Islam and Original Sin

[De_Maria]

Do you know that, it was not 73 books in the first compiled Bible, and apocrepha was not 7, in that Bible?

If you mean the canonical books, the number of books is not important. The Word itself is now written differently. When it was first written, it was in fact, one entire word. No commas, periods or stops of any kind.

Sentences, verses and chapters are human innovations to make the Word of God more accessible to human understanding. Therefore, there have been as many as 78 divisions of the same canonical information. However they have been standardized to 73 today.

If you mean the Catholic apocrypha, some of which was actually read in local Churches before the Magisterium standardised the canon of the Bible. I am also aware of those.

I can see it with Bible teachings as well.

Not within the Catholic Church.

So you mean, Adam and Eve (pbut) were not forgiven at that time?

I said they were forgiven. But I didn’t say when. They were forgiven when they repented and there is no mention as to when they repented. But it was before they gave birth to Seth.

But you said below, they were forgiven?

Correct. That is why we now count them among our Saints in heaven.

If they were forgiven, their account was clear.

That is true.

They were in the state back.

Nope. They gave that away. In order to get it back they had to unite themselves to God by an act of will persevering to the end of their lives. Which they did.

They never had to wait for any sacrifice for it.

Says you.

You also said that Adam and Eve were forgiven. If they were forgiven why weren’t they admitted back into Paradise. So…?

They did the sacrifice/repentence that God ever demanded from us. You believe, it was God who sacrificed his life for us. Who demanded the sacrifice is also God. God is the Giver and the reciever. If you have to pay $100 to yourself, what you do?

In fact, I used to do that frequently. I would frequently reward myself for a job well done. Does that mean I’m crazy? I don’t think so, otherwise many of these fellows who train people to exercise their muscles and to study are also crazy because they teach the very same thing. That is who I learned that from.

Unlike Allah, our God is not capricious. He established rules and commands that we must follow. But since we could not follow them and since it was obvious that without guidance we would not understand what He wanted, He came in human flesh to show us precisely what He meant by the words “Love God and Love Neighbor as yourself.”

Now your running away from your own analogy.

Not true. It is obvious you haven’t understood my analogy. Look how many times I’ve had to repeat it to you. But I’m not blaming you, no analogy is perfect. That is why they are called analogies. Because they aren’t the real thing but only allude to the real thing.

But God himself was the one who has to give back the grace that they lost. Who sacrificed himself also is the same God. It is like I lost my $1000 in my own casino. And you are saying I have to do something to me to make me happy and to earn that $1000 back from my own cash counter. That is illogical my dear.

No. Again, the case of the family is the best analogy

Let us say that your son is in your casino and he loses your money. Assuming you love your son, what will you do? Will you kill your son? No, you keep on working and make up the money yourself to pay for your son’s mistake.

At the same time, do you let your son off the hook. Most loving parents who want to teach theri children responsibility would expect their son to at least try to pay back what he had lost.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Khalfan]

The effect is not exactly the same. We have less culpability than Adam and Eve. That is why a seemingly minor sin in Adam and Eve was of such major consequence. Because they had every advantage.

Luke 12
48 But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.

You believe so. But for any Muslim, Adam’s (pbuh) sin has nothing to do in our life. They were able to sin by birth. We too are.

I said there was a potential. Potential doesn’t mean prone. Obviously you have some trouble with the nuances of English. Adam and Eve did not have a “tendency” to sin. We do. We are prone to sin.

Again, you believe so. We believe he had the tendency, so he sinned. Otherwise someone have to force him to do that. None did that.

No you haven’t. I have proved that Adam and Eve were created by Allah to live in Paradise from the Quran. I proved that Allah ejected Adam and Eve from Paradise as punishment for their sin, from the Quran.

It is obvious that if Allah evicted Adam and Eve from Paradise, He created them for Paradise.

Is contradictory in more than one way. As I have proven, Islam contradicts itself even in their contradiction of Original Sin.

No. In both, God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden. In both, Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden after they sinned. The facts are plain.
CONT’D

You believe so. And you have your ways to prove Christianity (for the timebeing) and disprove Islam. I have given enough verses from Quran saying man was created to live on earth, not in paradise. You too have no idea, if garden is in earth. But Bible says,

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Which clearly proves God made man to rule earth, not the paradise.

Do you reject this verse as well as just imagination of Moses (pbuh)? If not, you are contradicting your self. I say again, as per Quran and Bible, man were created to rule the earth, not paradise.

 

[Khalfan]

God didn’t create earth as it is now. You can look at history and see that man has affected adversely the nature of earth since his arrival upon earth.

We believe, even a single leaf moves by the will of God.

That is true. But earth was not made for man to live in, but for man to protect. Man was made to live in Paradise, in the Garden which God made as a temple which Adam would till and keep and thus offer a living sacrifice of love to God. Thus Adam and Eve would protect the earth and all that lived in it.

Gen 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.

Seem like you never read it.

As has been noted by my companions. When Muslims have been proven wrong, they twist arguments and make false accusations to pretend they have a point. I will let the reader decide who has the reason, you or I.

Again, we don’t believe in inheritence of sin.

You said that when God forgives everything is restored. Why then were Adam and Eve not permitted back into Eden? Again, Islamic teaching contradicts itself.

But from the very beginning, Islam doesn’t teach man were created for paradise. Neither do Bible.

That is the vast difference between Allah and God. God didn’t make man to sin. Obviously Allah is like the unethical worker who makes something defective so he can fix it.

That is far acceptable than a God who got surprised of the human deeds. Allah knows his creation and its capability. That is his omnipotence.

That is true. Atheists and Muslims have much in common. Except one thing. Don’t ask an atheist to believe that Mohammed saw an angel without proof.

No. Islam, as has been shown over and over in this thread, is PRONE to illogical thinking.

Look at the very first premise. You expect people to believe that Mohammed saw an angel and received from him a revelation. And you expect this belief without any proof. That is illogical.

Did I? We never do that. Do Quran ask that? Did Mohamed (pbuh) asked that? No. Instead, Quran gives us reason to think and know God, which can be acceptable to any layman. Quran dosen’t ask people to wait for the spirit to understand the faith.

Look at the subject at hand. You don’t know the true Christian doctrine of Original Sin. But you object to it on the basis that no person is punished for another’s sin. And the solution you prescribe is the Islamic version of Adam and Eve’s expulsion from Eden to which their children were not admitted. Obviously then, their children were also punished for Adam and Eve’s sin.

Isn’t it the same thing you believe, we are seperated from God becasue of the act of Adam (pbuh)? Why we have to be separate from God becasue of Adam (pbuh)? You are suffering on earth becasue of Adam (pbuh). Isn’t that what yuo teach? You can give your own interpretations/imaginations, even new names for it. But the concept is what matters. It is what I was debating with, not the terms you use.

Then you claim that forgiveness of sin puts restores everything to how it used to be. Therefore, you say, Yahweh should have restored the fallen nature of Adam and Eve in the Bible. Yet, although you admit that Allah forgave Adam and Eve in the Quran, I don’t see a restoration of Adam and Eve to the Garden.

I said, we were not created to live in paradise. It is your own claim my dear. Not even Bible supports that. If you are in making of your own christianity, please go on.

So, the fact is clear. You are so accustomed to contradiction that you can’t even recognize it.

And you have proven that you have much in common with atheists:

1 Corinthians 2
14 But the sensual man perceiveth not these things that are of the Spirit of God; for it is foolishness to him, and he cannot understand, because it is spiritually examined.

Atheists believe only what they perceive through their senses. Therefore, since you have much in common with them, you can’t perceive the spiritual elements even in the things you brought up.

Sincerely,

De Maria

God gave me enough brain to think and recognise facts about me and around me. It may mistake things. But I don’t think, my creater is unaware of my capabilities. I don’t think he do expect 100% perfection from me, since he knows me morethan I do myself. I seek refuge in him. I seek guidence from him. I have that and I follow that as much as possible. I don’t DIE to live in hereafter. But I live and ask for long life, so that I can live here enjoying his blessings and preapare for hereafter.

 

[De_Maria]

It is about his nature, and we believe he is all powerful. That doesn’t mean he can create another eternal God. Because that is like drawing a circle with corners. It is not about able or unable, but its illogical.

God is all good therefore it is illogical to believe that God can be evil.

I am a Sunni. None of the Muslims anywhere in the world do believe there is satanic verses in the Quran.

I’ve spoken to Sunnis who do believe in abrogation. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the names in the articles both about abrogation and about the satanic verses, they are Muslim names, aren’t they?

We have a miracle infront of us. We believe, no one could make it other than God. It is the Holy Quran. If Quran is not true, we don’t have to believe in Mohamed (pbuh). It is Quran that gives me reason to believe in God and in Mohamed (pbuh).

Well then, lets go through the Quran and see how many more errors and contradictions we can find.

It is obvious that there are great differences in the understanding of Original Sin between Muslims and Christians. First of all, Muslims teach an erroneous understanding of the doctrine. In fact, you have been told over and over what the true doctrine is, but you refuse to accept it and keep repeating the Islamic teaching of what is the Christian doctrine.

So, 1. Muslims don’t understand the Christian doctrine of Original Sin.

Then also, Muslims contradict themselves on the issue of how they resolve what they consider the Christian error. They claim that Christians teach that many are punished for the sin of one. Yet, they also produce a doctrine where all are punished for Adam’s sin.

So 2. Muslims teach that many are not punished for the sin of one, yet all Muslims were punished for the sin of Adam and Eve.

Then Muslims teach that once one is forgiven, that puts everything back to the original state. Yet they teach that Adam and Eve were forgiven, yet they weren’t restored to Paradise, nor were their children.

So 3, Muslims teach that God’s forgiveness restores everything to the original state, yet God forgave Adam and Eve and did not restore them to Paradise.

1. Khalfan adjusted his understanding that Allah leads the evil to hell and that Allah creates man to sin. In the end, he had pretty much accepted the Catholic doctrine that God is all good and God does not lead man to sin nor create man to sin.

He’ll have to deal with his Imam on that matter because he’s the first Sunni Muslim I’ve ever met in ten years who changed his position on this matterr.

1. Muslims don’t believe that one man may bear another’s sufferngs. This is a crucial difference between our religions. It is best explained by the Cross of Jesus Christ who came to show us how to lay down our life for those we love.
2. Is there anything else?

What if I say, God didn’t give enough time to repent?

Then I say, take it up with God. I am God’s servant, not God’s master that I will argue with God over what God thinks is best.
CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D

And I hope there was children even among those who dead in flood. Did they know about their sin and they were supposed to repent to be saved?

I would rather put their eternal fate in God’s merciful hands than in man’s.

That is another main difference between Islam and Christianity. Your main goal, perhaps because of your similarity to atheists, is happiness in this life. Our main goal is union with God and happiness in the next life.

1 Corinthians 15:12-1412Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

It gives no logic in believing, God really wanted all to be saved my dear.

Apparently you assume that God condemned the children to hell. But the entire premise of our religion is imitatio Christi. The imitation of Christ. And no one can imitate Christ as closely as innocent children who have committed no actual sin.

It is as you said, “God gives and God takes away”. He has the right to do so. Which proves again, ‘Jesus’ didn’t die for all.

You continue to interpret Christian Scripture in the spirit of Islam. Jesus did die for our sins and He rose on the third day and is now sitting at th right hand of the Father.

There were people who paid themselm for their sins. The reason was as you said, they rejected the choice that God given. If this is the case for some in your christian theology,

That is the case for all who died impenitent. That means for all who refused God’s grace.

we Muslims believe this is the case for all. We all are subject to the choice God given us. If we choose, we will be saved. If not, we will have to pay for it in hell.

This is what you say now. But you have also said that Allah will lead those who chose evil into hell. And if we refer to the Islamic documents we see that Adam admitted that his sin was pre ordained. Therefore, it appears that Adam, the Father of the human race, disagrees with you. So, the Quran is not very clear cut in this doctrine.

Whereas the Church is very clear. Those who chose willfully to turn away from God and persevere in that decision.

Those who repent and choose willfully to embrace Christ and His Teachings and persevere in that decision will be saved.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Khalfan]

Excellent point of departure between Islam and Catholicism!

God, Yahweh, never leads men to hell. He does not interfere with their free will if they want to go to hell themselves. But God does not lead them there.

Allah, as Khalfan has reiterated over and over, will lead men to hell when they want to go. Now the way that men go to hell is by committing evil upon others. There is no road to hell which one walks and finds. So, in order for Allah to lead men to hell, he must lead them to commit evil upon others that they might commit the most heinous evil upon themselves, the destruction of their souls…

And there you go again. God, Yahweh, permits men to commit evil that He may bring good from it. But God, Yahweh, does not lead them to commit evil.

Apparently, Allah does, at least according to Khalfan.

That is Catholic teaching.

If that is a catholic teaching, then why you were refuting?!!

Do you mind the readers can understand something from you? I am saying, not even a leaf moves without the will of God, which includes our thoughts and actions as well. But you refute exclusivly the part of our sin. I am asking where we get the ability to do that sin? Do you have your own power to do good deed or a sin, unless God given it to you?

I think you still have a lot of basic things to learn about God. You were an athiest. right? when did you convert?

You believe God will question you? Doesn’t He know?

We believe in God’s omniscience.

We too. I think, you imagined something like a police station or a court, where God is asking question and we are answering. But God will question us, means we will have to stay infront of him on the judgement day answerable to our actions.

Transparently.

Here is another error in Islamic doctrine. As Khalfan has continuously said, Allah leads those who want to go to hell. Now, he says they must seek guidance from Allah. Allah will not guide them anywhere unless they seek to be guided. How many Atheists will seek guidance from Allah?

This is an illogical, poorly thought out doctrine. An error. But it is typical of Islamic Theology.

Many did already.

What this Muslim wrote is nonsense? Aren’t these words attributed to Mohammed?

InJesus wrote nonesense about that hadees.

Then you are saying that Adam’s sin was not preordained by Allah? Yet those are the plain words of that reference.

Sincerely,

De Maria

That is clear from the hadees itself. If those arguments were right or wrong is to be known only on judgement day. Until then, you can’t act like GOD.

 

[Khalfan]

Again, this highlights the Muslims deplorable understanding of Catholic teaching. Did you not know that we are the New Israel, a nation of Priests, a Holy People?

Exodus 19
6 And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation. Those are the words thou shalt speak to the children of Israel.

1 Peter 2

9 But you are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Sincerely,

De Maria

Holy people? You already decided that.

 

[De_Maria]

You believe so.

Correct.

But for any Muslim, Adam’s (pbuh) sin has nothing to do in our life. They were able to sin by birth. We too are.

Ok, that is what you believe. It is not what we believe. We believe Adam and Eve were created in Original Justice and it took a willful turning away from God for them to commit a sin.

Again, you believe so. We believe he had the tendency, so he sinned. Otherwise someone have to force him to do that. None did that.

Ok, that is what you believe. We don’t believe he had the tendency to sin. We believe God created him with the tendency to do good and to love and worship God. However, God gave him free will so the possibility that he might sin was there, but Adam made a willful turning away from God to commit the first sin.

You believe so. And you have your ways to prove Christianity (for the timebeing) and disprove Islam. I have given enough verses from Quran saying man was created to live on earth, not in paradise. You too have no idea, if garden is in earth. But Bible says,

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

"O Adam dwell with your wife in the Garden and enjoy as you wish

Then the Quran must contradict itself. Because here Allah told Adam and Eve to dwell in the Garden . And I have yet to see any Quranic reference from you about Adam and Eve being made to live elsewhere except what I provided where Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden. Others have provided proof that Adam’s punishment extended to all men.

Which clearly proves God made man to rule earth, not the paradise.

Man could easily rule earth from Paradise. Every king rules from a Castle.

Do you reject this verse as well as just imagination of Moses (pbuh)? If not, you are contradicting your self. I say again, as per Quran and Bible, man were created to rule the earth, not paradise.

Again, from the Quran and from the Bible you have been proven wrong. I reject no part of the Bilble. But I understand the Bible and you don’t.

Whilst I know I don’t understand the Quran, I do know that you are tying yourself in knots trying to prove the supposedly simple doctrines which are based upon it.

It is clear I have proven my case that Islamic teaching is false as to its explanation of the Christian doctrine of original sin. And it is self contradictory as to its doctrine that one man can’t be punished for the sin of another (Adam’s sin imputed to all humanity), and self contradictory in its doctrine that Adam was forgiven for sin yet was not restored to Paradise. Also that the Quran obviously states that God told Adam to dwell in the Garden and expelled Adam only after Adam sinned.

So, why not move on to another doctrine. If you are willing we will start another thread, “Where do Muslims say that God lives according to the Quran?”

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Holy people? You already decided that.

Not me. God. I was quoting the Word of God.

 

[Khalfan]

Then Allah lives in you? We Catholics believe that we are temples of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is God. Therefore God is in us? Are you saying then that Allah lives in you since there is no separation between you and God in reality?

We also believe that God is Yahweh. He is Who is. God is He in whom we live, move and are. Do you believe that Allah is He in whom you live, move and are?

If I understand Islamic Theology, your answer to both questions will be “no.” And so, this points to either another error or contradiction in Islam.

As always, you make your own version of Islamic teaching at refute it.

So, what do I mean when I say we are separated from God? Obviously, Adam and Eve, because of their condition of Original Justice in their state of grace could sense God’s presence and even speak to Him directly. But although we believe that God is omnipresent and even within us, very few of us have acquired the ability to perceive God 's presence. Therefore, in our fallen nature, we live in a state of separation from God.

We believe, there is no Adam (pbuh) or his sin or any fallen nature or anything between us and God. If we want to get God, he is right here with us. There is no need of a ransom to sort the problem between me and God. There is no need of a cross or image between us. There is no even Mohamed (pbuh) between me and God. I don’t believe his spirit lives in me but he lives everywhere including me. What I do is not becasue he moves me, but he gives me power to move as I want.

You don’t know the difference between “potential” and “actual”? I suggest you look them up in the dictionary.

This is what the Word of God says about atheists:
Psalms 13
1 … The fool hath said in his heart: There is no God, They are corrupt, and are become abominable in their ways: there is none that doth good, no not one.

If you ally yourself with atheists, that is your business.

Good.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Just tell me what is actual sin. I can’t find my dictionary.

 

[Montalban]

Just tell me what is actual sin. I can’t find my dictionary.

Sin as defined in the dictionary and in the Catholic Encyclopedia

 

[Montalban]

It is about his nature, and we believe he is all powerful. That doesn’t mean he can create another eternal God. Because that is like drawing a circle with corners. It is not about able or unable, but its illogical.

Jesus is not ‘another God’ but God.

 

[Khalfan]

I see this in Catholic Teaching and I see it in the Bible but where is it in the Quran? Please provide the actual text.

Bible:

Matthew 6

15 But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences.

Catechism:
2840 Now - and this is daunting - this outpouring of mercy cannot penetrate our hearts as long as we have not forgiven those who have trespassed against us. Love, like the Body of Christ, is indivisible; we cannot love the God we cannot see if we do not love the brother or sister we do see.136 In refusing to forgive our brothers and sisters, our hearts are closed and their hardness makes them impervious to the Father’s merciful love; but in confessing our sins, our hearts are opened to his grace.

24:22. And let not those among you who are blessed with graces and wealth swear not to give (any sort of help) to their kinsmen, Al-Masâkîn (the poor), and those who left their homes for Allâh’s Cause. **Let them pardon and forgive. Do you not love that Allâh should forgive you? **And Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

No. Jesus sacrifice purchased our participation in our redemption. Without His sacrifice nothing that we did could return us to God’s grace.

See… you believe that. What we believe is, we do the sacrifice that you said. That is enough betweeen me and my God. There is no need of further payment by someone.

Touching fire is not a sin. Misusing a drug is a sin. Using an illegal drug is a sin.

Not unless you are a fool.

Exactly. They are different.

God wants us to use fire to cook and warm ourselves. But some men have found that fire is a good weapon to kill people. They misuse fire.

God wants us to use drugs to heal ourselves. But some use drugs to become drunk. They misuse the drug.

But what makes us approach them again. One who touches fire and is burned is not likely to touch the fire again. He will easily conform to God’s will for him to be safe from the fire.

But he who uses cocaine illegally will be drawn back to it again and again because of the feelings of pleasure he receives. His human will is weaker after he used the drug than it was before he used the drug.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Touching fire or using cocain, both are sin against our body. Fire gives the burn same time but cocain gives the burn in our internal organs slowely. Fire can give us the knowledge it should not be touched quickly. Cocain too can give us the knowledge not to use, if we know what it does inside our body. So, the tendency to sin, or to use drug, or to touch fire gets greater only if we don’t know what can result by that. That is where we have guidence of God. If we have the knowledge, we won’t approch any of it ever unless by accident.

 

[Montalban]

24:22. And let not those among you who are blessed with graces and wealth swear not to give (any sort of help) to their kinsmen, Al-Masâkîn (the poor), and those who left their homes for Allâh’s Cause. **Let them pardon and forgive. Do you not love that Allâh should forgive you? **And Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

That doesn’t mean he’ll forgive everything

4:116
Lo! Allah pardoneth not that partners should be ascribed unto Him.

4:137
Those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will** never **pardon them.

4:168
Those who disbelieve and deal in wrong, Allah will **never forgive **them.

9:80
Ask forgiveness for them (O Muhammad), or ask not forgiveness for them; though thou ask forgiveness for them seventy times Allah will not forgive them. That is because they disbelieved in Allah and His messenger.

47:34
Those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and then die disbelievers, Allah surely will not pardon them.

63:3-6
They believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed so that they understand not. … Whether thou ask forgiveness for them or ask not forgiveness for them is all one for them; Allah will not forgive them

 

[Montalban]

See… you believe that. What we believe is, we do the sacrifice that you said. That is enough betweeen me and my God. There is no need of further payment by someone.

What’s the ‘fire’ you have to pass through?

 

[De_Maria]

We believe, even a single leaf moves by the will of God.

We believe the entire universe is sustained by God and we also believe that we exist in God. God is He in Whom we live, move and are. And the Holy Spirit of God lives in us, our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

What is the Islamic teaching about God and His Creation?

Gen 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.

Seem like you never read it.

Yeah, I did.

John 15:19 19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

So, although we live in the world, the world is not our home. It is not our destination. But I have finally understood that this is another huge difference between Islam and Catholicism.

God made us for Himself. The world was created for man. Not man for the world.

However, Allah created man for the world, to live in the world forever. As I have understood, even the Muslim heaven is the enjoyment of material pleasures, wine and women. So Allah did not make man for Himself.

But from the very beginning, Islam doesn’t teach man were created for paradise. Neither do Bible.

You keep ignoring the teachings which InJesus, Montalban and I have shown you from Islamic sources. And you keep twisting Christian doctrine.

But the truth is true whether you believe it or not.

That is far acceptable than a God who got surprised of the human deeds. Allah knows his creation and its capability. That is his omnipotence.

Then you agree that Allah made man to sin? But you just changed your mind on that in a previous message?

Ok, I have registered your change. You again believe that Allah created man to sin. And when some men sinned, by your admission, Allah led them into hell. This is the consistent position of all Muslims I have spoken to.

Oh and God was never surprised. God knows all.

Did I? We never do that. Do Quran ask that? Did Mohamed (pbuh) asked that? No. Instead, Quran gives us reason to think and know God, which can be acceptable to any layman. Quran dosen’t ask people to wait for the spirit to understand the faith.

But in order to believe the Quran, you must believe that the Quran was revealed to Mohammed by an angel.

As for the simplicity of the Quran which even a layman can understand, well we can see in the world, the Al-Qaida believe that Islam is a religion of war and killing. As does Osama and virtually every Muslim outside of the free world. Yet you and those few Muslims here on this forum keep repeating the mantra of a peaceful Islam. And you all get your Islamic beliefs from the same book, the Quran.

CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D

Isn’t it the same thing you believe, we are seperated from God becasue of the act of Adam (pbuh)?

Are you now saying that Islam teaches the same teaching of Original Sin as the Catholic Church? But you’ve been rejecting that teaching since day 1 as have all Muslms? What are you doing? Is this confusion 101?

Why we have to be separate from God becasue of Adam (pbuh)?

Did Adam speak directly to God? Do you speak directly to God? Then obviously it was because of his sin that we, Christians, are separate from God.

You, on the other hand, have a separate explanation. Allah is simply separate from you because you are unworthy of Him. I believe that is the Islamic teaching. Allah lives elsewhere and is not part of His Creation. Correct me if I’m wrong.

You are suffering on earth becasue of Adam (pbuh). Isn’t that what yuo teach?

That is correct. But not because God punished us for Adam’s sin. Adam lost Original Justice. If Adam had not lost Original Justice we would all be blest with it today.

You can give your own interpretations/imaginations, even new names for it. But the concept is what matters. It is what I was debating with, not the terms you use.

You still have no idea what you are debating. You still equate Adam’s losing the grace God gave Him to God punishing all mankind. And you still claim that Islam doesn’t teach that all mankind was punished by Allah for Adam’s sin but you can’t get away from the fact that you are now suffering the punishment for Adams’ sin since you aren’t in the Garden.

I said, we were not created to live in paradise. It is your own claim my dear. Not even Bible supports that. If you are in making of your own christianity, please go on.

The Bible supports that perfectly. We weren’t made for God and the earth was made for us.

God gave me enough brain to think and recognise facts about me and around me. It may mistake things. But I don’t think, my creater is unaware of my capabilities. I don’t think he do expect 100% perfection from me, since he knows me morethan I do myself. I seek refuge in him. I seek guidence from him. I have that and I follow that as much as possible. I don’t DIE to live in hereafter. But I live and ask for long life, so that I can live here enjoying his blessings and preapare for hereafter.

But you were made for the earth, remember? So there will be a hereafter on earth for you.

Whereas we are made for God, and in the hereafter we will be united to Him. That is truly heaven.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[paarsurrey]

the Al-Qaida believe that Islam is a religion of war and killing. As does Osama and virtually every Muslim outside of the free world. Yet you and those few Muslims here on this forum keep repeating the mantra of a peaceful Islam. And you all get your Islamic beliefs from the same book, the Quran.

Hi

Osama is no representitive of Islam/Quran/Muhammad.

Thanks

 

[De_Maria]

If that is a catholic teaching, then why you were refuting?!!

I was referring to my words, not yours.

Do you mind the readers can understand something from you? I am saying, not even a leaf moves without the will of God, which includes our thoughts and actions as well. But you refute exclusivly the part of our sin.

Correct.

I am asking where we get the ability to do that sin?

From our refusal to do good.

Do you have your own power to do good

The power to do good is from God.

a sin, unless God given it to you?

The power to do evil or to commit sin is from a misuse of the power to do good. God does not will evil. God permits evil in order to bring a greater good from it. God did not give us the power to do sin, we took it.

I think you still have a lot of basic things to learn about God. You were an athiest. right? when did you convert?

Twenty years ago. I think you have many basic things to learn about God because you are still a Muslim.

We too.

Then why did you say God will question you?

I think, you imagined something like a police station or a court, where God is asking question and we are answering. But God will question us, means we will have to stay infront of him on the judgement day answerable to our actions.

Stand in front of him? Is Allah limited that you can stand in front of Him? What do you imagine, that God is a man? Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Many did already.

And so you admit that Allah led them into hell. But I doubt that Atheists who do not believe in Allah would ask anything of Allah, much less that He lead them to hell. So it remains an Islamic contradiction.

InJesus wrote nonesense about that hadees.

He proved that those were Mohammed’s words. You think that simply denying it will erase the record of the message he provided. InJesus provided a record of Mohammed’s words as provided by Muslims. If there was any nonsense there, it was Islamic nonsense.

That is clear from the hadees itself. If those arguments were right or wrong is to be known only on judgement day. Until then, you can’t act like GOD.

God gave me a mind to think and reason. I can see that there was nonsense written in those words of Islamic teaching. That is not acting like God. That is reasoning with the mind that God gave me.

 

[De_Maria]

Hi

Osama is no representitive of Islam/Quran/Muhammad.

Thanks

Yes, he is. As was made clear in a vivid new report by 60 minutes, if he dies, there are thousands more Osamas ready to take his place. Your children are raised up chanting death on America, death to Christians, death to Jews.

Yes, he is.