Islam and Afterlife

[aicirt]

To Licht

Where we agree.

“If I were not pleased with you, I would not have made you inhabitants of My Paradise”.
Muslim. We too hope God is pleased with us when we arrive in heaven/paradise.

“Must be fully cleaned from sins”. Yes, Catholics believe you must be free of sin before you can enter heaven. This is why we have confession. If you should die with a sin on your soul, you may have to go to Purgatory where, as you say, you’re “purified” although I don’t believe we are actually in fire.

“Commands him into hellfire for purification and punishment.” This would be Purgatory for Catholics. We don’t call it hell. Hell is for the damned. Souls are eventually united with God after they’ve been in Purgatory.

“Homosexuality is a sin and there is no place for such in paradise”. Agree.

At this point Licht, the question that I’ve been asking still remains unanswered. How do you explain the 72 virgins and/or the availability of boys/young men for sex in heaven/paradise?

The Muslim has just been through a purification process because he died with the sin of homosexuality on his soul and now he enters heaven and is offered the chance to have sex with his own gender. Don’t you find this contradictory?

 

[Licht]

There is no “boys/young men for sex in heaven/paradise”.

You say: “is offered the chance to have sex with his own gender”. Please give me some textual source for this please because it seems you are making things up for the sake of an argument!

I repeat myself to make things clear. If homosexual tendencies are a sin, then they are purged away and no such desires will be realised in paradise.

Allah has created everything in pairs (And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction. Qur’an: 51:49 ). Humans have been created in pairs. Adam and Eve, peace be upon them, are our ancestors. Our natural inclination is therefore to desire the opposite sex. Homosexuality (however you may personally see it) is in short a sinful act. It comes from Satan, the open enemy of mankind.

In paradise Allah has created for the believer soulmates (Houris) specifially for every believer his own soulmates. These are a reward for the believer and a source of joy. As Allah is All-Mighty and will give us anything we desire in paradise we will be totally satisfied with our wifes or husbands.

And after we have settled down believing all these gifts cant be topped, He will reveal Himself to the believers. Read my previous post from yesterday which is a description of the spiritual nearness to Allah.

I allign myself to sunni islam. I feel love for the rightly guided caliphs (which puts me away from shia) and i rather stick to Qur’an and Sunnah (which puts me away from sufis), tho i take knowledge (that i acknowledge as true) from all sources i.e. among others western philosophy, sufis, shia, etc.

 

[aicirt]

There is no “boys/young men for sex in heaven/paradise”.

You say: “is offered the chance to have sex with his own gender”. Please give me some textual source for this please because it seems you are making things up for the sake of an argument!

I repeat myself to make things clear. If homosexual tendencies are a sin, then they are purged away and no such desires will be realised in paradise.

Allah has created everything in pairs (And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction. Qur’an: 51:49 ). Humans have been created in pairs. Adam and Eve, peace be upon them, are our ancestors. Our natural inclination is therefore to desire the opposite sex. Homosexuality (however you may personally see it) is in short a sinful act. It comes from Satan, the open enemy of mankind.

In paradise Allah has created for the believer soulmates (Houris) specifially for every believer his own soulmates. These are a reward for the believer and a source of joy. As Allah is All-Mighty and will give us anything we desire in paradise we will be totally satisfied with our wifes or husbands.

And after we have settled down believing all these gifts cant be topped, He will reveal Himself to the believers. Read my previous post from yesterday which is a description of the spiritual nearness to Allah.

I allign myself to sunni islam. I feel love for the rightly guided caliphs (which puts me away from shia) and i rather stick to Qur’an and Sunnah (which puts me away from sufis), tho i take knowledge (that i acknowledge as true) from all sources i.e. among others western philosophy, sufis, shia, etc.

Qur’an 52.24 and 76:19

“Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: If thou seest them, thou shall think of them scattered pearls.”

From what I’ve read, Muslim scholars are emphatic that the pretty virgin boys in paradise are not for women. And we’ve confirmed that in previous posts re. Muslim women in Muslim heaven. Muslim women get to stay with their husbands.

 

[Licht]

I am well aware of these verses. You are reading things superficially and its only because of this that you deduced the notion of homosexual sex happening in paradise. This bears no logic and scriptural evidence.

I will prove this to you simply by refering to the Quran verses:

*Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them. Youths (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded[1]. *(52:24)
*And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls. *(76:19)

From the following verses you receive a vivid picture of these youths of paradise. I highlighted one main points:

I underlined the word “serve”. In every verse that mentioned (including the two verses you pointed out yourself) these youths it is also mentioned their task which is to “serve” the believers.

You may argue that sexual services also are a part of their services. I will adress this point now because i am sure you will not fail to use this as a straw to advance your point.

Read these verse:

(They will be) on Thrones encrusted (with gold and precious stones), Reclining on them, facing each other.Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness), With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains: No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication: And with fruits, any that they may select: And the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire. And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,- Like unto Pearls well-guarded. A Reward for the deeds of their past (life). Not frivolity will they hear therein, nor any taint of ill,- Only the saying, “Peace! Peace”. (56:15-26)

Here, these youths are mentioned again. That they are supposed to serve the believers is again visible from the text. But in these verses there is also the mention of some services. Believers sitting on their thrones, will be given cups to drink, fruits to eat and meat if they so desire.

The crucial point comes now. And they will have their companions (wifes, soulmates, houris, virgins, as you may call them) with them.

I have explained in my previous post, how these wifes will be the natural opposites, soulmates, exclusive made for the believers to fulfill their desires. So, to conclude:

Conclusion: These youths whom you imagine to be “sexual servants” are servants (80.000 servants for each believers i think) created to serve the believers with anything they desire (drink, fruits, meat and anything else). As for being intimate in a sexual sense, this is between the companions that Allah has exclusively and especially made for the believers (for each believer his own soulmate who will only desire and have eyes for his husband). Read my previous post also to understand why there is no place for homosexuality in paradise.

So, mr. aicirt, if things are still contradictory then i advise you to read my posts again and if there are still questions ask them. Im willing to clear up the misconception because it really is unworthy of a believer to imagine homosexual sex in paradise no matter which religion. Homosexuality angers Allah and the severest punishment was given to the people of Lut (Lot), peace be upon him, for their sexual practices. I hope you will give up insisting on paradise being a place where homosexual sex is practiced!

 

[aicirt]

I am well aware of these verses. You are reading things superficially and its only because of this that you deduced the notion of homosexual sex happening in paradise. This bears no logic and scriptural evidence.

I will prove this to you simply by refering to the Quran verses:

Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them. Youths (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded[1]. (52:24)
And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls. (76:19)

From the following verses you receive a vivid picture of these youths of paradise. I highlighted one main points:

I underlined the word “serve”. In every verse that mentioned (including the two verses you pointed out yourself) these youths it is also mentioned their task which is to “serve” the believers.

You may argue that sexual services also are a part of their services. I will adress this point now because i am sure you will not fail to use this as a straw to advance your point.

Read these verse:

(They will be) on Thrones encrusted (with gold and precious stones), Reclining on them, facing each other.Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness), With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains: No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication: And with fruits, any that they may select: And the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire. And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,- Like unto Pearls well-guarded. A Reward for the deeds of their past (life). Not frivolity will they hear therein, nor any taint of ill,- Only the saying, “Peace! Peace”. (56:15-26)

Here, these youths are mentioned again. That they are supposed to serve the believers is again visible from the text. But in these verses there is also the mention of some services. Believers sitting on their thrones, will be given cups to drink, fruits to eat and meat if they so desire.

The crucial point comes now. And they will have their companions (wifes, soulmates, houris, virgins, as you may call them) with them.

I have explained in my previous post, how these wifes will be the natural opposites, soulmates, exclusive made for the believers to fulfill their desires. So, to conclude:

Conclusion: These youths whom you imagine to be “sexual servants” are servants (80.000 servants for each believers i think) created to serve the believers with anything they desire (drink, fruits, meat and anything else). As for being intimate in a sexual sense, this is between the companions that Allah has exclusively and especially made for the believers (for each believer his own soulmate who will only desire and have eyes for his husband). Read my previous post also to understand why there is no place for homosexuality in paradise.

So, mr. aicirt, if things are still contradictory then i advise you to read my posts again and if there are still questions ask them. Im willing to clear up the misconception because it really is unworthy of a believer to imagine homosexual sex in paradise no matter which religion. Homosexuality angers Allah and the severest punishment was given to the people of Lut (Lot), peace be upon him, for their sexual practices. I hope you will give up insisting on paradise being a place where homosexual sex is practiced!

islam-qa.com/en/ref/4994/paradise

This statement was taken from the above source: “We must make a serious point which is that Allah forbids whatever He wills in this world.to its people for He is the Creator and Soverign of these things, so it is not permissable for anyone to object to the rulings of Allah on the basis of his foolish thinking and imperfect understanding. The cecision and teh ruling, before and after (I’m assuming this means death), is only with Allah and there is none who can overturn His ruling.”

This statement is given before proceeding with the reasons as to why a Muslim man may indulge in 72 virgins in the afterlife. Reading the above means to me a Catholic that no discussion is open. What might be a sin here on this earth is not in Muslim heaven.

Licht, in post #228 you state “You (among other people) cannot comprehend how one can indulge in activities in paradise that are sinful on earth”.

Yet, we have just had a conversation where we agreed that one must be pure of sin in order to enter heaven whether it be Muslim or Catholic.

Licht, you might wonder how we can conclude that there is something strange about having boys around waiting on you. First, we think it is very strange to have 72 virgins because, in our mind, this is sinful. Then we read on a description of male “youths handsome as pearls well guarded.” And these are only there to serve men. If the description had been that Muslims (men and women) will have tons of servants, non-Muslims would have thought nothing of it.

There is an implication. IF there wasn’t, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

 

[Licht]

mr. aicirt i believe you are looking for contradictions for the sake of it, but Allah knows your reasons very well and we are all judged according to islamic teachings by our deeds and intentions. All that said i respect you and i hope for you that your intentions are the best.

Ill try to clear things up once again. I would like you to follow me when i go through several points that you made. There are some things that need to be clarified in order to clear the contradictions you see or at least give you an understanding which you at your liberty can dislike, that is up to you.

1. What is God to you? I wish you to ask this question to yourself. I will answer this question from the islamic point of view. Allah is the Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has created us and we are His servants. We or anything else created has no power except what He provides us with. Muslims submit to Him only. We live our life according to what He has sent down to us (Quran). Quran is from Him and it is the criterion of right and wrong.

A sin is what Allah has forbidden us. It is in His power to set rules. If He wills, He can forbid a thing and if He wills He can allow it again (i.e. Allah has forbidden the “Bani Israel” things due to their disobedience and allowed them to the later generations of His servants. I think the Bible also approves to this). It is never a question of what we “personally” dislike or how we would like to have things.

See this quote in the light of my writings: “We must make a serious point which is that Allah forbids whatever He wills in this world.” This quote is totally legitimate from an islamic point of view. The context of this sentence was that the Sheikh explains how some things are forbidden in this world and not in paradise (he gives the example of having intimate relationships outside of wedlock in paradise). It makes sense and it is also my opinion as a believe in the All-Might of Allah, the Creator of everything and someone who acknowledge His authority over changings of the divine Law. No monotheistic believer will in his right mind deny these fundamental principles. I personally do not see why any believer should claim authority in the sphere of devine Law so yes there is “no discussion open”, isnt that all too clear? If Allah forbids a thing, a believers acknowledges it and lives by it whole heartedly. Only a disbeliever will want to question the laws of God. I acknowledge thus this quote: “The cecision and the ruling, before and after, is only with Allah and there is none who can overturn His ruling.” I testify the truth of this sentence.

I quote: “Yet, we have just had a conversation where we agreed that one must be pure of sin in order to enter heaven whether it be Muslim or Catholic.” I see where the misunderstanding me be coming from. Since english is not my native language i tend to make myself not as clear as i would like to. I will modify my statement. What i mean is:

that no believer will enter paradise while he has sinful deeds that he has not atone for. It was my mistake actually, i acknowledge it. In short Muslims do not belive in original sin. Sins are not innate in human nature but we are ‘sinners’ by our deeds only. We have to atone and ask for forgiveness for these sins in order to enter paradise. Sometimes as explained one will have to enter hellfire to atone those sins. Its a scary thought.

I quote: “And these are only there to serve men”. This is plain wrong. The Surah (Chapter) 56 of Quran (the one i quoted in my previous post) talks about the group of believers that will "**These **will be those Nearest to God: In Gardens of Bliss:(Quran 56:11-12). And then it goes on explaining how “They” sit in thrones, served by those youth servants.

Conclusion: There is no implication that this group consists only of men and that those servants are only for the men. It is further illogical since the verse talks of them being nearest to Allah and throughout history there were great, pious believing women, one prime example being Mary, peace be upon her. She truely deserves the highest spot in paradise and will be near to Allah.

With this, i hope i could further correct your erroneous views on paradise in islam. As far ive shown, that there is

1. a spiritual and a physical side of paradise in Islam
2. homosexuality is not part of paradise in islam because Allah has specially made companions exclusively for each believer
3. the youth are servants but not “sex toys”
4. men and women (Quran rather speaks of “believers”) will be fully satisfied with their reward in paradise and they will be then be able to see Allah directly.

peace

 

[Licht]

I think that the nature of human beings will be intact in paradise. That is why we will find pleasure in eating, drinking and clothing us in fine garment. And we will find pleasure in intimacy men with women and women with men. And many things are inspired by Satan, homosexuality, jelousy, arrogance, hate, etc.

Look, ill try to make it clear to you. You are born into this life and you have no control of your life for a long time until you get to stand up on your own independantly from your parents.

Same is with paradise. You will enter paradise and you will live into it and you will be ruled by its laws. You will be given wine (without its side effects) and soulmates and you wont feel any guilt because guilt comes from sinning which you wont be doing. You will live in a state of peace and totally satisfied from a scriptural view as shown in my previous posts, both men and woman.

Many things that seem inconsistent are because of lack of insight or satans whispering. Satan will vanish into hell and paradise will be reality (for us all as God wills). The Good will remain.

 

[aicirt]

mr. aicirt i believe you are looking for contradictions for the sake of it, but Allah knows your reasons very well and we are all judged according to islamic teachings by our deeds and intentions. All that said i respect you and i hope for you that your intentions are the best.

Ill try to clear things up once again. I would like you to follow me when i go through several points that you made. There are some things that need to be clarified in order to clear the contradictions you see or at least give you an understanding which you at your liberty can dislike, that is up to you.

1. What is God to you? I wish you to ask this question to yourself. I will answer this question from the islamic point of view. Allah is the Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has created us and we are His servants. We or anything else created has no power except what He provides us with. Muslims submit to Him only. We live our life according to what He has sent down to us (Quran). Quran is from Him and it is the criterion of right and wrong.

A sin is what Allah has forbidden us. It is in His power to set rules. If He wills, He can forbid a thing and if He wills He can allow it again (i.e. Allah has forbidden the “Bani Israel” things due to their disobedience and allowed them to the later generations of His servants. I think the Bible also approves to this). It is never a question of what we “personally” dislike or how we would like to have things.

See this quote in the light of my writings: “We must make a serious point which is that Allah forbids whatever He wills in this world.” This quote is totally legitimate from an islamic point of view. The context of this sentence was that the Sheikh explains how some things are forbidden in this world and not in paradise (he gives the example of having intimate relationships outside of wedlock in paradise). It makes sense and it is also my opinion as a believe in the All-Might of Allah, the Creator of everything and someone who acknowledge His authority over changings of the divine Law. No monotheistic believer will in his right mind deny these fundamental principles. I personally do not see why any believer should claim authority in the sphere of devine Law so yes there is “no discussion open”, isnt that all too clear? If Allah forbids a thing, a believers acknowledges it and lives by it whole heartedly. Only a disbeliever will want to question the laws of God. I acknowledge thus this quote: “The cecision and the ruling, before and after, is only with Allah and there is none who can overturn His ruling.” I testify the truth of this sentence.

I quote: “Yet, we have just had a conversation where we agreed that one must be pure of sin in order to enter heaven whether it be Muslim or Catholic.” I see where the misunderstanding me be coming from. Since english is not my native language i tend to make myself not as clear as i would like to. I will modify my statement. What i mean is:

that no believer will enter paradise while he has sinful deeds that he has not atone for. It was my mistake actually, i acknowledge it. In short Muslims do not belive in original sin. Sins are not innate in human nature but we are ‘sinners’ by our deeds only. We have to atone and ask for forgiveness for these sins in order to enter paradise. Sometimes as explained one will have to enter hellfire to atone those sins. Its a scary thought.

I quote: “And these are only there to serve men”. This is plain wrong. The Surah (Chapter) 56 of Quran (the one i quoted in my previous post) talks about the group of believers that will "***These ***will be those Nearest to God: In Gardens of BlissQuran 56:11-12). And then it goes on explaining how “They” sit in thrones, served by those youth servants.

Conclusion: There is no implication that this group consists only of men and that those servants are only for the men. It is further illogical since the verse talks of them being nearest to Allah and throughout history there were great, pious believing women, one prime example being Mary, peace be upon her. She truely deserves the highest spot in paradise and will be near to Allah.

With this, i hope i could further correct your erroneous views on paradise in islam. As far ive shown, that there is

1. a spiritual and a physical side of paradise in Islam
2. homosexuality is not part of paradise in islam because Allah has specially made companions exclusively for each believer
3. the youth are servants but not “sex toys”
4. men and women (Quran rather speaks of “believers”) will be fully satisfied with their reward in paradise and they will be then be able to see Allah directly.

peace

No, Licht, I’m not looking for contradictions just for the sake of it or to cause an argument. The contradictions are there in Islam and this is because, as you have pointed out, Allah can/may change His mind if and when He wants to.

Although our God of the Bible is omnipotent, He will not make good evil and evil good in this world nor in the next. There is no sex for Catholics in heaven. How can this be? Because Jesus Christ said so.

We will not have marriage in heaven. We will know our spouses but sexual relations are not for that world. We will be like angels. We will be pure spiritual beings according to Matthew 22:29-30. We will exist in a state of joy, happy to be in His presence, free from sin, from sickness, from want, from anger and all other vices known on earth.

Women too will be like angels. They will not be bound to any earthly husband.

I believe I’m correct that you see Jesus Christ as a prophet. Is there anything He said that you believe? You must hold Him in some regard. Obviously, you hold His Mother in high regard. Do you read the Bible?

 

[Licht]

Aicirt you said: “Although our God of the Bible is omnipotent, He will not make good evil and evil good in this world nor in the next.”

How do you know? As you say God is Omnipotent and so He has the means to rule an act as sin or not. Scriptural evidence to your claim would be nice but since that is not really topic i wont ask you to post it. You may do so if you want tho.

I do not see any contradiction in Islam. Its just so that you are looking things from a christian perspective (i.e. the part i quoted above in this post about the God of the Bible) and so some facettes of Islamic teachings do not make sense in that context. I cleared these points with scriptural evidence. If you have more questions or something remains unclear let me know.

Its interesting that you say you will become like angels in the ‘christian’ paradise. Islam holds a different view. Muslims believe that Angels and humans are of different nature. And as i explained earlier, the nature of a being will not be changed. Angels remain created from light, human remain created from earth and jinns remain created from smokeless fire. Our creation is fundamentally ingrained into us and makes us act in a certain way (i.e. we cannot fly but Angels have wings and can do so, etc.) Our nature gives us restrictions besides others that Allah has commanded us to abide by (i.e. Angels cannot go contrary Allahs command (=cannot sin). Humans can sin, etc.) So, in short, muslims do not believe we will become angels. We rather believe that humans are able to raise their status by doing good deeds, either to the level or higher of an angel or to the level of or lower of an animal. This range of being better than an angel or lower than an animal is because we have been given free will while angels and animals cannot change their status with which they were created. Humans have a soul but that is - im quite sure of - not to be mistaken with the nature of an angel. Humans will have their nature intact in paradise and they will be given to eat, to drink and companions to live by, because we are communal and not solitary beings. However, i dont want you to understand me wrong, humans were created for paradise and not for earth. Our natural home is paradise while hell is the most inappropriate place for humans to be. Earth and our being here is a phase of test in which our faith and sincerity is challenged in order to sort out the two groups: the believers and the disbelievers.

Another point that i wanted to adress is: *"Give the good news to those who believe and do right actions, that they will have Gardens with rivers flowing under them. When they are given fruit there as provision, they will say: “This is what we were given before.” But they were only given a simulation of it. They will have there spouses of perfect purity, and will remain there timelessly, forever. *(Quran 2:25)

The point that i first adressed in this thread when i asked for the concrete nature of the life on earth and the afterlife. This verse above describes that fruits will be brought to the dwellers of paradise and they will say that this is something familiar. We ate this on earth already. But Allah lets us know that what we ate on earth was just a similitude of what is on paradise (or vice versa, im not sure). This verse makes it clear that the pleasures of paradise are distinct in nature so im reluctant to talk about paradise of being a place of physical pleasures the like of what we have on earth. This verse disapproves such a view clearly.

To be balanced and sincere, i will also give another interpretation of of “This is what we were given before.” This can also mean, that the believers were given the same thing to eat before and they ask why they get the same thing to eat. They will eat and see that the taste is similar but better than before.

The reason is that paradise is a place where every day is better than the other. Imagine a geometric progressing line. Thats the level of pleasure and its increase. While in hell the line is regressing. Hell fire gets worse every day. Why is that so? The sheikh who explained this said, that 1. this demonstrates Allahs Omnipotence, 2. so that people will never get accustomed to the pleasures or pains. Every day it gets better, every day the fire gets worse. I want you to contast this with our earthly life. Here things get fade after a short time. Pleasures decline, pain as well. We get used to things, get bored. This is because Allah has created this world so, its limited in its core and we literally “taste nor not-taste” its limitations every day, and this constitute one of the myrades of signs that allude to Allah, our Creator. But things are different in an eternal universe. Its laws are different.

I personally consider both interpretations to hold truth. Nothing indicates that one cannot interprete these verses both ways.

peace

 

[Licht]

Quote: “Essentially then you believe in a God who sets no constant standard of morality but rather one that can be changed at **HIS **will?”

That addition is crucial. Allah/God is the Absolute. The Absolute is not some mindless, static power, like nature or some cosmic energy. The verse of the throne (Ayat al Kursi) from Quran describes Allah’s own view best:

God! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory). (Quran 2:255)

I agree, holding anything else than God as the Absolute would be “relative and ultimately meaningless”. However, He constrains Himself by promises to mankind such as:

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, "When Allah completed the creation, He wrote in His Book which is with Him on His Throne, “My Mercy overpowers My Anger.” This is an example of Allah’s selfrestraint over His creation.

peace

 

[aicirt]

Aicirt you said: “Although our God of the Bible is omnipotent, He will not make good evil and evil good in this world nor in the next.”

How do you know?

Its interesting that you say you will become like angels in the ‘christian’ paradise. So, in short, muslims do not believe we will become angels. We rather believe that humans are able to raise their status by doing good deeds, either to the level or higher of an angel or to the level of or lower of an animal. This range of being better than an angel or lower than an animal is because we have been given free will while angels and animals cannot change their status with which they were created. Humans have a soul but that is - im quite sure of - not to be mistaken with the nature of an angel. Humans will have their nature intact in paradise and they will be given to eat, to drink and companions to live by, because we are communal and not solitary beings. However, i dont want you to understand me wrong, humans were created for paradise and not for earth. Our natural home is paradise while hell is the most inappropriate place for humans to be. Earth and our being here is a phase of test in which our faith and sincerity is challenged in order to sort out the two groups: the believers and the disbelievers.

Another point that i wanted to adress is: "Give the good news to those who believe and do right actions, that they will have Gardens with rivers flowing under them. When they are given fruit there as provision, they will say: "This is what we were given before." But they were only given a simulation of it. They will have there spouses of perfect purity, and will remain there timelessly, forever. (Quran 2:25)

The point that i first adressed in this thread when i asked for the concrete nature of the life on earth and the afterlife. This verse above describes that fruits will be brought to the dwellers of paradise and they will say that this is something familiar. We ate this on earth already. But Allah lets us know that what we ate on earth was just a similitude of what is on paradise (or vice versa, im not sure). This verse makes it clear that the pleasures of paradise are distinct in nature so im reluctant to talk about paradise of being a place of physical pleasures the like of what we have on earth. This verse disapproves such a view clearly.

To be balanced and sincere, i will also give another interpretation of of “This is what we were given before.” This can also mean, that the believers were given the same thing to eat before and they ask why they get the same thing to eat. They will eat and see that the taste is similar but better than before.

How do I know God doesn’t make good evil nor evil good? Because we are taught in our cathechism, as children, that God is all Loving and all Good. There is no room for evil. This would destroy the very nature of God. It cannot be true.

God is a Loving Father. Loving Fathers don’t trick their children. They don’t teach their children not to sin and then tell them later to go ahead and sin.

I may have said this before but I’ll repeat it to make a point. I’m sure you know the story of Abraham being asked by God to sacrifice his son. Having learned about the very nature of God probably a year before, my class of 8 yr. olds, listened to the story of poor Abraham taking his only and beloved son to the mountain,and placing him on the table to be sacrificed. The whole time I, and many of my classmates, are thinking, “What kind of God is this that would ask someone to kill his own child?” To this day, I remember that feeling. As young as we were, we knew and we could feel in ourselves, that this was not right. This went totally against what we were taught that God was a Good and Loving Father.

Of course, you and I know that God stopped him. God was testing Abraham. No killing occured. God’s nature was the nature of Love then and now. He loves us so much, He sent His own Son to be sacrificed rather than have Abraham sacrifice his child.

Angels: I said “like” angels. We will not become angels. We will be in our spirit because it is our soul that survives after death to someday be united with our body.

Angels cannot force anything on a human. Humans have free will. Angels cannot demand anything from us through force, threats, false promises, or threats of bodily harm. Satan tried to do that with Jesus offering everything Jesus saw if he would obey Satan. Real angels, like Raphael, Gabriel, Michael, etc. ask. They are messengers from God.

Angels, we believe, serve God and serve man. We are above angels. God asked him to bow down before man and that Lucifer would not do. Because of his disobedience, Lucifer and his followers were thrown into the pit also known as hell.

Paradise/heaven…beyond our earthly comprehension to describe. Totally beautiful place with colors we haven’t seen on earth and music too wonderful. What ever is there will be better than here. But for Catholics, the primary desire is to see God.

Spirits…yes we are spirits having an earthly experience through which, depending on how we serve God here, we will enter into His Presence for eternity.

Hell…where those go who cannot ask for God’s Mercy. We condemn ourselves. God is All Merciful, All Forgiving, and All Just. Not believing in God’s Mercy would mean not believing in God. The person, like Lucifer, refuses to see Something Greater than himself.

 

[Licht]

In Islam everything comes from Allah.

Evil - I termed “being a sinner” in my previous post - is a consequence, a quality of disobedience of Allah’s Commands. Whereas Good i s a consequence, a quality of being obedience to Allah.

Prime example is Satan. According to Quran, it was not Satans innate “evilness” that doomed him, it was his disobedience comming from an arrogant view of superiority towards humans. He simply disobedied Allah who commanded the dwellers of the heaven to bow down to Adam, peace be upon him.

Evil origins from going against Allahs Commands. It has its origin in Allah also by the fact that he allows disobedience in first hand.

I feel like Christianity sees Evil and Good as self-subsisting categories that are not in control of Gods Hands.

(name removed by moderator), i always understood that Christians and Muslims have a different view of God but the subtle, fundamental difference was for me, when Pope Benedict XVI held his Regensburger Speech. The Christian God of logic vs the unbound God of Islam

 

[aicirt]

In Islam everything comes from Allah.

Evil - I termed “being a sinner” in my previous post - is a consequence, a quality of disobedience of Allah’s Commands. Whereas Good i s a consequence, a quality of being obedience to Allah.

Prime example is Satan. According to Quran, it was not Satans innate “evilness” that doomed him, it was his disobedience comming from an arrogant view of superiority towards humans. He simply disobedied Allah who commanded the dwellers of the heaven to bow down to Adam, peace be upon him.

Evil origins from going against Allahs Commands. It has its origin in Allah also by the fact that he allows disobedience in first hand.

I feel like Christianity sees Evil and Good as self-subsisting categories that are not in control of Gods Hands.

(name removed by moderator), i always understood that Christians and Muslims have a different view of God but the subtle, fundamental difference was for me, when Pope Benedict XVI held his Regensburger Speech. The Christian God of logic vs the unbound God of Islam

Yes, I too agree with the Pope. There is a difference if one expects to apply logic to Muslim beliefs.

Satan is a creation of God. He has been given reign to tempt man into sin and the lose of his soul resulting in everlasting damantion. It is Satan who is the trickster, manipulator, and liar.

How does a Muslim discern if he’s being tempted by Satan or not?

 

[Justin1982]

I feel like Christianity sees Evil and Good as self-subsisting categories that are not in control of Gods Hands.

It is not that God cannot control evil, it is that God granted us free will and promised to never over step that free will. If you are tempted by the devil I feel that God can and will try to bring you back to the fold but it is up to each individual to follow Jesus to Heaven or not and suffer the consequences of those actions.

 

[Licht]

Justin I can assure you - and you can double check yourself - that your description fits the islamic view of God. Either me or the Pope are wrong because with my statement im contradicting the Pope.

Aicirt: May i ask for a further explanation for your statement: “There is a difference if one expects to apply logic to Muslim beliefs.”?

“How does a Muslim discern if he’s being tempted by Satan or not?” There are ways.

 

[Justin1982]

Justin I can assure you - and you can double check yourself - that your description fits the islamic view of God. Either me or the Pope are wrong because with my statement im contradicting the Pope.

I read those statements from the Pope and I agree with his views, nowhere does he state that God controls or doesn’t control evil. He (God) established what is good and evil, it is still the understanding that you and I have free will. God loves, that’s what he does, if you don’t fit his standard you are banished to hell. Christianity does not force people to believe in God. On the other hand Islam forces beliefs on the “non-believer”, a loving God does not force anything upon His people and especially not through violence. Just anger is accepted in Christianity though is not justified by a violent attack on another faith because they don’t believe in that particular faith.

 

[aicirt]

Justin I can assure you - and you can double check yourself - that your description fits the islamic view of God. Either me or the Pope are wrong because with my statement im contradicting the Pope.

Aicirt: May i ask for a further explanation for your statement: “There is a difference if one expects to apply logic to Muslim beliefs.”?

“How does a Muslim discern if he’s being tempted by Satan or not?” There are ways.

I agree with the Pope and I thought you agreed with him too. Your God is not bound by logic. Our God, who created logic as He created all things, is bound. It gets back to good and evil. Evil is Satan, Good is God. There is absolutely no way you’ll find any good in Satan/evil. And there is no way you can find any evil in the absolute good which is God. From what I’ve read, Muslims believe He is not tethered by our logic.

So, how does a Muslim discern if he’s being tempted by Satan? And how would a Muslim determine if he is being told to do something which was previously seen as a sin but for some reason Allah now doesn’t see it as a sin?

 

[Licht]

Aicirt, I am having a hard time understanding the difference between Christian God’s “logic” and Allah’s “self-restraint”. In fact there is no difference.

“So, how does a Muslim discern if he’s being tempted by Satan?” I dont see any relation to the discussion. I have to ask for the reason for your asking.

“And how would a Muslim determine if he is being told to do something which was previously seen as a sin but for some reason Allah now doesn’t see it as a sin?” Quran makes it clear that Allah would not punish a people without sending a warner. “[We sent all these] apostles as heralds of glad tidings and as warners, so that men might have no excuse before God after [the coming of] these apostles: and God is indeed almighty, wise.*” (Quran 4:165). A warner is a holy messenger who would deliver the commandments of Allah to the people, informing them of the right and wrongs (sins).

 

[seraphime2008]

How’s that a heaven of being in a perpetual happiness of satisfying fleshy desires can be not boring at some point? To accept a concept of heaven of never ending fleshy satisfaction would be to make a heaven of robots, either for the human soul or for the creatures made to serve them…I remember there are many cases where many people of affluent feel so much bored, even though they can satisfy whatever fleshy imagination they dream of : delicious food any time, travel, sex, houses in different continents etc you name it, it just makes them feel to have enough and finally kill themselves. The rabbits of the animal kingdom seem to have already enjoyed such things in their own version of heaven on earth!

 

[aicirt]

Aicirt, I am having a hard time understanding the difference between Christian God’s “logic” and Allah’s “self-restraint”. In fact there is no difference.

“So, how does a Muslim discern if he’s being tempted by Satan?” I dont see any relation to the discussion. I have to ask for the reason for your asking.

“And how would a Muslim determine if he is being told to do something which was previously seen as a sin but for some reason Allah now doesn’t see it as a sin?” Quran makes it clear that Allah would not punish a people without sending a warner. “[We sent all these] apostles as heralds of glad tidings and as warners, so that men might have no excuse before God after [the coming of] these apostles: and God is indeed almighty, wise.*” (Quran 4:165). A warner is a holy messenger who would deliver the commandments of Allah to the people, informing them of the right and wrongs (sins).

Maybe I’ve misunderstood. What I understood was that Allah can, because he is omnipotent, cause something to be sinful one time and not sinful another time. He is not tethered to any laws. Correct?