Islam and corruption in the bible

[planten]

The Crucifixion is not what this thread is about, however corruption in the bible is on topic. You Planten, in a defense of the Koran said that God would never allow his holy books to become corrupted, yet you decry the NT account of the crucifixion as corrupt. Why the double standards? What proof do you have that the Koran is correct and the Bible is wrong (since they are both Holy Books).

Nine_Two, you had asked me this question before. The reply is rather difficult for you to accept. However, I can just tell what the Muslims believe. You may not like it. But it is the proper reply (reason) for your question.

Please note that God (Allah) had been sending prophets to mankind for a very long time. The purpose was to teach mankind to live an orderly life and in that way, to become closer to God i.e. the Creator.

Prophets (messengers) came to every nation with guidance from God for their people. Such were Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Issac, Jacob and his children, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, and many more amongst the Jews. The last of them was Jesus.

Humanity at time was not well advanced to understand the finer things of life code. Different nations were given different code of law. But that was all time specific. Those laws were very good for that time. They were not good for ever. i.e. because mankind was progressing mentally and physically through evolution.

It is proved by the bad behaviour of Jews and their rebellious nature as described in the bibleOT that they revolted against God many times. It is also described in the bible about Lot and his bad people. Lot tried to do all good for them.But they did not listen to Lot. In the end they were destroyed.

Jesus was also given guidance. He preached it very well. Some accepted him but many rejected too. In the end, his enemies got Jesus arrested by the support of the Roman government. Jesus was given Bible. He preache dit very well but for a short time (3 years) only.

His disciples supported Jesus. They wrote down what Jesus did and say. It is natural that people forget and distort the message. Distortion is of two kinds: 1. Distorting the words of the message. 2. Distorting the meaning of the message.

In christianisty, afte rJesus left, the field was open for the enemies to corrupt the message. Yet many kept up their effort to save the message of Jesus.

That is what has happened to the messge of Jesus.

With Quran it is different. God sent revelation and undertook to preserve the message given to Muhammad. For that Allah arranged special methods. All revelation was comiited to writing and memorised. It was recited openly in five daily prayers.

While earlier messages ahd to be forgotten because they were time specific and they were only for a certain people (nation), the Quran was the last message to whole mankind. It had to be protected because no more book form message was to come for ever. The message given to Muhammad was not time specific. It was for all mankind. It is written in the Quran. I am not saying it from myself.

There has been no corruption of the words of Quran at all. It is as it was revealed 1400 years ago. But the meaning may have been corrupted. But Allah had made another arrangemnet to protect the real meaning too. The Prophet said " Allah will keep on raising such (saintly) persons in my Ummah at the turn of every century who will revive (reform) the religion (Islam) for the nation."

So if there is any corruption in the interpretation or translation of any verse of the Quran, the learned scholars have been appearing amongst Muslims who put the wheel on the right track.

 

[Nine_Two]

Ok, so more double standards, Koran can not be corrupt because it is book of God, but other Holy books can be. Got it.
You say the Koran can not be corrupted because it is the final message, but the Muslim claim is the Koran was only sent because the revelations which came before became corrupted.

Since you lack evidence, you are unable to answer the opening question, and therefore you really shouldn’t be responding to this thread.

 

[Mosacked]

A question for the Muslim posters, something I’ve never been able to understand is what evidence does Islam have that the bible has been corrupted?

I know there is the argument about redactions, but given the fact that there are two common versions (LXX and MT), and that both are seperated by redactions, yet have the exact same theology, would indicate that the redactions changed nothing.
If Satan conspired to corrupt the bible through this means then, he was clearly ineffective.

So what actual proof is there of this corruption? Please leave the hyperbole out of answers, I’m just looking for proof.

And if the Bible is not accused for corruption, how can their religion stand amongst her people?

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com

.

 

[Wildkit]

And if the Bible is not accused for corruption, how can their religion stand amongst her people?

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com

.

Great,…but what is this supposed to mean?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

And if the Bible is not accused for corruption, how can their religion stand amongst her people?

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com

.

With all due respect, do you have to keep posting that blog link? Can’t you put it in your signature, like I did with mine?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

On a side note…

Posted by hamba2han
And even renown Christian scholars have acknowledged that there have been numerous alterations in Christian scriptures.

St. Augustine himself, a man acknowledged and looked up to by both Protestants and Catholics alike, professed that there were secret doctrines in the Christian religion and that:

“…there were many things true in the Christian religion which it was not convenient for the vulgar [common people] to know, and that some things were false, but convenient for the vulgar to believe in them.”

This quote is taken TOTALLY out of *context, which, I am not surprised by. To ASSUME that St. Augustine was referring to ‘Sacred Scripture’ *is absurd, which is precisely what you are tying to infer here, a silly tactic. St. Augustine would never disparage or contradict *‘Sacred Scripture’ *as being anything other than the total word of God. His reference to the *‘many things’ *refers to the various sects and their corrupting of Christian traditions which was rampant during his lifetime… something a Muslim of today can surely appreciate. Please don’t quote any saints as proof text, as if using quotes by them somehow strengthens your position. It doesn’t.

A few months ago I was debating a Muslim who would continually quote patristics that supposedly either gave credence to the Gnostic gospels, or denied the authenticity of the true Gospels. These quotes were continually taken out of context, or misrepresented the position of the men they were citing. I wonder if this person took the quotes from this site?

I actually asked him plainly if he was getting these quotes from a second-hand source, but he wouldn’t answer. Unfortunately, he was one of those “hit and run” posters who would post in the thread, get refuted, leave for a week, post in the thread, get refuted, leave for a week, post in the thread, etc

 

[LtTony]

18. The Jews and Christians say: We are sons of Allah and His loved ones. Say; Why then does He punish you for your sins?
What does that (the part I underlined) mean exactly?

Tony, it is simple. The Jews and the christians used to say that they were the children of God. Quran says,okay, accepted. But then why God (Allah) punsihes you, if you are the sons of God?? Nobody punishes his beloved sons. Can you understand that please. If Jews and the christians are the beloved sons of God then they should not suffer, should not be punished

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Simple planten. Children can be punished. Nowhere does God not say He won’t punish his chilren, beloved or otherwise. I think you have really misunderstood whatever you read to lead you to this conclusion.
Many Jews and christians enjoy the fruits of their faiths. Many others are possibly punished, or at least not as happy as they could be, but I believe the punishment is reserved for the afterlife. Punishment is not here, according to christian (NT) scripture.

 

[Mosacked]

18. The Jews and Christians say: We are sons of Allah and His loved ones. Say; Why then does He punish you for your sins?
What does that (the part I underlined) mean exactly?

Tony, it is simple. The Jews and the christians used to say that they were the children of God. Quran says,okay, accepted. But then why God (Allah) punsihes you, if you are the sons of God?? Nobody punishes his beloved sons. Can you understand that please. If Jews and the christians are the beloved sons of God then they should not suffer, should not be punished

---------------------------------------

Simple planten. Children can be punished. Nowhere does God not say He won’t punish his chilren, beloved or otherwise. I think you have really misunderstood whatever you read to lead you to this conclusion.
Many Jews and christians enjoy the fruits of their faiths. Many others are possibly punished, or at least not as happy as they could be, but I believe the punishment is reserved for the afterlife. Punishment is not here, according to christian (NT) scripture.

I don’t know where you got that quote from, but it is obvious that more muslims die in natural disasters than do non-muslims, and muslims are generally far worse off socially and economically. So, if muslims say that those who do not belong to God are punished, are they not referring to themselves?

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com
.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I don’t know where you got that quote from, but it is obvious that more muslims die in natural disasters than do non-muslims, and muslims are generally far worse off socially and economically. So, if muslims say that those who do not belong to God are punished, are they not referring to themselves?

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com
.

With all due respect, do you have to keep posting that blog link? Can’t you put it in your signature, like I did with mine?

 

[Mosacked]

Great,…but what is this supposed to mean?

If the Bible is not accused as corrupted, how are muslims going to accept Biblical teachings telling them that God had a Son (Jesus), that God chose Isaac and not Ishmael, that God’s last prophet was John the Baptist etc etc.

Islam establishes itself on the history of the powerful jewish God, claiming His miracles as theirs, establishes itself on the great miracles performed by Jesus, and then turns around to falsely accuse the religion of Judaism & Christianity of corruption.

Had the 'connection not been made, and really insisted upon, then Islam’s deity - aka allah would have NO HISTORY. And without a connection to these great faiths, it would be glaringly obvious that islam’s ‘deity’ is only a stone idol, even to many of its believers. If these faith’s scripture are not denounced as corrupted (and they cannot aligned with the islamic quran due to their very conflicting teachings), islam will collapse.

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com

.

 

[Nine_Two]

I don’t know where you got that quote from, but it is obvious that more muslims die in natural disasters than do non-muslims, and muslims are generally far worse off socially and economically. So, if muslims say that those who do not belong to God are punished, are they not referring to themselves?

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com
.

Repackaging the same bad argument made by a Muslim and throwing it back at them doesn’t make it a good argument.
This thread isn’t for comparing the number of people of every religion who are killed in natural disasters, its for looking for Muslim proof that scripture is corrupt, or if they don’t believe it to be corrupt, then getting them to explain the discrpencies. Your post did neither.

 

[Mosacked]

Repackaging the same bad argument made by a Muslim and throwing it back at them doesn’t make it a good argument.
This thread isn’t for comparing the number of people of every religion who are killed in natural disasters, its for looking for Muslim proof that scripture is corrupt, or if they don’t believe it to be corrupt, then getting them to explain the discrpencies. Your post did neither.

What is bad to you may be good to others. Throwing pearls to swines get stampeded on. And I"m fine with your views, even though you like to step on it.

 

[Nine_Two]

What is bad to you may be good to others. Throwing pearls to swines get stampeded on. And I"m fine with your views, even though you like to step on it.

A fundamentalist and a moral relativist? That’s a new one.

Now lets not derail this thread.

 

[Mosacked]

If the Bible is not accused as corrupted, how are muslims going to accept Biblical teachings telling them that God had a Son (Jesus), that God chose Isaac and not Ishmael, that God’s last prophet was John the Baptist etc etc.

Islam establishes itself on the history of the powerful jewish God, claiming His miracles as theirs, establishes itself on the great miracles performed by Jesus, and then turns around to falsely accuse the religion of Judaism & Christianity of corruption.

Had the 'connection not been made, and really insisted upon, then Islam’s deity - aka allah would have NO HISTORY. And without a connection to these great faiths, it would be glaringly obvious that islam’s ‘deity’ is only a stone idol, even to many of its believers. If these faith’s scripture are not denounced as corrupted (and they cannot be aligned with the islamic quran due to their very conflicting teachings), islam will collapse.

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com

.

 

[hamba2han]

Why do Christians and Jews believe that their Bible is NOT corrupted?

As far as I am aware, there is nothing in the Bible which states that the Lord will protect and preserve their scriptures from corruption.

On the contrary, I can post (and in fact have indeed posted in previous threads) passages from the Bible itself which states in no uncertain terms that the scriptures given to the Jews would become corrupted through the course of time.

Since the Lord NEVER promised to guard the earlier scriptures given to the Jews and Christians from corruption, then it is just really naive for them to believe that their scriptures have remained uncorrupted throughout the period of so many centuries.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Why do Christians and Jews believe that their Bible is NOT corrupted?

As far as I am aware, there is nothing in the Bible which states that the Lord will protect and preserve their scriptures from corruption.

The Lord doesn’t have to - Christians and Jews have enough faith to know that He would. We don’t need God to make promises.

In any case, it’s illogical and incomprehensible to think that simply because a text says, “This will never become corrupt,” that means that it won’t. In fact, it’s a fallacious argument that leads to circular thinking.

Person A: “My holy text isn’t corrupt!”
Person B: “Why do you say that?”
Person A: “Because my holy text says it won’t become corrupt!”

This is virtually on par with someone arguing, “I’m right because I say I am.” Again, illogical thinking.

On the contrary, I can post (and in fact have indeed posted in previous threads) passages from the Bible itself which states in no uncertain terms that the scriptures given to the Jews would become corrupted through the course of time.

I’ve had those passages used against me, and they’re all easily refutable when one looks at the context. Most of them talk about Jewish society become corrupted, but it never mentions nor even hints at scripture. As I said earlier in this thread, when the apostles went out among the Jews, they never once accused them of corrupting scripture. It wasn’t until the time of Mohammad that anyone accused the Jewish or Christian scriptures of being so tarnished - and again, that was because when Mohammad was really compared to the Jewish and Christian scriptures, his entire theology and validity fell apart.

The constant problem with Muslim argumentation that previous revelations became corrupt is that they essentially turn God into a victim of fatalism, and inadvertently make Islam an open theist religion. In other words, God has to try three times before a revelation sticks, because He failed to preserve the first two. Why? Apparently, man has the power to overcome God, who is apparently too weak to preserve anything.

 

[Nine_Two]

Why do Christians and Jews believe that their Bible is NOT corrupted?

As far as I am aware, there is nothing in the Bible which states that the Lord will protect and preserve their scriptures from corruption.

On the contrary, I can post (and in fact have indeed posted in previous threads) passages from the Bible itself which states in no uncertain terms that the scriptures given to the Jews would become corrupted through the course of time.

Since the Lord NEVER promised to guard the earlier scriptures given to the Jews and Christians from corruption, then it is just really naive for them to believe that their scriptures have remained uncorrupted throughout the period of so many centuries.

We don’t believe they are corrupted because of the ancient manuscripts that we do have.

Would you care to post some of those scriptures?

 

[dzheremi]

Why do Christians and Jews believe that their Bible is NOT corrupted?

As far as I am aware, there is nothing in the Bible which states that the Lord will protect and preserve their scriptures from corruption.

Your ignorance is astounding, Hamba2han. You clearly have never read the Bible but to trash it, just like the vast majority of Muslims.

1 Peter 23-25:

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. For,
“All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of the Lord stands forever.” And this is the word that was preached to you.

The portion in quotes is a direct quote of Isaiah 40:7-8. The take-away here is this:

“The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever.”

Near as I can tell, forever means exactly that. There is also Isaiah 59:21, wherein it is written:

“As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” says the LORD: “My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring’s offspring,” says the LORD, “from now and forever.”

Again, the word the LORD uses is forever - NOT “until Muhammad shows up to claim otherwise”, not (because this is from the Old Testament) until the incarnation (this is why Christians do make claims that the previous scripture has been corrupted like Muslims do), not ever. The word of God will stand forever and ever and ever.

You don’t like it, take it up with God. I guarantee you’ll lose.

 

[planten]

Your ignorance is astounding, Hamba2han. You clearly have never read the Bible but to trash it, just like the vast majority of Muslims.

1 Peter 23-25:

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. For,
“All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of the Lord stands forever.” And this is the word that was preached to you.

The portion in quotes is a direct quote of Isaiah 40:7-8. The take-away here is this:

“The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever.”

That is good dzhereme. You have given some quotation. B W has lost argument against hamba by taking shelter under circular logic. BW does not realise that the Quran at least says “We have revealed the reminder (Quran) and we are its protectors.” It means that Allah has revealed the Quran and He will guard it against corruption.

But the BW bible does not even claim a similar word. So, we say that since God did not promise to guard the words of the bible so He did not cause things to happen in the safety of bible.

But you dzhereme have given somethings from Isaiah. That is OT and it may be about the OT only. It does not apply to your bibleNT. The words are good, anyhow.

Please remember,the matter is not only about.safety of the words of Quran. It has to be seen in a very wide range of activity. Did Muhammad know that his religion will spread all over the world?? If he knew then please tell me “How did he know?” Because that is what has happened. You sometime ask for miracles. I tell you that the spread of Islam is also written in the Quran, long before it happened. And that is a miracle.

Now come to the next point. As Muhammad got the words of Wahi (revelation), he informed his friends that Allah had sent some words to him. He memorised those words and got them committed to writing by the scribes. In that way, every word was written down.

It was also memorised. The words of Quran were recited openly in the five daily prayers five times a day. Muhammad had the guidance. He used to pray in a certain direction and that is what he told all his followers. In the early 14 years, he used to pray to Allah facing Jerusalem, because the spiritual leadership of all mankind was with the Jews. Later when Allah ordered Muhammad to face the Ka’abah at Makkah for all prayers, he followed that order. He also told all Muslims to face the Ka’abah only. All Muslims should face Ka’abah only for their prayer to Allah.

Why was that?? Did he know that his religion will spread all over the world and prayer houses (Mosques) will be build every where and they will need a direction. How did he know that?? If he had not guided us under divine command, there would be chaos in all places. People could fight trying to have the nearby Mosque to be facing their own house.

Please rememebr that it was all under divine guidance. Nothing from personal interest of Muhammad. Have you ever seen any grand book in the word which is read extensively but nobody claims to be its author.?? If Muhammad had made the Quran, he could have claimed its authership. Remember that each and every word of the Quran is revealed by Allah on the heart of Muhammad and Allah undertook to protect the Quran.

That was by its immediate writing, memorising, recitation in five daily prayers… None of these things was done in the life time of Jesus about your bible. But we Muslims give due credit (respect) to your bibleNT.

Near as I can tell, forever means exactly that. There is also Isaiah 59:21, wherein it is written

:

Good argument.

“As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” says the LORD: “My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring’s offspring,” says the LORD, “from now and forever.”

The covenant with Abraham was also forever, that was the circumcision. But Catholics do not remember that forever…

Again, the word the LORD uses is forever - NOT “until Muhammad shows up to claim otherwise”, not (because this is from the Old Testament) until the incarnation (this is why Christians do make claims that the previous scripture has been corrupted like Muslims do), not ever. The word of God will stand forever and ever and ever.

You don’t like it, take it up with God. I guarantee you’ll lose.

I do not know from where you have taken the word “forever”. It is most likely from bibleOT.But even if it is from the NT, there is no harm. Naturally, the word of God will remain for ever. It was alive in old times through Jesus. Now the words of God are alive and active (forever) through Muhammad. Welcome.

 

[LtTony]

My expalantions are in blue color.

15. O people of the Scripture! Now has Our messenger (Muhammad) come to you, explaining to you much of that which you used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. Indeed, there has come to you a light from Allah and a plain Scripture.

Who exactly is “you” that “hid” scripture? God didn’t protect Jesus’ Gospel just as Christ himself promised? Please provide a copy of the original “hidden scripture.”

Allah took a covenant (firm oath) from the christians too. The oath is not described here. But the christias forgot a good part of the message that was given to them through Jesus. They got divided into factions and sections, even became Protestants. There is evident enmity between the christians today and it will remain till the day of judgement. That is the enmity or hatred towards each other.

Allah says that He (God) will inform each party on the day of judgement about what they used to do., about what they had been doing. They cannot understand and sort out the truth in this world. They will be informed of their relative mistakes (crimes) on the day of judgement.

Forgot? The Gospel of Christ slipped their collective mind? Someone couldn’t recall where they put the Didache on a shelf?
I don’t think anyone would forget witnessing Jesus crucified.
None of that makes sense I’m afraid, planten.

The oath is not described here, you say. Where is it described, outside the Koran? Where is what was “forgotten” described outside the Koran? Nowhere, to my knowledge. One has to produce the original in order to claim the present is lacking, I’m afraid.

As far as sects, the same could be said about Islam or any religion. And at least we cleaned up our act. Sunni suicide bombers attacked shia worshippers only recently in Pakistan and Iraq.

And how can God punish someone who has “forgotten”. Not like they did it intentionally. They simply forgot. God does not punish people who do not follow Him through no fault of their own – like many muslims, for example.