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dzheremi
Guest
What? Is that the point I was making? I don’t think so. I don’t think you really read my post.
It most certainly does apply to the OT and the NT. Forever means forever. That was the entire point of my post.
A bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, don’t you think? That’s a bit like if I wrote a book about how I was going to have lunch after I’m done with this post. Now, watch as I “miraculously” confirm it by heading into the kitchen…ya Allah!
Even the stuff that was later taken out, like the satanic verses, or the material referenced in St. John Damascene’s critique of Islam that is not found in modern Qur’ans? I guess every word being written down does not exactly equate to every word being preserved.
And the Bible is recited many more times a day in monasteries, convents, churches, and private homes throughout the world. By your logic, this means the Bible is not corrupted. Thank you for finally fessing up to this fact.
By “when Allah ordered Muhammad”, I assume you mean “after it became clear that the Jews utterly rejected him and supposed prophethood, when he took his ball and went home”.
Yeahhh…it’s a good thing we don’t see any chaos anywhere in the Muslim world…what a clear sign…
Bull! And not of the kind preceded by “Papal”, either!
I don’t know whether Muhammad personally authored the Qur’an or not. This is immaterial.
Not only am I not going to remember it, I’m not going to believe it, either. Ever. So you can stop trying to convert me now, please.
This is a lie. Traditional Christian prayer is SEVEN TIMES a day. This is rooted in traditional Jewish practice (as the early followers of Christ were of Jewish background), and has been continued from the beginning of Christianity up to the current day. We pray the hours, rooted deeply in the call to prayer found in the Psalms. This is an integral part of the Christian faith. They were absolutely prayed in Jesus’ time.
Check the video by the Egyptian monks in my signature. “Seven times every day I will praise your name” is not an empty phrase. It is integral to the prayer life of the church.
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LtTony
Guest
“You means people of the book.”
Totally imprecise. Vague. Exactly which person or persons of the book “hid” it? You can’t accuse everyone.
All of which begs the question: God gave his people the words, then let them “forget” them, or permitted unspecified bad guys “hide it.” God allowed His people to be tricked.
As muslims like to say: God is not the creator of deception.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY: You cleverly didn’t provide a copy of the original “hidden scripture” as I clearly asked above. Seems like the only person who “forgot” scripture is you, not christians or jews.
Or are you trying to hide something? Unhide the scripture outside the Koran.
You can’t.
As far as suffereing… jews and christians are not perfect. And both have been persecuted at times. Doesn’t eman they lost anything.
Muslims are being persecuted in places around the world (“Islamophobia”???). So I guess by your logic they have lost their message, too.
Really, your agument is that absurd.
"Perhaps Jesus said it once or twice. But what did he mean?"
Uh, He meant He was the Son of God. And He was crucified and did Rise.
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LtTony
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I agree this has nothing to do with the discussion of corrupted scripture, but your explanation is ludicrous.
Jesus was placed in a tomb. That means He was dead. Earlier, scripture states He gave up His spirit. That means He was dead.
What happen to Christ after His resurrection is that He walked the earth for 40 days, appearing to hundreds of people.
Mohammad didn’t disprove any of that by inventing the Koran.
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LtTony
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Your asking us to prove a negative. For example, I can’t prove there is NOT a tea cup flying on the other side of Jupiter.
And you are wrong about Christ not protecting His church. Christ clearly stated “not even the gates of hell” would prevail against the Church, and promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide us (see Pentecost).
All muslims have is an Arab warlord who claims God talked to him in a cave.
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Mosacked
Guest
Hamba, Iet me give you an analogy to what islam and yourself is attempting here.Why do Christians and Jews believe that their Bible is NOT corrupted?
As far as I am aware, there is nothing in the Bible which states that the Lord will protect and preserve their scriptures from corruption.
On the contrary, I can post (and in fact have indeed posted in previous threads) passages from the Bible itself which states in no uncertain terms that the scriptures given to the Jews would become corrupted through the course of time.
Since the Lord NEVER promised to guard the earlier scriptures given to the Jews and Christians from corruption, then it is just really naive for them to believe that their scriptures have remained uncorrupted throughout the period of so many centuries.
A rich man who owns a mansion tells his son ‘Son, I am going away for a year. Guard this house and keep rogues away. You are my only son and this beautiful mansion shall one day be yours’.
The Rich man left on his business trip, and soon after a street rogue and his dad chanced upon the gloriously beautiful mansion. Entering the house which had an open gate, the rogue shouted ‘hey! brother!..’
Son - Who are you?
Rogue - I’m your brother!
Son - But I don’t have a brother.
Rogue - But you have!..your father is my father!
Son - Who is your father.
Rogue - I call my father - allah and since we have only 1 father, therefore we must have the same father.
Son - Get out of my house or I’ll call the police.
Rogue - How can you do this?..here read this book its written by our father.
Son - Get lost
Rogue - It says here…that we are brothers and our father’s name is - allah.
Son - I have my father’s writings here.
Rogue - NO!..those are CORRUPTED. That man is really not your father. Here, your father.
And the rogue brings in his own roguish looking father and both starts to dwell in the mansion. And there ensued a big fight on who actually owns the mansion.
This is exactly what is happening between Judaism, Christianity & Islam.
Like it or not. Our Father - Yahweh, left us very clear teachings. And those of us who bothers to read and understand His will will immediately reject islam as the false prophet.
muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com
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abucs
Guest
Planten,
as far as the ‘prophecy’ that Islam will spread all over the world -
Christianity has that too - is it a miracle that Christianity has spread all over the world ?
Communism claimed that too - is it a miracle that communism spread all over the world up until a couple of decades ago ?
Secularists have claimed that too - is it a miracle that secularism has spread all over the world ?
Democrats say that too - is it a miracle that democracy has spread all over the world ?
FIFA has said that too - is it a miracle that football has spread all over the world ?
NOKIA and general motors and Toyota and coca cola all made the prediction to their shareholders that their products would spread all over the world. etc.
The problem i have with groups such as Islam and Communism is that they said it will spread all over the world and then they used war to make it happen - that cannot be from God.
As far as writing down the text of Muhammad. I find it incredible that an angel of God would talk to Muhhammad who was a military leader with an army about him to control and that years after his death there needed to be a group who sat down and wrote the Koran. If Muhammad indeed was receiving messages from an angel and was commanding the growing army and civilisation of Islam, the first thing that would be done is that all of the messages would be written down and kept and protected and everybody would reciognise those official writings. You would not need 4 or 5 guys to come along later after his death under the command of another leader to research through what different people thought about the messages and then create the Koran.
From an outsiders perspective Planten, Islam does not look to have any miracles. In fact it just doesn’t make sense as a revealed religion.
I respect your right to think otherwise, but for non Muslims, Islam does does even pass the simplest tests as coming from a supernatural source.
Muslims have a right to claim that all the words of the Koran come straight from God but so far i haven’t heard one good reason for that incredible claim to be supported.
If 99% of a muslims thoughts on religion come from the Koran, and that has no good evidence of coming from God - perhaps Muslims should spend more time looking into and then convincing the rest of us why the Koran is the direct word of God.
as far as the ‘prophecy’ that Islam will spread all over the world -
Christianity has that too - is it a miracle that Christianity has spread all over the world ?
Communism claimed that too - is it a miracle that communism spread all over the world up until a couple of decades ago ?
Secularists have claimed that too - is it a miracle that secularism has spread all over the world ?
Democrats say that too - is it a miracle that democracy has spread all over the world ?
FIFA has said that too - is it a miracle that football has spread all over the world ?
NOKIA and general motors and Toyota and coca cola all made the prediction to their shareholders that their products would spread all over the world. etc.
The problem i have with groups such as Islam and Communism is that they said it will spread all over the world and then they used war to make it happen - that cannot be from God.
As far as writing down the text of Muhammad. I find it incredible that an angel of God would talk to Muhhammad who was a military leader with an army about him to control and that years after his death there needed to be a group who sat down and wrote the Koran. If Muhammad indeed was receiving messages from an angel and was commanding the growing army and civilisation of Islam, the first thing that would be done is that all of the messages would be written down and kept and protected and everybody would reciognise those official writings. You would not need 4 or 5 guys to come along later after his death under the command of another leader to research through what different people thought about the messages and then create the Koran.
From an outsiders perspective Planten, Islam does not look to have any miracles. In fact it just doesn’t make sense as a revealed religion.
I respect your right to think otherwise, but for non Muslims, Islam does does even pass the simplest tests as coming from a supernatural source.
Muslims have a right to claim that all the words of the Koran come straight from God but so far i haven’t heard one good reason for that incredible claim to be supported.
If 99% of a muslims thoughts on religion come from the Koran, and that has no good evidence of coming from God - perhaps Muslims should spend more time looking into and then convincing the rest of us why the Koran is the direct word of God.
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planten
Guest
Since you are asking for our point of view, I give here.
Jesus was not dead at all. He was not buried in a way that dead people should be buried. No burial rites were performed on Jesus. he was just laid in an airy, wide tomb where he remained for some time only.
Then Jesus (Living Jesus) was removed to another more comfortable safe place very carefuly.
There, Jesus was treated for his wounds by the Physician Nicodemus who had brought about 40 kilogram of herbs. It is better that we believe these true things about Jesus instead of your half hearted effort. These are facts mentioned in the bibleNT. Nobody applies curative herbs to any dead body.
That is what you think. Since Jesus did not die on the cross, there was no need for any resurrection.
Jesus walked about 70 miles to Galilee, being very careful that nobody recognise him, not even his followers. He never dared meet any of the Jewish council members who condemned him to humilating cursed death on the cross. He did not appear before any Roman official.
It was Jesus’s promise to show the miracle of prophet Jonas to the wicked generation. Did he go back to that wicked generation of senior Jews to tell them “Look here, I am alive and safe.” He did not do any such thing. So where is the only miracle that he had promised to the wicked generation?? Remember that it was the only miracle that was promised by Jesus.
Jesus had said " No miracle will be shown to the wicked people except the miracle of prophet Jonas…" It means that Jesus had not shown any miracle at all.
Jesus must have met many of his true followers only as mentioned in bibleNT. But when he departed from them, he did not tell any one at all as to where he was going. That was an absolute secret journey (migration) so that he would not get caught before getting out of the range of Roman Empire.
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Nine_Two
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You need to prove these corruptions, Planten, if you don’t have proof don’t bother posting them, otherwise they’re just an uneducated opinion.
You’ve proven an inability to argue properly in the past so I suggest posters not entertain his “thoughts” on the subject unless he comes forward with valid evidence.
You’ve proven an inability to argue properly in the past so I suggest posters not entertain his “thoughts” on the subject unless he comes forward with valid evidence.
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LtTony
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Byzantine_Wolf
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As I’ve said many times in the past and openly to planten, I have him on ignore, so I can’t see his posts (so I again don’t know why he addresses posts to me). However, I see the quotes of his posts that some people use, and I have to say I literally laughed out loud when I read that I lost my argument against hamba “by taking shelter under circular logic.” Awe nuts, you mean I lost by pointing out the irrational reasoning behind my opponent’s argument? 
Curses, foiled again.
As Nine_Two said, I wouldn’t encourage planten unless he starts citing sources (which he never does, and good luck demanding he provide some) or stops trying to bear-bait and present non sequitors.
Curses, foiled again.As Nine_Two said, I wouldn’t encourage planten unless he starts citing sources (which he never does, and good luck demanding he provide some) or stops trying to bear-bait and present non sequitors.
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planten
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B W, there is no problem. You could not answer even simple questions. So the best way out was to ignore. I am sure you were not capable of even a single sensible answer. I had to address you whenever I found that you were around spewing false statements against Islam. I will try to keep a watch on your weak misleading posts. Be around and enjoy.As I’ve said many times in the past and openly to planten, I have him on ignore, so I can’t see his posts (so I again don’t know why he addresses posts to me). However, I see the quotes of his posts that some people use, and I have to say I literally laughed out loud when I read that I lost my argument against hamba “by taking shelter under circular logic.” Awe nuts, you mean I lost by pointing out the irrational reasoning behind my opponent’s argument?
As Nine_Two said, I wouldn’t encourage planten unless he starts citing sources (which he never does, and good luck demanding he provide some) or stops trying to bear-bait and present non sequitors.
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Mosacked
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Planten, you are one smart lass. You know where the light shines and when to take cover from it, that you may continue to hide in darkness for the rest of your life.
muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com
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Seeker
Guest
If the scriptures of the Jews and Christians are corrupted, then mohammed (your prophet) is not a prophet!, and the Quran is not the word of Allah!Why do Christians and Jews believe that their Bible is NOT corrupted?
As far as I am aware, there is nothing in the Bible which states that the Lord will protect and preserve their scriptures from corruption.
On the contrary, I can post (and in fact have indeed posted in previous threads) passages from the Bible itself which states in no uncertain terms that the scriptures given to the Jews would become corrupted through the course of time.
Since the Lord NEVER promised to guard the earlier scriptures given to the Jews and Christians from corruption, then it is just really naive for them to believe that their scriptures have remained uncorrupted throughout the period of so many centuries.
, because Allah lied when he said in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:“Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospels”. Why would an all knowing Allah allow his last prophet, the seal of all prophets to be mentioned in “corrupted” scriptures!!, especially since this verse was one verse revealed to affirm the prophethood of mohammed for the pagan Arabs, Jews and Christians.Also according to the quran, what kind of corruption are the Jews and Christians guilty off? Note
lease provide the surah/ayaseeker
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planten
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B W, you have put me on ignore list. Well and good. You have passed off hamba as a difficult person. You are unable to answer anything.As I’ve said many times in the past and openly to planten, I have him on ignore, so I can’t see his posts (so I again don’t know why he addresses posts to me). However, I see the quotes of his posts that some people use, and I have to say I literally laughed out loud when I read that I lost my argument against hamba “by taking shelter under circular logic.” Awe nuts, you mean I lost by pointing out the irrational reasoning behind my opponent’s argument?
For B W and N_T, I will give reference to anything that I have written if B W or Nine_Two deny my statement clearly and they demand a reference. Any one should present my writing and challenge it as untrue, then only I need give reference.If it be from the BibleNT then nobody need ask for a reference. They seem to be better educated in bible Matters.
As far as healthy, progressive peaceful discussions are concerned, B W has failed us miserably by pulling the curtain and shutting the window…
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hamba2han
Guest
Not all parts of earlier scriptures have been corrupted and they have indeed retained some of their profound truths which could have come only from Almighty God Himself.If the scriptures of the Jews and Christians are corrupted, then mohammed (your prophet) is not a prophet!, and the Quran is not the word of Allah!
Also according to the quran, what kind of corruption are the Jews and Christians guilty off? Note
seeker
The great news is that Muslims have been given the Furqan i.e. the Criterion by which to filter out the corrupted segments of earlier scriptures from the profound truths that are undoubtedly found in them.
This Furqan is of course the noble Qur’an.
Think of the difference between earlier scriptures and the Qur’an in the following terms:
http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/948/15022240.JPG http://earth911.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/water-jug.jpg
Which of the two water containers would you want to drink from?.. If you pick the second container, then you have indeed chosen to believe in the truth of the Qur’an.
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Why would God suddenly shift gears? Throughout the NT, as I said before, the apostles were quoting the OT and never argued that the Jews had corrupted their scripture. Suddenly, 600 years later, in a world separated from the location of Christ and the time of Christ, we receive a book from a man with no ties to the Church or a Jewish tribe, and we’re supposed to simply believe his version of things. Why? Because he says so.
To argue that God would allow His scripture to be tarnished opens the door to open theism - God is a victim of fatalism who is incapable of stopping man’s actions.
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Nine_Two
Guest
Then prove it Hamba, that’s what I asked for in the OP.
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dzheremi
Guest
I even quoted one such example of this to Hamba2han earlier in this very thread (post #78), in response to his assertion that there is nothing in the Bible about it being protected from corruption. He has not responded to that post (instead, Planten took it up with the maximum amount of nonsense that I can take in a day), nor do I think he will.
Not that I necessarily blame him for his sudden reticence. It must hurt to be so obviously wrong.
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planten
Guest
Hamba is right. All the BibleNT is not corrupted. The Quran also says that the Christians changed a good part of their scripture. Quran says that Jesus was given the Bible. The Catholics are denying that. Anyhow, we can see the bibleOT and the Quran to prove easily that some parts of the bibleNT do not agree with BibleOT and Quran. Specially, the Trinity is no where.
There are many more points of disagreement. The corruption is of two types:
There are many more points of disagreement. The corruption is of two types:
- The alteration of the original text of bibleNT.
- The alteration of the meaning of the verses, i.e. mis-interpreting the verses.
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