengers and not scholars. We worship Allaah. We don’t worship scholars.

See Shaykh Muhammad Ali Sabuni’s The Sunnah of the Prophet page 89 to see the verdicts from all over the Muslim lands that declared the Ahmediyyahs non-Muslims.
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The Ahmediyyah group of Islam is interesting in the sense that it claims to be to Islam what Christianity is to Judaism. Anyone can claim to receive revelation from God, or to be the next Messenger from God. Prophetic words can be tested for veracity by the light of reason and faith. The indignation of the Muslim world to the Ahmediyyah group is no more than the indignation of the Judaism world to Christianity, no? 🙂
 
Vile_Servant said:
The Ahmediyyah group of Islam is interesting in the sense that it claims to be to Islam what Christianity is to Judaism. Anyone can claim to receive revelation from God, or to be the next Messenger from God. Prophetic words can be tested for veracity by the light of reason and faith. The indignation of the Muslim world to the Ahmediyyah group is no more than the indignation of the Judaism world to Christianity, no? 🙂
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If you are interested in a certain group, then this is your freedom no doubt. If someone claims to be a Muslim and goes clearly against clear cut evidences from the Qur’aan,(which is ironic anyway) you can call that indignation if you’d like but reason says otherwise.
 
planten said:
But I would not agree with any one seriously, specially the last point about some one else being on the cross instead of Jesus. I would never believe that because that was a false idea put into action by some christian monk (Priest).
Sounds far-fetched?
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…They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God." They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)… (Qur’an, 4:157)
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KathleenGee said:
Again,
The Jews were not waiting for 3 persons. They were waiting for a messiah akin to King David, more a political leader who would rule the world with justice.
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Most Jews I know are awaiting the return of Elijah (pbuh) to be as you assert .
 
This is interesting,
“wa ma qatala hu wa ma salabu hu wa lakin shubbiha lahum”

wa means: And, also, but, whilst.
lakin means; But, still, nevertheless.
shubbiha means; To be made like; A likeness or similitude.
(This could refer to: A likeness or similitude (of Jesus), or
A likeness or similitude (of Killing), or
A likeness or similitude (of Crucifixion), or
A likeness or similitude (of Killing & Crucifixion)
lahum means; Was made for them.
Translation by Professor Arthur J. Arberry:
“…yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him,
only a likeness of that was shown to them.”
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This world is only a likeness to what is real, in both religious traditions Yeshua (pbwh) came out on top even if you dont read the arabic as translated here.

I know a lot of you will be firing up your torches wanting to burn me for dare looking to find any truth in any text other than the bible, another text that does not translate without some interpretation.

But hey some seek darkness with passion others seek light.
 
Steven John, you made good effort but your translation of verse 4:157 is not uptodate.
Quote:
…They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God." They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)… (Qur’an, 4:157)
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Shubbiha Lahum refers to life and death of Jesus, not to the person of Jesus. It only means that Jesus was made to appear to them as dead. In your next post you have considered this possibility. That is good.

Please read as follows:
4;157, And their saying that they killed The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, who was a messenger of Allah: But they did not kill him nor did they kill him on the cross(Salabu), but it was made to appear to them (as dead) like that…And those who differ in that matter are in doubt about it (that they killed him on cross). They do not have any sound knowledge except their own fantasy, and surely, definitely they did not kill him, But Allah raised him (Jesus in ranks) toward Himself. And Allah is ever powerful and Full of Wisdom.
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Please note that here the false allegation is being discussed that enemies killed Jesus on the cross (Crucifixion). The same is being denied.It is the death that is under discussion, not another person. It is the death which is being described that he appeared to be dead. It does not say that it appeared to be Jesus.

Then Quran further goes on to refute the claim of enemies that they killed Jesus.It says they have no real knowledge about it. They are only following whims. They have doubts too. The elders of the Jews had never seen Jesus as actually dead and buried. They never saw his body again. The elders of the Jews had complained that the body of Jesus had been removed (stolen) and taken away some where. They tried to bribe the guards to give some statement to the effect that while they were asleep, friends of Jesus took away the body.

In the presence of such words in the bibleNT, it appears that Quran is right. Allah saved his servant (Jesus) from cursed death on the cross and saved Jesus from becoming a cursed person.

The theory of switching the person was a big attack to mislead the Muslims. That was the idea given by some christian monk. That idea of some one else on the cross is not in the Quran or Hadith.
 
planten said:
Steven John, you made good effort but your translation of verse 4:157 is not uptodate.

Shubbiha Lahum refers to life and death of Jesus, not to the person of Jesus. It only means that Jesus was made to appear to them as dead. In your next post you have considered this possibility. That is good.

Please read as follows:

Please note that here the false allegation is being discussed that enemies killed Jesus on the cross (Crucifixion). The same is being denied.It is the death that is under discussion, not another person. It is the death which is being described that he appeared to be dead. It does not say that it appeared to be Jesus.

Then Quran further goes on to refute the claim of enemies that they killed Jesus.It says they have no real knowledge about it. They are only following whims. They have doubts too. The elders of the Jews had never seen Jesus as actually dead and buried. They never saw his body again. The elders of the Jews had complained that the body of Jesus had been removed (stolen) and taken away some where. They tried to bribe the guards to give some statement to the effect that while they were asleep, friends of Jesus took away the body.

In the presence of such words in the bibleNT, it appears that Quran is right. Allah saved his servant (Jesus) from cursed death on the cross and saved Jesus from becoming a cursed person.

The theory of switching the person was a big attack to mislead the Muslims. That was the idea given by some christian monk. That idea of some one else on the cross is not in the Quran or Hadith.
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so whose version of the Quran is correct? Steven John’s or planten’s? or are there even more versions of the Quran?

🤷
 
Stephen John, Brother, get hold of Vatican II and read the documents on the Church’s stand on Islam.

There is a baseline of true religion…the Golden Rule…what is condemning is when religion condemns others, misinterprets them and wants to take power to define who it says they are, rather than who they truthfully are…and then uses that label to see them as inferiors and objects to be eradicated…

This is the spirit we are condemning…Satan is a liar and a murderer…

Peace!
 
planten said:
Steven John, you made good effort but your translation of verse 4:157 is not uptodate.

Shubbiha Lahum refers to life and death of Jesus, not to the person of Jesus. It only means that Jesus was made to appear to them as dead. In your next post you have considered this possibility. That is good.

Please read as follows:

Please note that here the false allegation is being discussed that enemies killed Jesus on the cross (Crucifixion). The same is being denied.It is the death that is under discussion, not another person. It is the death which is being described that he appeared to be dead. It does not say that it appeared to be Jesus.

Then Quran further goes on to refute the claim of enemies that they killed Jesus.It says they have no real knowledge about it. They are only following whims. They have doubts too. The elders of the Jews had never seen Jesus as actually dead and buried. They never saw his body again. The elders of the Jews had complained that the body of Jesus had been removed (stolen) and taken away some where. They tried to bribe the guards to give some statement to the effect that while they were asleep, friends of Jesus took away the body.

In the presence of such words in the bibleNT, it appears that Quran is right. Allah saved his servant (Jesus) from cursed death on the cross and saved Jesus from becoming a cursed person.

The theory of switching the person was a big attack to mislead the Muslims. That was the idea given by some christian monk. That idea of some one else on the cross is not in the Quran or Hadith.
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Planten…what comes out of your mouth here is once again pure blabber. You don’t seem to realize that Jesus was placed in the tomb. AND he was seen risen. Walking through doors and walls…while at the same time eating. Don’t tell me the koran makes more sense than the Holy Bible. And that it was a Christian monk that invented the story…years after the Gospel was written. You are only showing your ignorance of Holy Scripture. Then you use it in a sacraligious way.

Christians follow The One True God…muslims have been duped by the hater of God.
 
SonofAdam said:
One point to make is that the Qur’anic message is very clear while the teaching of the Church is very ambiguous. Jesus never taught the doctrine of trinity nor did he say that his religion is christianity.
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This comment of yours is loaded with bias that stinks of an arrogance that ought to make me laugh, but this is dead serious. The Quranic message makes no sense even to Muslims, which is why you spend so much time forcing your confusion onto the Bible and the Church. You think Trinity is confusing? I am still trying to figure out why Allah has a she-camel that jumped out of a rock!
 
GerrardLerux said:
This comment of yours is loaded with bias that stinks of an arrogance that ought to make me laugh, but this is dead serious. The Quranic message makes no sense even to Muslims, which is why you spend so much time forcing your confusion onto the Bible and the Church. You think Trinity is confusing? I am still trying to figure out why Allah has a she-camel that jumped out of a rock!
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Are you saying the Trinity is not confusing? I mean that’s why it was settled so quickly–that Filioque controversy…minor hiccup, right? Then there is the issue of the nature of Christ–just ask the Arians, eh?

Of course, now you’re going to say I’m going to burn in Hell for all eternity because I recognize the confusion of our Muslim brothers.

(The following is said w/ sarcasm): To my Muslim brothers, you’re just not getting it. See, you gotta accept the Trinity and everything else…or else…

That seems to be the real nature of Christianity: believe or burn…
 
Vile_Servant said:
so whose version of the Quran is correct? Steven John’s or planten’s? or are there even more versions of the Quran?

🤷
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Woe please,
i am sure you did not mean this as it sounds it is not my version of the Quran, well hang on not when i posted, it was Arthurs.

But in quick reflection, no prayer, it is what i saw in my heart when i first tried to read Quran.

Ironically it wasnt what the words said as i read from the Noble Quran, that I think is the same as the earlier post i made
 
nsper7 said:
Are you saying the Trinity is not confusing? I mean that’s why it was settled so quickly–that Filioque controversy…minor hiccup, right? Then there is the issue of the nature of Christ–just ask the Arians, eh?

Of course, now you’re going to say I’m going to burn in Hell for all eternity because I recognize the confusion of our Muslim brothers.

(The following is said w/ sarcasm): To my Muslim brothers, you’re just not getting it. See, you gotta accept the Trinity and everything else…or else…

That seems to be the real nature of Christianity: believe or burn.…
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Not the nature of Christianity…just what Jesus taught.
 
GerrardLerux said:
This comment of yours is loaded with bias that stinks of an arrogance that ought to make me laugh, but this is dead serious. The Quranic message makes no sense even to Muslims, which is why you spend so much time forcing your confusion onto the Bible and the Church. You think Trinity is confusing? I am still trying to figure out why Allah has a she-camel that jumped out of a rock!
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Gerrard,

You are free to believe what you want. If you are confused regarding the She-Camel, then you are also confused regarding Jesus(peace be upon him) being born of a virgin, Jesus raising the dead, Abraham(peace be upon him) not burning in the fire when he was tossed in it, the Red Sea parting for the Children of Israel, Eve(peace be upon her) being created through one male, and so on; guess you’ll be trying to figure that out as well, but again, you are free to believe what you want.

Have a nice day.
 
nsper7 said:
So you admit I am right then? Where is the love there then (question directed at God, not you)?
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We are both only correct according the Jesus. Now…who is the great adversary when it comes to Jesus? I believe that would be Satan. Who else would have the most to gain from the denial of Jesus as God?

Muslims have been mislead by the great deceiver.
 
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