Islam and Original Sin

[De_Maria]

Muslims say that Original sin is a false doctrine.

Here’s what a typical Muslim says:

**Christians believe that everyone is born a sinner. Everyone is born condemned and the only way to redeem yourself is that you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Is that really fair? I mean you are born condemned from the beginning. …

answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/original_sin_in_islam.htm
**
Let us do some comparing. What do Muslims say in the place of the doctrine? How do they explain sin in the world? Let us hear from the Muslims on this board and lets try to stay on topic.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Peregrino]

Here’s what a typical Muslim says:

**Christians believe that everyone is born a sinner. Everyone is born condemned and the only way to redeem yourself is that you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Is that really fair? I mean you are born condemned from the beginning. …
**

Some Christians, perhaps maybe even a majority of Christians believe this. I don’t.

 

[De_Maria]

Some Christians, perhaps maybe even a majority of Christians believe this. I don’t.

Nor does any Catholic. But this is what Muslims say that Catholics believe.

The point of this thread however, is to compare the true doctrine of Original Sin to what Muslims believe.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Abu_Ismail]

Thank you for the question.

The concept of dealing with sin in Islam is known as “tawbah” which is an Arabic word meaning repentance, or in Islamic terms, it’s used to refer to a spiritual return to God (Allah). The essence of tawbah is to return to Allah and to adhere to what he loves and renounce that which he dislikes. Tawbah is seen as a journey from the disliked to the liked.

Allah Most High says, “Turn towards Allah, O believers, every one of you, so that you may be successful.” [24:31]

And He says, “Ask your Lord for forgiveness and then turn in repentance to Him,” [11:3] and He says, “O you who believe! Turn in sincere repentance to Allah.” [66:8]

The Prophet :saws: said, “The one who repents from sin is like the one who never sinned.” [Ibn Maja (3240)] He also said, “Remorse is repentance.” [Ibn Maja (4242) and Ahmad (3387)]

Abu Hurayra (Allah be pleased with him) reported that the Messenger of Allah :saws: said, “Allah will turn towards anyone who turns in repentance before the sun rises from the place it set.” [Muslim]

Imam Barkawi, the great Ottoman Hanafi faqih, grammarian, and sufi, defined repentance (tawba) in his Tariqa al-Muhammadiyya as:

*“Going back from desire to sin, with the determination of not returning to it, in exaltation of Allah and out of fear of His punishment.” *[al-Bariqa fi Sharh al-Tariqa, 3.139]

The Conditions for Repentance are well known and as follows:

1. Leaving the sin;
2. Remorse over having committed the sin;
3. Resolve never to return to the sin;
4. (If it relates to the rights of another person, then to) Return the rights or property one wrongly took. [al-Bariqa fi Sharh al-Tariqa; Riyad al-Salihin]

If these conditions are truly met, then one can expect one’s sins to be forgiven. However, one has to be very careful about how sincere one is in fulfilling one’s conditions. It is recommended to seek forgiveness a lot, and to repent every time the sin comes to one’s mind.

If one keeps repeating the sin, then one should find the root cause(s) of the sin and eliminate them. For example, if one falls into a certain sin because of the company one keeps, then it would be necessary to either stop keeping their company, or to change the nature of one’s relationship with them.

So, you may ask, what is true repentance?

Ibn Hajar mentioned that Qurtubi quoted 23 different definitions of true repentance (al-tawba al-nasuh) in his tafsir. Ibn Hajar mentioned the most important of these:

1. Umar’s words (Allah be pleased with him) that it is, “To sin and then never to return to it.”
2. To hate the sin, and the seek forgiveness for it every time it occurs to one, as Hasan al-Basri (Allah have mercy on him) said.
3. Qatada’s words (Allah have mercy on him), “To be genuine and truthful in one’s repentance,” which is what Imam Bukhari chose as the definition of true repentance in his chapter heading.
4. To have sincerity in one’s repentance.
5. To be concerned about one’s repentance not being accepted.
6. To be such that it does not need another repentance after it.
7. To be made out of fear and hope, and be accompanied by consistency in worship.
8. Like the seventh, but with the added condition that one desert those who assisted one in sin.
9. That one’s sin be between one’s eyes. * [Ibn Hajar, Fath al-Bari]

Insha’Allah (God Willing) that answers your questions about the concept of atonement for sin in Islam.*

 

[De_Maria]

Thank you for the question.

You’re welcome. However, your message does not address my question. My question is, why do Muslims condemn the doctrine of Origjnal Sin. Please explain.

In the meantime. Lets compare your concept of “tawbah” to our concept of repentance and reconciliation.

The concept of dealing with sin in Islam is known as “tawbah” which is an Arabic word meaning repentance, or in Islamic terms, it’s used to refer to a spiritual return to God (Allah).

Is it only a return to God or does it require that one must reconcile also with those injured by our sins?

The Catholic concept of repentance and reconciliation requires that we make amends and also reconcile with those injured:

**1462 **Forgiveness of sins brings reconciliation with God, but also with the Church. Since ancient times the bishop, visible head of a particular Church, has thus rightfully been considered to be the one who principally has the power and ministry of reconciliation: he is the moderator of the penitential discipline. Priests, his collaborators, exercise it to the extent that they have received the commission either from their bishop (or religious superior) or the Pope, according to the law of the Church.

The essence of tawbah is to return to Allah and to adhere to what he loves and renounce that which he dislikes. Tawbah is seen as a journey from the disliked to the liked.

This seems to be similar to the Purgative Way. Wherein, we accept the discipline of God joyfully in atonement for our sins.

Allah Most High says, “Turn towards Allah, O believers, every one of you, so that you may be successful.” [24:31]

Successful? In what? Business?

And He says, “Ask your Lord for forgiveness and then turn in repentance to Him,” [11:3] and He says, “O you who believe! Turn in sincere repentance to Allah.” [66:8]

The Prophet :saws: said, “The one who repents from sin is like the one who never sinned.” [Ibn Maja (3240)] He also said, “Remorse is repentance.” [Ibn Maja (4242) and Ahmad (3387)]

Abu Hurayra (Allah be pleased with him) reported that the Messenger of Allah :saws: said, “Allah will turn towards anyone who turns in repentance before the sun rises from the place it set.” [Muslim]

Imam Barkawi, the great Ottoman Hanafi faqih, grammarian, and sufi, defined repentance (tawba) in his Tariqa al-Muhammadiyya as:

*“Going back from desire to sin, with the determination of not returning to it, in exaltation of Allah and out of fear of His punishment.” *[al-Bariqa fi Sharh al-Tariqa, 3.139]

The Conditions for Repentance are well known and as follows:

1. Leaving the sin;
2. Remorse over having committed the sin;
3. Resolve never to return to the sin;
4. (If it relates to the rights of another person, then to) Return the rights or property one wrongly took. [al-Bariqa fi Sharh al-Tariqa; Riyad al-Salihin]

Ok, I see that number four requres making amends to people.

If these conditions are truly met, then one can expect one’s sins to be forgiven.

One can expect? But does one know if they are forgiven?

In the Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation, we know we are forgiven because God reads hearts and knows if we are sincere. So, if we are sincere, we are forgiven when the Priest says, “Your sins are forgiven.”

However, one has to be very careful about how sincere one is in fulfilling one’s conditions. It is recommended to seek forgiveness a lot, and to repent every time the sin comes to one’s mind.

Recourse to the Sacrament of Reconciliation (popularly known as confession) is also highly recommended.

If one keeps repeating the sin, then one should find the root cause(s) of the sin and eliminate them. For example, if one falls into a certain sin because of the company one keeps, then it would be necessary to either stop keeping their company, or to change the nature of one’s relationship with them.

We do also. But we find that turning our lives over to God, and living as though it is He (Jesus) in us, is the most effective way to eliminate sin.

So, you may ask, what is true repentance?

Ibn Hajar mentioned that Qurtubi quoted 23 different definitions of true repentance (al-tawba al-nasuh) in his tafsir. Ibn Hajar mentioned the most important of these:

We have one definition which may be said many different ways which all mean the same thing.

1. Umar’s words (Allah be pleased with him) that it is, “To sin and then never to return to it.”
2. To hate the sin, and the seek forgiveness for it every time it occurs to one, as Hasan al-Basri (Allah have mercy on him) said.
3. Qatada’s words (Allah have mercy on him), “To be genuine and truthful in one’s repentance,” which is what Imam Bukhari chose as the definition of true repentance in his chapter heading.
4. To have sincerity in one’s repentance.
5. To be concerned about one’s repentance not being accepted.
6. To be such that it does not need another repentance after it.
7. To be made out of fear and hope, and be accompanied by consistency in worship.
8. Like the seventh, but with the added condition that one desert those who assisted one in sin.
9. That one’s sin be between one’s eyes. * [Ibn Hajar, Fath al-Bari]

Insha’Allah (God Willing) that answers your questions about the concept of atonement for sin in Islam.*

I did not ask about the concept of atonement. Unless you can somehow connect it to my question about why Muslims condemn the concept of Original Sin in no uncertain terms.

It sounds to me as though you also have one definition for true repentance which you say many different ways which all mean the same thing.

It also sounds as though your concept of repentance is close to the Christian concept. However, you seem to have no recourse to Priests or to Confession. This is very important in our faith.

As you mentioned above, it is very difficult to have perfect repentance, what we call perfect contrition. Perfect contrition comes from love of God so strong that one does not desire to offend Him.

Imperfect contrition comes from fear of punishment, of hell, which is the result of continual sin. Many people are contrite, not because they love God but because they fear His eternal punishment.

Both have recourse to the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Abu_Ismail]

You’re welcome. However, your message does not address my question. My question is, why do Muslims condemn the doctrine of Origjnal Sin. Please explain.

Forgive me, I took your questions as wanting to know what Islam says regarding sin and repentance.

As for the Original Sin doctrine, I don’t believe we condemn it but simply disagree and believe what is based in the Qur’an, where Allah says, “…no soul earns (evil) but against itself, and no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another; then to your Lord is your return” [6:164]. In other words, if my great-great-grandfather was to commit a crime, I am not responsible for his decision to do so, and visa versa. According to Islam all people are born in a state of fitrah, that is, in a state of purity and without sin. We don’t agree that sin propagates from parent to child, from generation to generation.

One can expect? But does one know if they are forgiven?

It is said that a person knows that Allah has forgiven their sins when, after repentance, they do not return to the sin. Sorry I don’t have a reference for that handy.

In the Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation, we know we are forgiven because God reads hearts and knows if we are sincere. So, if we are sincere, we are forgiven when the Priest says, “Your sins are forgiven.”

Recourse to the Sacrament of Reconciliation (popularly known as confession) is also highly recommended.

We do also. But we find that turning our lives over to God, and living as though it is He (Jesus) in us, is the most effective way to eliminate sin.

Thank you for taking the time to explain your beliefs.

Imperfect contrition comes from fear of punishment, of hell, which is the result of continual sin. Many people are contrite, not because they love God but because they fear His eternal punishment.

Muslim scholars have mentioned repeatedly that the believer lives between hope for salvation and fear of Allah’s punishment, without falling into either hopelessness or desperation out of fear, nor complacency out of excessive hope. Al-Ghazali and other Muslim thinkers hold that fear is caused by anxiety (hamm), and that hope, the twin of fear, so to speak, should accompany or decrease the intensity of fear (see Al-Khawf wa’r-raja’). Al-Ghazali describes fear (khawf) as an expression for the suffering of the heart and its conflagration by means of the anticipation of what is abhorred as a future contingency. The goal for the Muslim is not to live in fear, or hope, but to rise above both. This can become a deep and complex issue which is probably not all that related to the topic at hand, that being Islam’s disagreement with the Original Sin doctrine. But since you mentioned it, I thought it best to respond.

 

[LuvRain]

All babies are born free of sin. But they later fall prey to the sins of the world.

It is not until puberty that the sins of a person is recorded by the angels.

We do not inherit sin from anyone, not even Adam and Eve:

6:164 Say: “Shall I seek a lord other than Allah, while He is the Lord of all things? No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another. Then unto your Lord is your return, so He will tell you that wherein you have been differing.”

 

[De_Maria]

Forgive me, I took your questions as wanting to know what Islam says regarding sin and repentance.

No problem.

As for the Original Sin doctrine, I don’t believe we condemn it but simply disagree

Disagree upon what? How do you define Original Sin? What do you think we believe? Because I’ve yet to hear one Muslim describe Original Sin correctly.

and believe what is based in the Qur’an, where Allah says, “…no soul earns (evil) but against itself, and no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another; then to your Lord is your return” [6:164]. In other words, if my great-great-grandfather was to commit a crime, I am not responsible for his decision to do so, and visa versa.

So, are you saying, that Christianity teaches that I am responsible for the sins of my grandparents?

Lets look at the lives of Adam and Eve. Did Allah not remove them from paradise as a result of their sin? And if removing from Paradise was the punishment for their sin, why did Allah not admit their children back into paradise? My understanding of this Islamic doctrine is based upon many discussions with Muslims which can be summed up by this Islamic teaching:
bama.ua.edu/~msa/adam.html

According to Islam all people are born in a state of fitrah, that is, in a state of purity and without sin. We don’t agree that sin propagates from parent to child, from generation to generation.

But sin has propagated. So if it isn’t due to something which we either inherit or don’t inherit from Adam and Eve, what is its source?

Or does Islam not explain why sin propagates?

It is said that a person knows that Allah has forgiven their sins when, after repentance, they do not return to the sin. Sorry I don’t have a reference for that handy.

Does that mean one must live a lifetime without committing that sin to be sure they are forgiven?

Thank you for taking the time to explain your beliefs.

You are welcome. Thank you for cooperating.

Muslim scholars have mentioned repeatedly that the believer lives between hope for salvation and fear of Allah’s punishment, without falling into either hopelessness or desperation out of fear, nor complacency out of excessive hope. Al-Ghazali and other Muslim thinkers hold that fear is caused by anxiety (hamm), and that hope, the twin of fear, so to speak, should accompany or decrease the intensity of fear (see Al-Khawf wa’r-raja’). Al-Ghazali describes fear (khawf) as an expression for the suffering of the heart and its conflagration by means of the anticipation of what is abhorred as a future contingency. The goal for the Muslim is not to live in fear, or hope, but to rise above both. This can become a deep and complex issue which is probably not all that related to the topic at hand, that being Islam’s disagreement with the Original Sin doctrine. But since you mentioned it, I thought it best to respond.

No problem. Since we have begun this splinter to the thread, I see no harm in continuing.

This also sounds close to Catholic Teaching. As Catholics, we live in hope tempered by fear:

Romans 8
24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for?

2 Corinthians 7

15 And his bowels are more abundantly towards you; remembering the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling you have received him.

**64 **Through the prophets, God forms his people in the hope of salvation, in the expectation of a new and everlasting Covenant intended for all, to be written on their hearts. The prophets proclaim a radical redemption of the People of God, purification from all their infidelities, a salvation which will include all the nations. Above all, the poor and humble of the Lord will bear this hope. Such holy women as Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Judith and Esther kept alive the hope of Israel’s salvation. The purest figure among them is Mary.

**1949 **Called to beatitude but wounded by sin, man stands in need of salvation from God. Divine help comes to him in Christ through the law that guides him and the grace that sustains him:
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

All babies are born free of sin. But they later fall prey to the sins of the world.

It is not until puberty that the sins of a person is recorded by the angels.

We do not inherit sin from anyone, not even Adam and Eve:

6:164 Say: “Shall I seek a lord other than Allah, while He is the Lord of all things? No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another. Then unto your Lord is your return, so He will tell you that wherein you have been differing.”

Then why do Muslims commit sin? Or are Muslims sinless?

 

[paarsurrey]

Original sin is a false doctrine.

Hi

The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 has established that there is no relationship between sin and the supposed scrifice/killing of Jesus a cursed death on Cross.

Mr. Sirajuddin who was a Muslim to begin with and was a Professor in F.C.College (Forman Christian College) Lahore, When he had social contacts with the Christian Missionaries, he got influenced by their accusations and became a Christian.

When he visited Qadian in the year 1897 and got introduced with the PromisedMessiah i.e. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835-1908) and he had discussions with him on different topics about Islam and Christianity, he became convinced of the Islam’s merits and became a Muslim again and started praying as is customary in Islam.

When he returned to Lahore and met the Christian Missionaries he again was influenced by the priests and became Christian again. He wrote four questions and sent it to the PromisedMessiah for a response. The PromisedMessiah answered the questions in a article and named it “Sirajuddin Issai Kay Char Swaloon Ka Jawab” in Urdu, which when translated in English would be “The Response to Four Questions from Sirajuddin a Christian”.

This was also published for the benefit of the public on June 22, 1897 in the form of a small book of only 48 pages. The questions were in Urdu as was the response. This small book has not yet been translated in English; I intend to render its informal translation in English, God willing, especially for the larger benefit of my Christian friends in the forum for a better understanding of the Religions, Christianity and Islam.

English not being my mother language, I may make certain mistakes, in case of any contention the original in Urdu must be referred. I would do it piecemeal, page by page, and would be discussing it here in the Forum also.

The first Question is as under:

According to the Christian beliefs, Christ’s mission to come in this world was for Love of the humanity and to offer his Sacrifice for the fellow human being. Was this the mission of the founder of Islam also in the same meaning or not? Could his mission be described in other better words than Love or Sacrifice?

Thanks

 

[De_Maria]

Hi

The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 has established that there is no relationship between sin and the supposed scrifice/killing of Jesus a cursed death on Cross.

And you believe him?

Mr. Sirajuddin who was a Muslim to begin with

First he was Muslim…

and was a Professor in F.C.College (Forman Christian College) Lahore, When he had social contacts with the Christian Missionaries, he got influenced by their accusations and became a Christian.

Then Christian… (Which denomination? Do you know?)

When he visited Qadian in the year 1897 and got introduced with the PromisedMessiah i.e. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835-1908) and he had discussions with him on different topics about Islam and Christianity, he became convinced of the Islam’s merits and became a Muslim again and started praying as is customary in Islam.

Ok, so Mirza is the promised Messiah.

When he returned to Lahore and met the Christian Missionaries he again was influenced by the priests and became Christian again.

OK

He wrote four questions and sent it to the PromisedMessiah for a response. The PromisedMessiah answered the questions in a article and named it “Sirajuddin Issai Kay Char Swaloon Ka Jawab” in Urdu, which when translated in English would be “The Response to Four Questions from Sirajuddin a Christian”.

This was also published for the benefit of the public on June 22, 1897 in the form of a small book of only 48 pages. The questions were in Urdu as was the response. This small book has not yet been translated in English; I intend to render its informal translation in English, God willing, especially for the larger benefit of my Christian friends in the forum for a better understanding of the Religions, Christianity and Islam.

English not being my mother language, I may make certain mistakes, in case of any contention the original in Urdu must be referred. I would do it piecemeal, page by page, and would be discussing it here in the Forum also.

Page by page. Sounds long.

The first Question is as under:

**According to the Christian beliefs, Christ’s mission to come in this world was for Love of the humanity and to offer his Sacrifice for the fellow human being. **

**

Correct.

Was this the mission of the founder of Islam

**No.

also in the same meaning or not?

No.

Could his mission be described in other better words than Love or Sacrifice?

Mohammed’s mission could be described as “personal gain.” In my opinion.

Thanks

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Maybe I’m not making myself clear. The points I want to make are these:

1. Muslims don’t understand the Christian doctrine of Origial Sin.

Muslims claim that the Christian doctrine of Original Sin means that God punsihes all men by making them guilty and punishing them for Adam and Eve’s actual sin.

That is a false understanding of the true doctrine of Original Sin:

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.
scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#405

In layman’s terms, the doctrine of Original Sin explains that we can’t inherit what our parents don’t have. Adam and Eve had a nature of Original holiness and justice. They exchanged it for a nature of Original Sin. Then they bore children. We could not inherit the nature of Original holiness and justice which Adam and Eve lost. All we could inherit was the nature of Original Sin.

This explains why all men are prone to commit sin.

2… In denying the Muslim misunderstanding of Original Sin, Muslims contrradict themselves.

In denying their understanding of the Christian doctrine of Original Sin, Muslims claim that Allah does not punish one person for the sins of another. In other words, Allah won’t punish you and I for Adam and Eve’s sin.

Yet, it is clear from Islamic teaching that Adam and Eve were expelled from Paradise as punsihment for their sin. Even though they repented. So, why aren’t today’s Muslims residing in Paradise? It appears they share in Adam and Eve’s punishment.

In other words, Muslims not only don’t understand Christian doctrine. They contradict themselves in their explanation for denying the doctrine that they don’t understand.

1. Also, in denying that men are born with Original Sin and claiming that all men are born without sin, Islam has no reasonable explanation for man’s propensity to sin.

In my opinion, the true religion of God should be able to explain why man is prone to sin.

Therefore, in my opinion, Catholic doctrine shows its divine attributes by explaining those mysteries of human life which no other religion, including Islam, can explain.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Khalfan]

Maybe I’m not making myself clear. The points I want to make are these:

1. Muslims don’t understand the Christian doctrine of Origial Sin.

Muslims claim that the Christian doctrine of Original Sin means that God punsihes all men by making them guilty and punishing them for Adam and Eve’s actual sin.

That is a false understanding of the true doctrine of Original Sin:

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.
scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#405

In layman’s terms, the doctrine of Original Sin explains that we can’t inherit what our parents don’t have. Adam and Eve had a nature of Original holiness and justice. They exchanged it for a nature of Original Sin. Then they bore children. We could not inherit the nature of Original holiness and justice which Adam and Eve lost. All we could inherit was the nature of Original Sin.

This explains why all men are prone to commit sin.

Were Adam and Eve prone to commit sin? If YES, how come, since they weren’t inherited of original sin?

2… In denying the Muslim misunderstanding of Original Sin, Muslims contrradict themselves.

In denying their understanding of the Christian doctrine of Original Sin, Muslims claim that Allah does not punish one person for the sins of another. In other words, Allah won’t punish you and I for Adam and Eve’s sin.

Yet, it is clear from Islamic teaching that Adam and Eve were expelled from Paradise as punsihment for their sin. Even though they repented. So, why aren’t today’s Muslims residing in Paradise? It appears they share in Adam and Eve’s punishment.

In other words, Muslims not only don’t understand Christian doctrine. They contradict themselves in their explanation for denying the doctrine that they don’t understand.

In Muslim understanding, mankind were supposed to live on earth, not in the garden. I don’t know where it was according to Bible, but let me ask, in the same way, Adam and Eve were expelled from garden. Since, Jesus (pbuh) paid his life on the cross for that one inheritence of original sin, atleast the baptised christians are supposed to be be put back in the garden. Are you baptised? Are you in the garden now? (If you say YES, I will ask, which company providing internet access there )

The baptised women are not supposed to feel pain in child birth? Are they so? If not why?

The answers will tell you, what the christian doctrines are and what is running in the real world.

According to Quran, Adam and Eve sinned. They repented. God forgiven their sin and guided them for their life after. Expelling from garden had nothing to do with the sin, since the earth were created for man. They were in the garden for some time, which lead to the later events. Adam and Eve were guided about serpent, his temptations and the forbidden fruit. The forbidden fruit was a test of loyalty for Adam and Eve. They failed in the test and repented. God forgiven the sin guided them. This events were supposed to happen in the garden. That is what I understand from Quran and God knows best.

Now, according to Bible, were they guided about the serpent? his temptations? were they had the knowledge of good and evil, which could make them capable of recognizing good (command of God) and evil (temptation of serpent), before they eat the fruit? We don’t find they were guided and they had the knowledge, in the Bible. If you still say, it was a sin, Bible fails to give you a logical reason. Were they forgiven, according to Bible?

cont.

 

[Khalfan]

Cont.

1. Also, in denying that men are born with Original Sin and claiming that all men are born without sin, Islam has no reasonable explanation for man’s propensity to sin.

In my opinion, the true religion of God should be able to explain why man is prone to sin.

Therefore, in my opinion, Catholic doctrine shows its divine attributes by explaining those mysteries of human life which no other religion, including Islam, can explain.

Sincerely,

De Maria

As you have said, true religion of God should be able to explain why man is prone to sin. What is sin? Is it something invented by man? or inherited from ancsestors? Where Adam inherited the sin from? God?

SIN is a potential in human nature. It results from our free will and choice. God created Adam with the potential to sin. If God doesn’t wanted sin ever to happen, ever to exist, why he made man to be able to sin? Becasue he wanted us to sin. He wanted to know, how many of us repent from our sin and follow his guidence. Any of our sin cannot negate God and his holyness. He is ever willing to forgive those who repent and turn back to him. According to Bible too, it is,

Eze 18:20 "The person who sins will die The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. 21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

No one else will be responsible for our deeds. We ourself will have to suffer for our sins and no one can pay for our sins. This is what we Muslims and the earlier scriptures in many places teach. Even Jesus (pbuh) emphasised on deeds in NT, by asking to follow the commandmends and asking to take the narrow path to heaven.

Adam and Eve sinned and their deeds made sinners them only. Our sins are our own responsibility. We all born in the same holyness as Adam and Eve was. We all have the same potential to sin as what they had at time of creation. It is just one potential in many other potentials in us as to love, show mercy, be good or bad. This is what scriptures teach, Jesus (pbuh) taught and Islam teach. So again, true religion of God should be able to explain why man is prone to sin. There is no ORIGINAL SIN but the potential to sin, and Islam is the true religion of God.

 

[De_Maria]

Were Adam and Eve prone to commit sin?

No.

If YES, how come, since they weren’t inherited of original sin?

Catholic teaching says that God created Adam and Eve with every advantage and placed them in a setting where it would be very simple for them to continue living without sin. But God did not then, nor does He now, coerce anyone’s faith. He created them with free will.

Although God created Adam and Eve perfect. Even perfect men are not God’s. Perfect men still have limited intellect and knowledge. They still have to weigh their options. Adam and Eve made a choice. They had the freedom to choose, believe in Him or in Satan’s lies. They accepted Satan’s lies. In so doing they separated themselves from God’s grace.

In comparison, Quranic lore tries to imitate the story of Adam and Eve, but in denying the truth of Original Sin, it is clear that Mohammed did not understand the value of the teaching.

In Muslim understanding, mankind were supposed to live on earth, not in the garden.

Where does it say that in the Quran?

It would seem, from the interpretation of this Islamic website,

http://bama.ua.edu/~msa/adam.html

that Adam and Eve were removed from the Garden in punishment for their transgression. The Quranic text also
seems clear. So, if the Quran states otherwise in another section, then this would seem to be another contradiction.

I don’t know where it was according to Bible, but let me ask, in the same way, Adam and Eve were expelled from garden. Since, Jesus (pbuh) paid his life on the cross for that one inheritence of original sin, atleast the baptised christians are supposed to be be put back in the garden.

That is your misunderstanding of Christian doctrine. Jesus did not die so that we would be put back in the garden without effort. Jesus died to give us an example of sacrifice that we might follow in His footsteps:

1 Peter 2
21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.

That is why He said:

Matthew 16
24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

and St. Paul understood the teaching well:

Romans 8
17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

Therefore, it is after we die that we inherit the glory of paradise, if we persever til the end, not before:

Matthew 10
22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

Are you baptised? Are you in the garden now? (If you say YES, I will ask, which company providing internet access there )

Ah yes, I believe it is St. Petersnet.

The baptised women are not supposed to feel pain in child birth? Are they so? If not why?

Yes, they are. It is in childbirth that women are saved:

1 Timothy 2
15 Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

If you understood the connection between sacrifice and suffering which Jesus showed us, you will understand why the suffering of childbearing and the sacrifice of motherhood is so important for a woman’s salvation.

The answers will tell you, what the christian doctrines are and what is running in the real world.

Yes. It is obvious that Catholic doctrine is right on the money and Islamic doctrine is false.

According to Quran, Adam and Eve sinned. They repented. God forgiven their sin and guided them for their life after. Expelling from garden had nothing to do with the sin, since the earth were created for man.

That is not what a plain reading of the above text says. Nor is it what that particular Islamic Website teaches. Why should I believe you instead of them.

They were in the garden for some time, which lead to the later events. Adam and Eve were guided about serpent, his temptations and the forbidden fruit. The forbidden fruit was a test of loyalty for Adam and Eve. They failed in the test and repented. God forgiven the sin guided them. This events were supposed to happen in the garden. That is what I understand from Quran and God knows best.

This does not explain the persistence of sin in human life.

Now, according to Bible, were they guided about the serpent? his temptations? were they had the knowledge of good and evil, which could make them capable of recognizing good (command of God) and evil (temptation of serpent), before they eat the fruit? We don’t find they were guided and they had the knowledge, in the Bible. If you still say, it was a sin, Bible fails to give you a logical reason. Were they forgiven, according to Bible?

According to the Bible they were given an instruction which they did not obey. Disobedience of God’s commands is a sin in the Bible. Is it a sin in the Quran?

Yes, Adam and Eve were forgiven. After Cain killed Abel, Adam and Eve conceived Seth. Adam’s line through Seth were called the Sons of God:

Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generation of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him to the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female; and blessed them: and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. 3 And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begot a son to his own image and likeness, and called his name Seth. 4 And the days of Adam, after he begot Seth, were eight hundred years: and he begot sons and daughters. 5 And all the time that Adam lived came to nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

As you have said, true religion of God should be able to explain why man is prone to sin. What is sin?

Sin is an action against God’s will. In Adam and Eve’s case it is direct disobedience to God’s command.

Is it something invented by man?

The first sin was committed by Satan.

or inherited from ancsestors?

Sin itself is not inherited. A fallen human nature prone to sin is inherited.

Where Adam inherited the sin from?

Adam did not inherit sin. He introduced sin to human nature when he set his free will against God’s loving will,.

God?

No God does not sin. Therefore Adam could not inherit sin from God. God is love. God created man to love and to be loved in return. God did not need to create man. But He created man for man’s own good. It is better to be than not to be. It is better to have the potential to love God, then never to have the opportunity to do so.

Which brings up another point. Islam also does not explain why God created man. A reaonable God acts reasonably. God is love and therefore created man for a reason. To love and be loved by him.

In Allah’s case, I have never heard that Allah had a reason to create man. In other words, Allah created man for no reason.
Therefore, Allah acted unreasonably in creating man. Or any creature for that matter.

SIN is a potential in human nature. It results from our free will and choice. God created Adam with the potential to sin. If God doesn’t wanted sin ever to happen, ever to exist, why he made man to be able to sin? Becasue he wanted us to sin.

This disagrees with Catholic teaching. God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. (1 Tim 2:4).

He wanted to know,

God is omnicient.

how many of us repent from our sin and follow his guidence. Any of our sin cannot negate God and his holyness. He is ever willing to forgive those who repent and turn back to him. According to Bible too, it is,

According to the Bible only.

surah 35 8 Is he, the evil of whose deeds is made fairseeming unto him so that he deemeth it good, (other than Satan’s dupe) ? Allah verily sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will; so let not thy soul expire in sighings for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do!

surah 42 44he whom allah leads astray has none to protect him thereafter. you will see the harmdoers when they see the punishment saying: 'is there a way back? ’

Eze 18:20 "The person who sins will die The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. 21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

No one else will be responsible for our deeds.

correct.

We ourself will have to suffer for our sins and no one can pay for our sins. This is what we Muslims and the earlier scriptures in many places teach.

No they don’t. You don’t know scripture very well.

Scripture teaches for each other. When God brought the Jews from Egypt, His /will was that the Jews be a nation of priests:

Exodus 19
6 And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation. Those are the words thou shalt speak to the children of Israel.
:
but when they worshipped the golden calf, the levites proved themselves zealous for God:

Exodus 32
26 Then standing in the gate of the camp, he said: If any man be on the Lord’s side let him join with me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him:

Therefore God appointed them His Priests to intercede for Israel…

Leviticus 5
10 And the other he shall burn for a holocaust, as is wont to be done: and the priest shall pray for him, and for his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

There are many other examples, but I only need to show one.

Even Jesus (pbuh) emphasised on deeds in NT, by asking to follow the commandmends and asking to take the narrow path to heaven.

But almost all of Jesus miracles were examples of the power of intercession:

Matthew 8
5 And when he had entered into Capharnaum, there came to him a centurion, beseeching him, 6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, and is grieviously tormented. 7 And Jesus saith to him: I will come and heal him.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

Adam and Eve sinned and their deeds made sinners them only.

Correct. But their sin also deprived them of Original Justice and Holiness. They willingly exchanged this state of being for Original Sin. As a result, their children could no longer inherit Original Justice and Sin, but must inherit Original Sin.

This is a law that even Muslims can’t escape. Lets say a Muslim has earned $1 million dollars. Say this Muslim goes and spends the $1 million dollars until he no longer has any money. Then he gets married and has children and then dies. What will his children inherit. They will certainly not inherit the $1 million that he spent. They will inherit what he has when he dies, but not what he had before.

Our sins are our own responsibility.

That is Catholic Teaching.

We all born in the same holyness as Adam and Eve was.

That disagrees with Catholic Teaching.

We all have the same potential to sin as what they had at time of creation.

Not true. But we have the same potential to sin as they had after the fall.

It is just one potential in many other potentials in us as to love, show mercy, be good or bad.

That is Catholic Teaching.

This is what scriptures teach, Jesus (pbuh) taught and Islam teach.

Islam does not teach what Jesus teaches. The teachings of Jesus are preserved in the Catholic Church.

So again, true religion of God should be able to explain why man is prone to sin.

Which Catholic doctrine does and Islam does not.

There is no ORIGINAL SIN but the potential to sin, and Islam is the true religion of God.

Lets compare:

1. You admit that Islam teaches that Allah created man to sin.

In contrast, the Catholic Church teaches that God created man to love and to love Him in return.

1. You admit that Islam that no one else can pay for our sins.

In contrast, The Catholic Church teaches that we can pay for the sins of those we love, just as Jesus paid for our sins because He loves us. That is also why we can pray and intercede for each other.

1. You admit that Islam teaches that Allah created man imperfect.

In contrast, the Catholic Church teaches that God does not create imperfectly, either by mistake nor by intention. If God would create imperfectly by intent, then He would not be all good and all loving. If He created imperfectly by mistake than He wouldn’t be perfect Himself.

1. You claim that no Original Sin is taught in Islam. Yet, it is clear from the Quranic text that Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden because of their first sin. This is also how some Muslims understand the text as shown in the reference I presented.
2. Because you claim that Allah created man to sin and therefore imperfectly, I deduce that Allah did not create man out of love. It is unreasonable for God to create something He loves imperfectly by intention.
3. Islam does not take into account the expiation of sin through suffering. What Jesus came to show us on the Cross.

So far as I can see, the Catholic doctrine is far more reasonable than the Islamic doctrine.

But I await your response.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[paarsurrey]

And you believe him?

so Mirza is the promised Messiah.

Hi

Question :And you believe him?

Answer:Yes , I believe him.

Question :so Mirza is the promised Messiah.

Answer: Yes, he is the PromisedMessiah or in him the Second Coming of Jesus has taken place, metaphorically not literally.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

The first Question from Sirajuddin , a Christian:

According to the Christian beliefs, Christ’s mission to come in this world was for Love of the humanity and to offer his Sacrifice for the fellow human being. Was this the mission of the founder of Islam also in the same meaning or not? Could his mission be described in other better words than Love or Sacrifice?

The Response by the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908

It may be clarified that the questioner want to know that as per the concepts of the Christians that Jesus Christ came into this world that he may show love to the sinners by taking the curse of their sins on his own head and for that very purpose he is killed for their those sins. Is there any example for his cursed sacrifice for the sinners to save them? Does Quran offer such a sacrifice or not? If Quran does not offer it then does Quran offer a better means for the redemption of the humans from sin?

We want to inform Mr. Sirajuddin that Quran does not offer any such sacrifice. Quran does not think it justifiable at all that the curse of one’s sin should be put on someone else, not to speak of the collection of millions people’s sin on a single individual for nothing. Quran says it very categorically “wa la tazeru wazeratun wezra aukhraa” Sura Bani Israel, 17:16; meaning none would bear the burden of someone else. But before I proceed further I want to elucidate Quranic guidance, I think it appropriate that I may show the mistake of this principle of the Christians so that a person who wants to make a comparison of teachings of Quran and NTBible he could do it with ease.

Lit it be known that the Christians principle that God loved humankind so for their emancipation he thus arranged that the burden of sins of the disobedient, infidels and wrongdoer ones He put on his loving son Jesus. To free humankind from sins He made Jesus a cursed one and Jesus was hanged on the cursed tree. This principle is a bad one, rather shameful from all aspects. If we weigh it on the scale of justice it would prove to be a sheer cruelty; would it make any sense to punish “y” for the crime committed by “x”? Human conscience does not approve it altogether that the actual culprit should be released and his punishment should be borne by someone else who has done no sin at all.
Unquote
Thanks

The response would continue