Islam and Afterlife

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Hold on, full stop. I HATE when people say this. Hitler was NOT Catholic. He was baptised Catholic but later in life completely denounced Christianity. Here are some quotes from Hitler about Christianity:

**All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler: **
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together… The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity… Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death… When understanding of the universe has become widespread… Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity… Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity… And that’s why someday its structure will collapse… …the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little… Christianity [is] the liar… We’ll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:
Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer… The decisive falsification of Jesus’ doctrine was the work of St. Paul. He gave himself to this work… for the purposes of personal exploitation… Didn’t the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it’s in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St. Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery… [here he insults people who believe transubstantiation] … When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let’s be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don’t believe the thing’s possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself… Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:
There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity… My regret will have been that I couldn’t… behold its demise." (p 278).

These quotes are from the book Hitler’s Secret Conversations: 1941-1944, published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc. (1953). I got them from this site:

davidmacd.com/catholic/was_hitler_a_catholic.htm

Hitler was NOT Christian!
 
Ali…there are over 6 BILLION people on the earth. 2.1 BILLION are Christians.
1.5 Billion, the second largest, are Muslim. And the 14th largest religious group are the Jews at 14 million worldwide.

The Poster was correct. You had the world population at 6 MILLION.

The Qur’an calls Jews and Christians “People of the Book” meaning the Bible because the two groups have received genuine revelations. However, if living in a Mulim country, they are, according to Islamic law, assigned the status of “dhimmis”. Can you explain what this is about and how it came to be?
 
Christians have no rights to faith in Muslim countries. The Muslims here are pushing their rights all the time and suing us. Friendly…
 
KathleenGee said:
Christians have no rights to faith in Muslim countries. The Muslims here are pushing their rights all the time and suing us. Friendly…
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Kathleen, there’s a difference between the two. Western states are not Christian. They are secular with a secular constitution that supersedes the Bible or Church. Islamic states on the other hand use the Islamic Sharia as their constitution.

Freedom of Religion is a right afforded to all people belonging to any religion under the Canadian/American constitution. It’s unfortunate Christians and Jews are not afforded the same freedoms in Muslim countries. We have a lot of work to do before we are there.
 
It being painfully obvious that nobody here is willing to subscribe to anything other than a simplistic ‘good Christian vs evil Muslim’ view of history despite my repeated references to the historical facts, I think the time has come to abandon the futile task of arguing here.

I’m a history major, and I have taken several courses on Middle Eastern as well as European and American history. It seems that most of the people here do not come from such backgrounds, so I guess I should be more understanding of the ignorance here. But stubbornness in the face of facts and blindly repeating the same thing that racists spew about Islam is something I cannot be understanding of.

You can lead a mule to the stream but you cannot make it drink. I have told you nothing but historical fact but instead all Catholic atrocities have been written off as ‘self-defense’ or ‘not doctrinal’ whereas Islamic atrocities are used to demonize the Islamic faith. Such double standard is appalling.

I also sensed a degree of ‘patronizing’. The idea that I am a ‘dumb Muslim’ or a ‘dumb Indian’ that doesn’t know what he is speaking about.
Typical of Westerners, so I am not that surprised.

Before I go, I see one question that does not seem to be a product of bigot or hate:
The Qur’an calls Jews and Christians “People of the Book” meaning the Bible because the two groups have received genuine revelations. However, if living in a Mulim country, they are, according to Islamic law, assigned the status of “dhimmis”. Can you explain what this is about and how it came to be?
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So now let me answer it.
Dhimmi means ‘protected’ person. A dhimmi in an Islamic (not Muslim) state has to pay a token jizya tax in exchange for exemption from conscription.
A dhimmi system is not oppression, it’s merely an economic-national security arrangement.
Since non-Muslims are not to serve in the armed forces of an Islamic state (nor would it be proper for them to fight and die for a state that does not agree with their religious beliefs) they are exempted from conscription and pay the jizya instead.
Non-Muslims are also exempt from the Zakat tax (which is for Muslims). So in a sense, the two things even out.
‘Jizya for no conscription and no zakat tax’

I can understand Christian confusion or anger over being relegated as ‘dhimmis’ but honestly what do you expect from an Islamic state?
We are here to serve God first and foremost. If God tells us to treat people who blaspheme him by declaring He has a son and was incarnated as a man in a certain way, then we will do so in that certain way.
Who should we obey? God or Christian opinion on how they ‘should’ be treated in an Islamic state? If they don’t like it, they can always leave. Nobody is forcing them to stay there.

That being said, the treatment of non-Muslims in an ideal Islamic society (according to the Islamic scriptures) is nowhere as bad as the people on this thread make it out to be, mainly by citing modern day examples of Muslim states that DO NOT represent Islam or the true implementation of the Shariah.
Since none here will see reason, I see no reason to waste my time here.

Before I go, I will suggest this (though I doubt any here shall listen)

Read a history of the Crusades, and I mean a REAL history of the Crusades from a widely accepted college history textbook.

Then read a history of the Christianization of Europe from a similar widely accepted college history textbook.

And THEN read a history of the Islamization of the Middle East and North Africa from another similarly widely accepted college textbook.

Anyone who does all this, like I did in college, will come to the conclusion that:
  1. Islam as a religion was NOT spread by force. People largely converted to Islam by choice over the course of centuries.
  2. Europe was Christianized largely by force by the Catholic Church during the early Middle Ages.
  3. The Crusades were NOT a ‘noble march of valiant knights to retake the Holy Land from the evil Muslims’. The Crusades were a result of economic, political, and social tension in Western and Central Europe, Papal concern about the growing influence of the Holy Roman Empire, discontent among nobles with the European feudal system, as well as Byzantine fears over the loss of territory to the Turks, among other economic factors.
    The behavior of the Crusaders was thoroughly appalling and inhumane, even by standards of that time.
    And several of the Crusades were actually fought against fellow Christians (Orthodox), not to mention the pagan Eastern Europeans, as well as the heretical Cathars. It was not just a Christian vs Muslim thing.
I don’t know if I’ll come back to Catholic Forums or not (probably not) but I was pretty disappointed with the way most of you displayed their bigotry and ignorance.
I always thought the Catholics were the sensible and mature ones.
It’s the Protestants that are supposed to be all crazy like this. 🙂
 
Thank you for your generous answers, famdigy.

Ali, I was a history minor at Columbia, and have a double major in comparative literature, specializing in Latin and Koine Greek.

I do not find anything you’ve said factual, and find a majority to be slanted, at best. The fact that we cannot find any common ground, or even acceptance of any type of historical consensus, lends credence to my conclusion.

No one has ever supported the past sins of Catholics, or justified the many atrocities Catholics have committed, yet you seem to justify doctrinal “bigotry and ignorance” regarding these issues. Hence, “Islam is always right”, and no one (from Muhammed to the Caliphs) never did ANYTHING wrong.

I’m disappointed, too, by your words.

The sense of “patronizing” you feel might be better described as “cognitive dissonance”, and I can assure you that I for one do not care about your national identity or ethnicity.

On a side note, you have been treated FAR more charitably here than many Catholics have on Islamic forums, including me.

I will pray for you. 🙂
 
hi everyone, im new to this forum and decided to join you because i like to have religious discussions and this seems to be a good place for it.

the thread started ask “I am curious as to the understanding of why would a spirit need 72 virgins”.

I dont know if someone has answered to that but the thread started assumes that Islam considers the humans afterlife as one of being without a body. Quran states:

*"“I do swear by the Day of Resurrection. I do swear by the reproachful soul. Does man reckon We shall not gather his bones? Yes indeed; We are able to shape again the tips of his fingers.”" (75: 1-4)

“Those who reject our signs, We shall cast into the fire; as often as their skins are roasted through. We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the punishment; for Allah is Exalted in power; Wise.” ( 4:56) *

According to Islam and thats quite clear from the verses above that on the day of ressurection, humans will be resurrected with their bodies and souls united again. Thus, the hereafter is one of among others(!) bodily pleasure or pain (considering where a human being lands, in paradise or in hellfire).
 
I find it hard to believe your views unquestionably Ali when you spout the utter rubbish that Hitler is Catholic when a quick google search would prove obviously otherwise.

Look up Saint Maximilian Kolbe to see exactly how Catholic Hitler was.
 
Last Call.

Either you get back on topic and stay there or I close the thread.

This goes for everyone posting here.

The next person who posts off topic will be hearing from me.
 
Licht said:
hi everyone, im new to this forum and decided to join you because i like to have religious discussions and this seems to be a good place for it.

the thread started ask “I am curious as to the understanding of why would a spirit need 72 virgins”.

I dont know if someone has answered to that but the thread started assumes that Islam considers the humans afterlife as one of being without a body. Quran states:

*"“I do swear by the Day of Resurrection. I do swear by the reproachful soul. Does man reckon We shall not gather his bones? Yes indeed; We are able to shape again the tips of his fingers.”" (75: 1-4)

“Those who reject our signs, We shall cast into the fire; as often as their skins are roasted through. We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the punishment; for Allah is Exalted in power; Wise.” ( 4:56) *

According to Islam and thats quite clear from the verses above that on the day of ressurection, humans will be resurrected with their bodies and souls united again. Thus, the hereafter is one of among others(!) bodily pleasure or pain (considering where a human being lands, in paradise or in hellfire).
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Thank you for answering but it isn’t the idea of not having a body and having sex with 72 perpetual virgins. It is the idea that Muslims think heaven is having things denied them here on earth and in the case described above it consists of sin.

Catholics and most Protestants believe that the body will be restored at some time…the second coming of Christ. But we do not believe heaven is a place where we sin. It is such a contradiction in terms. Our heaven is to be with God. We don’t need the things of this earth.

The God I know and how I was taught is a good, loving, and just God. He demands you stay free from sin on this earth. When we sin, we repent. We can not enter God’s presence in sin. We cannot enter into paradise with the idea we’re going to have sex, drink wine, indulge in pedophile activities etc. The only being that would encourage us to engage in these activities would be Satan. Satan isn’t in heaven. Sinful activities cannot happen in heaven. It boggles my mind how a Muslim can think it does.

I’ve asked many times on this board what a Muslim woman can expect in Muslim heaven and have yet to receive an answer. Would you like to answer?
 
mr aicirt, i understood the OP as an attempt to understand another perspective while you want to engage me into a comparison while having a view of islam already in your mind and a clear preference for the christian perspective. I dont think that i want to follow your path of comparison if things are set in your mind. I feel glad that you know your place.

peace
 
Licht said:
mr aicirt, i understood the OP as an attempt to understand another perspective while you want to engage me into a comparison while having a view of islam already in your mind and a clear preference for the christian perspective. I dont think that i want to follow your path of comparison if things are set in your mind. I feel glad that you know your place.

peace
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Right now the only view I have of Islam’s Afterlife is the 72 virgins, free booze, and sex with boys if so desired. That’s it. Why 72? Why not 100 or 5?

Would someone else like to answer what a Muslim woman can expect?
 
I understand from your post that you equate physical pleasure with islamic paradise. I would say that that is not necessarily true.

The reason therefore is the nature of paradise or the nature of the hereafter in general.
 
Licht said:
I understand from your post that you equate physical pleasure with islamic paradise. I would say that that is not necessarily true.

The reason therefore is the nature of paradise or the nature of the hereafter in general.
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The above is very vague. Let’s try again.

Muslim paradise consists for men of having 72 prepetual virgins. They will be having sex with them. True or not?

Why 72?

They will be drinking wine but without the kick. True or not?
(In my mind this would be grape juice so they’re really not drinking wine. And beer without alcholol is already available here. Can a Muslim drink O’Doul’s?)

If so desired, the deceased may enjoy sexual pleasures with boys and/or young men.
True or not?

All good Muslim men go to the above to enjoy the pleasures mentioned. True or not?

If Muslim men get the above, what do Muslim women look forward too?
 
I feel like im being interrogated by you, mr aicirt, where you are dictating the terms of the conversation. You say : “The above is very vague. Let’s try again.” I say what i said above is a start and from there on we can build up - on a systematical approach - knowledge that would help us to understand just how physical the islamic perspective of paradise is.

I said that the equation of “physical pleasure to islamic paradise” is not necessarily true. And the reason therefore is the nature of paradise or the nature of the hereafter in general compared to the nature of this world. My understanding is that these two worlds are completely different on various levels. What is your understanding of what islams says about the nature of this life and the nature of our eternal life?

I use your words and say “let’s try again”?
 
Licht said:
I feel like im being interrogated by you, mr aicirt, where you are dictating the terms of the conversation. You say : “The above is very vague. Let’s try again.” I say what i said above is a start and from there on we can build up - on a systematical approach - knowledge that would help us to understand just how physical the islamic perspective of paradise is.

I said that the equation of “physical pleasure to islamic paradise” is not necessarily true. And the reason therefore is the nature of paradise or the nature of the hereafter in general compared to the nature of this world. My understanding is that these two worlds are completely different on various levels. What is your understanding of what islams says about the nature of this life and the nature of our et ernal life?

I use your words and say “let’s try again”?
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If interrogation means asking you questions about your religion,than I’m interrogating you.

I find the little I know about Islam incomprehensible. I’ve broken it down into true or false questions thinking it would be easy for you to answer.

My understanding of what Islam says about teh nature of this life and the nature of our (Muslim) eternal life is that Muslims do in paradise what is sinful here on earth. Do you comprehend how incomprehensible this is for the rest of us?

I’m left to deduce that, having not replied, all the statements are true. Otherwise, I’m sure you would be defending Islam and pointing out where we non-Muslims are wrong about your paradise.

My conclusion is Muslim men die, get 72 virgins and/or boys/young men with whom to have sex through eternity while enjoying alchololic beverages but without the alcholol.

I have repeatedly asked what in Muslim paradise like for Muslim women and have received no reply. Do Muslim women go to Muslim paradise? Guess not.

The questions I’ve asked are ones that a Muslim kid would ask. They’re not difficult.
 
you (among other people) cannot comprehend how one can endulge in activities in paradise that are sinful on earth. To quote you: “Muslims do in paradise what is sinful here on earth”

Examples given are the drinking of wine or having soul mates (what i dont understand why that would constitute an sin from an islamic understanding)

I have to ask a question before we go on. Who declares an act to be a sin? In islam it is obviously Allah, our Creator. He declares what is permitted and prohibited. Can a human being sin in the hereafter? From my understanding ‘no’ (we can discuss this further if you disagree)

If an act like i.e. drinking wine is forbidden in this life and is not forbidden in the hereafter, so i ask anyone here, why would that be a problem to anyone?
 
I notice that some have said there will be no alcohol in Heaven and I thought, “That’s not what Jesus said”.

Mark 14:25
Amen I say to you, that I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day when I shall drink it new in the kingdom of God.

Matthew 26:29
And I say to you, I will not drink from henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I shall drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.
 
Licht said:
you (among other people) cannot comprehend how one can endulge in activities in paradise that are sinful on earth. To quote you: “Muslims do in paradise what is sinful here on earth”

Examples given are the drinking of wine or having soul mates (what i dont understand why that would constitute an sin from an islamic understanding)

I have to ask a question before we go on. Who declares an act to be a sin? In islam it is obviously Allah, our Creator. He declares what is permitted and prohibited. Can a human being sin in the hereafter? From my understanding ‘no’ (we can discuss this further if you disagree)

If an act like i.e. drinking wine is forbidden in this life and is not forbidden in the hereafter, so i ask anyone here, why would that be a problem to anyone?
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Licht, based on your understanding, will there be Christians & Jews (etal) in paradise…?

Also, according to islam, what is the difference between paradise & heaven?
 
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