Islam and Original Sin

[Montalban]

And what does that analogy has anything to do with sin? As I have already said, ‘knew’ doesn’t mean ‘sinned’. Does it?

:yawn: I’m saying that the Bible has particular ways of saying things. Thus instead of (AND THIS IS AN EXAMPLE) saying “He had sex with her” it says “He knew her”

As for they ‘knew they were naked’ it didn’t mean that only then did they suddenly literally realise that they had no clothes on, but that they had sinned. It’s the way the Bible language is put to say that they realised they’d sinned.

It’s very poetic because they were now ‘naked’ in the sense that they’re sin had been exposed.

 

[De_Maria]

How do you know, you are forgiven?

Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins:

John 20
23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

They passed this power on to other men:

2 Timothy 2

2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.

Forgiveness of God is something that happens in his mind and account? How do you know what God is thinking?

God has revealed it through His Son:

Hebrews 1
1 God, who, at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all, 2 In these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world. 1 God, who, at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all, 2 In these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world.

What we Muslims know is the promise of God, if we are sincere in our repentence we will get forgiven. So that we try for the perfection of repentence through keeping away from the sin thereafter, repenting for what has done, follow the law of God thereafter till die, do righteous deeds as much as possible. We do try to be our best till death since we are not certain about our result. If we are certain at a certain point that we are forgiven, we won’t try for perfection anymore. We may keep the law and live a righteous life, but if a mistake happens, we will count it as the first or second sin, since all previous sins were forgiven in the last confession.

You also have confession of sins? To whom do you confess your sins?

Now, imagine two guys in a court. One who were confessed last week and asked the judge to cancel the penalties against the account of someone who paid it for him, and done some mistakes in this week till he confess again. Another man who is worried about his mistakes he did all his life and the penalty he will have to pay for it; especially when he was unable to come to the court for some reason, even once, to know whether he was forgiven or not. Who will be more cautious of doing further sins? Who will be more willing to follow the law of court thereafter? Who will be more thankful to the court (not to the one who paid the penalties) for the promise of forgiveness on conditions? I think it will be the second man who is not sure about if he is forgiven. He will be more cautious about doing further sin as he is not sure about his previous sins. He will be more intersted in following the law of court, since he has to please the judge to get forgiveness confirmed. While the first one will be more thankful to the one who paid the penalties for him (the intercessor), the second man will be thankful straight to the judge.

These are simply the ramblings of your own mind and another indication that you don’t understand Catholic Teaching. Although God has given men the power to forgive sins, they don’t forgive sins in their own name but in God’s name.

It is like a King who sends his messenger to convey an important message. He who receives the message is more thankful to whom, to the King or to the messenger?

Therefore, when we receive the message from the Priest that God has forgiven us, we are more thankful to God. But we are also thankful to the Priest.
CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D

In post 16 you said, women are saved in child birth. In post 34, you said all are saved through Jesus (pbuh).

to be precise, in post 16 I said:

Yes, they are. It is in childbirth that women are saved:

1 Timothy 2
15 Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

If you understood the connection between sacrifice and suffering which Jesus showed us, you will understand why the suffering of childbearing and the sacrifice of motherhood is so important for a woman’s salvation.

Since you don’t understand the relationship of sacrifice and suffering for love’s sake, you think that this contradicts the statement “saved through Jesus”. However, because of their love and their suffering and sacrifice, even to death which women willingly take for their children, they remake themselves in the image of Christ. That is what it means to be saved through Christ:

Galatians 2
20 And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

The **first Question **from Sirajuddin, a Christian:

According to the Christian beliefs, Christ’s mission to come in this world was for Love of the humanity and to offer his Sacrifice for the fellow human being. Was this the mission of the founder of Islam also in the same meaning or not? Could his mission be described in other better words than Love or Sacrifice?

The Response by the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908, continued from my previous post #85:

“The cure of sin and abstention from it lies in falling in love with GodAllahYHWH and adoring it. Hence all the virtuous works done appropriately spring forth from the fountain of love shower water on the fire of sin because with doing good works for GodAllahYHWH one affixes seal of authentication on his love. The belief in God when that becomes one’s first priority over every thing else even to the extent against one’s own self. This is first level of love, and is like state of a tree when it is first planted in the ground. The second level is Istighfar which means one has become distanced from God and one has to endeavor to overcome the human misdemeanor a lot so that one’s filth inside is not exposed. This situation is like a tree when with vigor it spreads its roots in the ground and stands firm on it on its own. And the third state is to focus one’s whole attention on repentance; and this is like the tree when it nears its roots to the water resource and sucks it in like of an infant sucking from the nipples of his mother. This is the philosophy of sin; it originates by distancing from GodAllahYHWH, therefore its cure lies in desisting from this state; which is to fortify contact with God. How non-serious are those irrational humans who consider suicide being a cure of sin, when surely it is not?
This might be a piece of humor; if one wants to show sympathy with someone else who has a severe headache and for that one cracks off one’s own head with a stone? Or with an obsession to save life of others; one commits suicide. Would that individual be considered a sane person? To me it would be hard to find one; there cannot be a rational person in this world who would consider such suicide an example of being merciful with the humans. No doubt human love or kindness is praise worthy thing and to bear hardship or to suffer for others is the symbol of courageous men indeed. But aren’t there other rational ways for doing such hard jobs what is told of Jesus. Alas if Jesus would have saved himself from the suicide; and for comfort of others he would have adopted rational ways for suffering for others like men of wisdom. Thus the world would have much benefited from his person. For example there is some poor fellow who needs a house to live in and he can hardly afford to employ a mason to build his house and it happens that some mason becomes kind on him and gets busy building his house without any remuneration, in few days hard labor and struggle the mason builds house for the poor. This mason would be indeed a very praise worthy person. And no doubt he has done kindness on this poor fellow and needy and built his house. But if that mason perishes his own head with a stone to show kindness to the poor fellow of what benefit this action is for that poor fellow. Alas! There are very few people in this world who perform acts of virtue or kindness treading on paths of rationality. If it is true that Jesus with this thought in mind opted for death for larger benefit of saving the people and for that very purpose indeed he committed a suicide; then Jesus’ condition is quite deplorable and this is not an event worth mentioning before others but it is worth concealing.
And if we judge this principle of the Christians with the true meaning of curse, which has been in fact proposed for Jesus, we would sorrowfully say by making this one principle Christians have done blasphemy that has not been done or thought of by any nation in the world to his ProphetMessenger. Because burdening Jesus with curse though for three days only; it is in the belief of the Christians and if Jesus is not made a cursed person then all Christian concepts of redemption, atonement and sacrifice etc become untrue. The backbone or pillar of this entire belief is curse.”
Unquote

Thanks

 

[De_Maria]

Cont…
But KJV has 66 books only in it,

All 66 books were canonized by the Catholic Church. Luther removed 7 books because they contained material with which he disagreed.

while catholics do believe in 77 books, right?

Will you reject it if you find further mistakes in it?

Of course.

Which version you think, no christins have any problem with (neither catholics nor protestents)?

I don’t go by that criteria. I use the KJV when I discuss religion with Protestants because that is what they mainly accept. Otherwise, I use the Douay because it is my favorite.

But that doesn’t give you the right to misquote something out of context.

If anyone misquoted it, it was the Muslim whom I quoted. As I said before, I only pass on what I’ve learned from Muslims about the Quran. Its not my fault that Muslims constantly contradict each other.

I couldn’t find the answer in that post, so I ask again.

Did Adam and Eve repent for their sin?

Yes.

If they did, in what state they were then? Once they were forgiven as you said below, in what state they were then?

Fallen.

If they were still seperated from God,

Yes.

with the fallen nature, what is the effect that forgiveness of God made in them?

They were prepared for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross whose graces poured out through the whole of eternity to cleanse the sins of all those who died in repentance and longing for God.

But we don’t repair the windows, rather we replace it with a new one. Can’t God do that with our sin?

1. We are talking about fallen nature, not about sin.
2. God can do anything.
3. But God has chosen to make us participate in our salvation.
4. Therefore, since Adam and Eve gave away the grace with which they were born, they couldn’t pass it on to their and their children must earn it if they want it.
5. That requries a persistent act of will…

If not, what does mean by forgiveness?

Are you talking about fallen nature or sin?

Adam and Eve were forgiven for their sin of disobedience. But they gave away their grace. If your father gives you $1000 to put in the bank and you go and gamble it away. Your father would be mad, but he might forgive you. But the money is still lost. Either you or your father will have to earn it back.

Therefore Adam and Eve’s sin was forgiven, but the grace with which they were born remained lost, their nature remained fallen.

Forgiveness is to cancel the debts and to replace the status as it was before the event that debt resulted. Isn’t it?

Nope. God treats us like adults living in real life. He doesn’t treat us like children in a fantasy.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

We do believe God is all powerful. He can do anything he want. But that doesn’t mean he will sin. I am talking about his ability, not what he do and don’t. He don’t do unholy things as he is Good from eternity.

We believe there are some things God can’t do. God can’t create another God equal or greater than Himself. God can’t contradict Himself because He can’t make mistakes. And God can’t do anything evil because He is all good.

Sense to whom? to Muslims or Christians? Christians don’t believe in any verse in the Quran as of God. For Muslims, all the verses are from God. We don’t believe in any Satanic verses or Abrogated verses.

To which sect of Islam do you belong?
INTRODUCTION
The abrogation of Quranic verses, arguably the greatest lie against the Quran, was originally invented during the fourth century A.H. (late 10th century A.D.) by some Muslim scholars notably Ahmed Bin Ishaq Al-Dinary (died 318 A.H.), Mohamad Bin Bahr Al-Asbahany (died 322 A.H.), Hebat Allah Bin Salamah (died 410 A.H.) and Mohamad Bin Mousa Al-Hazmy (died 548 A.H.), whose book about Al-Nasekh and Al-Mansoukh is regarded as one of the leading references in the subject.

submission.org/abrogation.html

Apparently some Muslims do and some don’t. Most of the Muslims with which I’ve spoken have mentioned abrogation of the privilege to consume alcohol. None, except you have ever denied it. I knew of the controversy from reading articles on the Internet however.

So, you don’t believe in any of those verses as happened in reality, is that right?

I believe the Quran is a mixture of Mohammed’s lies and actual history which can’t be denied. But I don’t believe that any angel of God appeared to Mohammed. And I know that neither Mohammed nor any Muslim since can prove that any supernatural being, angel or otherwise, appeared to Mohammed.

Do you say whatever ‘Moses’ wrote was his own imaginations?

Moses proved his mission was of God by the miracles which God performed through him and by the witnesses who also saw God, in the cloud and in the mountain and in the tent whenever God went to speak to Moses there.

Why would God destroy man for their sin, didn’t God know man gonna sin?

God does not destroy man unjustly. God has given man a choice. life or death. If they choose death, then God’s judgement is just.

Deuteronomy 30
19 I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Didn’t he know the other way out, like the atonement of animals or someone like ‘Jesus’?

That only applies to those who willingly repent.

Why God decided, those people will have to pay themself for thier sins, by dying in the flood?

I don’t question God. If God decided they had to die, then God must have had good reason.

But if you are asking whether God had the right to take their life, then I tell you that our lives are not our own. We belong to God and God can call us to judgement whenever He wills:

Luke 12
16 And he spoke a similitude to them, saying: The land of a certain rich man brought forth plenty of fruits. 17 And he thought within himself, saying: What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? 18 And he said: This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and will build greater; and into them will I gather all things that are grown to me, and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul: Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years take thy rest; eat, drink, make good cheer. 20 But God said to him: Thou fool, this night do they require thy soul of thee: and whose shall those things be which thou hast provided?

God gives and God takes away.

Why the atonement of ‘Jesus’ didn’t help them?

Because they didn’t repent.

Didn’t God plan the cross event before the flood?

Yes. The Cross event helped Adam and Eve, and all those of the line of Seth before and after Noah who repented of their sins. I don’t think anyone of the line of Cain ever repented of their sins so they were lost.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Then why the sin of man, made God to make a flood on earth to kill all the sinners? Wasn’t that God got controled with our wickedness? You are contradicting yoursefl.

No. I don’t see any contradiction at all. You seem to think that God permitting someone to die means that God doesn’t love that person. Yet God permits the good and the bad to die.

Luke 13
1 And there were present, at that very time, some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answering, said to them: Think you that these Galileans were sinners above all the men of Galilee, because they suffered such things? 3 No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen upon whom the tower fell in Siloe, and slew them: think you, that they also were debtors above all the men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 No, I say to you; but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

But did that UNFALLEN nature of Adam and Eve helped them in not committing sin? If not, what is the difference in fallen or unfallen nature, since the effect is the same?

The effect is not exactly the same. We have less culpability than Adam and Eve. That is why a seemingly minor sin in Adam and Eve was of such major consequence. Because they had every advantage.

Luke 12
48 But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.

I said, ‘were they prone to sin (more or less), are we prone to sin (more or less) is the discussion’, and you agreed they were prone to sin, but less than us

No, if I used the word “prone”, I was mistaken. But I don’t remember using the word “prone” so if you claim that I did please point to the message where I did.

However I see where you used the word prone and I contradicted you:

See message #92
You said :

Were they prone to sin (more or less), are we prone to sin (more or less) is the discussion, and I say all we are including Adam and Eve (pbut).

I retorted:

You say? And who are you? I am comparing the erroneous doctrines of Islam to the Truth of the Catholic Church.

I said there was a potential. Potential doesn’t mean prone. Obviously you have some trouble with the nuances of English. Adam and Eve did not have a “tendency” to sin. We do. We are prone to sin.

. If that doctrine of Islam, that all we are including Adam and Eve, prone to sin (more or less), is erroneous then you are disproving your own catholic doctrine my dear.

Nope. You are either twisting what I said intentionally or you don’t understand the difference between the word “potential” and the word “prone”. Potential means possible. Prone means probable.

I have given you enough evidence from Quran,

No you haven’t. I have proved that Adam and Eve were created by Allah to live in Paradise from the Quran. I proved that Allah ejected Adam and Eve from Paradise as punishment for their sin, from the Quran.

It is obvious that if Allah evicted Adam and Eve from Paradise, He created them for Paradise.

for what Islam teaches about that.

Is contradictory in more than one way. As I have proven, Islam contradicts itself even in their contradiction of Original Sin.

We are supposed to live on earth accrding to Quran and Bible.

No. In both, God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden. In both, Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden after they sinned. The facts are plain.
CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D

Otherwise God wouldn’t create earth as it is now.

God didn’t create earth as it is now. You can look at history and see that man has affected adversely the nature of earth since his arrival upon earth.

We both agree that God created earth before he created man.

That is true. But earth was not made for man to live in, but for man to protect. Man was made to live in Paradise, in the Garden which God made as a temple which Adam would till and keep and thus offer a living sacrifice of love to God. Thus Adam and Eve would protect the earth and all that lived in it.

If you don’t want to accept your own agreements, and still want to hang on to the contradiction claim, I am sorry.

Fallen nature or inheritence of sin Again, we don’t believe in inheritence of sin.

because of Adam and Eve, is what Islam don’t agree with, since we believe, they were repented and forgiven. I think, you too agreed that, they were forgiven. If you still want to hang on to the error claim, I am sorry.

You said that when God forgives everything is restored. Why then were Adam and Eve not permitted back into Eden? Again, Islamic teaching contradicts itself.

Islam teaches God made man with the ability for both to love him and to sin against him. Have a look around, you can realise it.

That is the vast difference between Allah and God. God didn’t make man to sin. Obviously Allah is like the unethical worker who makes something defective so he can fix it.

Islam teaches, there is nothing as expiatory nature of suffering but the existence of the law of of nature -cause and effect. You were an athiest, right? How did you get into these kind of imaginery concepts rather than practical evidence and reasonings? We muslims like athiests, becasue they think a lot than any religious man. They use to hold more on to the logical reasonings than believing in myth.

That is true. Atheists and Muslims have much in common. Except one thing. Don’t ask an atheist to believe that Mohammed saw an angel without proof.

And that is what exactly Islam proposes -logical reasoning. Did you? May be

.

No. Islam, as has been shown over and over in this thread, is PRONE to illogical thinking.

Look at the very first premise. You expect people to believe that Mohammed saw an angel and received from him a revelation. And you expect this belief without any proof. That is illogical.

Look at the subject at hand. You don’t know the true Christian doctrine of Original Sin. But you object to it on the basis that no person is punished for another’s sin. And the solution you prescribe is the Islamic version of Adam and Eve’s expulsion from Eden to which their children were not admitted. Obviously then, their children were also punished for Adam and Eve’s sin.

Then you claim that forgiveness of sin puts restores everything to how it used to be. Therefore, you say, Yahweh should have restored the fallen nature of Adam and Eve in the Bible. Yet, although you admit that Allah forgave Adam and Eve in the Quran, I don’t see a restoration of Adam and Eve to the Garden.

So, the fact is clear. You are so accustomed to contradiction that you can’t even recognize it.

See… you want to prove your point, so you hold to any words you think fits for you. I was proving the natural cause and effect side of our deeds, and you took it for spiritual level and effects. Read the post again, take some time, and think. You will understand what I was saying.

And you have proven that you have much in common with atheists:

1 Corinthians 2
14 But the sensual man perceiveth not these things that are of the Spirit of God; for it is foolishness to him, and he cannot understand, because it is spiritually examined.

Atheists believe only what they perceive through their senses. Therefore, since you have much in common with them, you can’t perceive the spiritual elements even in the things you brought up.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Montalban]

Now one Moslem (paarsurrey) resorts to making up posters (Sirajuddin) to respond to

 

[De_Maria]

Islam doesn’t teach Allah leads men to hell, but he do when WE WANT IT TO BE SO.

Excellent point of departure between Islam and Catholicism!

God, Yahweh, never leads men to hell. He does not interfere with their free will if they want to go to hell themselves. But God does not lead them there.

Allah, as Khalfan has reiterated over and over, will lead men to hell when they want to go. Now the way that men go to hell is by committing evil upon others. There is no road to hell which one walks and finds. So, in order for Allah to lead men to hell, he must lead them to commit evil upon others that they might commit the most heinous evil upon themselves, the destruction of their souls…

Where do you think we are getting the ability and power to do sin? We believe, even a leaf cannot move without the will of God.

And there you go again. God, Yahweh, permits men to commit evil that He may bring good from it. But God, Yahweh, does not lead them to commit evil.

Apparently, Allah does, at least according to Khalfan.

God gave us the free will to choose our deeds. But even the power to use our free will, is from God.

That is Catholic teaching.

We believe, God will question us for each and every power/ability he gave us,

You believe God will question you? Doesn’t He know?

We believe in God’s omniscience.

how we used it and misused it. If we choose to be guided by God, he will help us for that also, but not unless and until WE SEEK to be guided. Clear?

Transparently.

Here is another error in Islamic doctrine. As Khalfan has continuously said, Allah leads those who want to go to hell. Now, he says they must seek guidance from Allah. Allah will not guide them anywhere unless they seek to be guided. How many Atheists will seek guidance from Allah?

This is an illogical, poorly thought out doctrine. An error. But it is typical of Islamic Theology.

What he wrote is nonsense. We both know, in reality, Adam (pbuh) never met Moses (pbuh) since he lived long after Adam (pbuh).

T

What this Muslim wrote is nonsense? Aren’t these words attributed to Mohammed?

his converstaion is in their after life, they argue each other about thier deeds and the judgement of their deeds will be known only on judgementday. Then only we will know, who was better in the eyes of God.

Then you are saying that Adam’s sin was not preordained by Allah? Yet those are the plain words of that reference.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Both verses talkes about the preistly proclamations God’s forgiveness etc. Even in pagan Arabs, their preists use to work as the agent of their God. Second verse explicitly states about the atonements that cannot help in the sins of any man.

Intercessors meant here is, those mediators between God and people, who were even confirming the forgiveness of God. Islam doesn’t allow those proclamations and mediators/agents. But it doesn’t stop anyone to pray for others. As I have already said, the acceptence and rejection is to be done by God, no man on earth can confirm it for God. We believe, all the prophets prayed for others and did many miracle works for others. None of them claimed it to be their own power but of God, including Jesus (pbuh).

Again, this highlights the Muslims deplorable understanding of Catholic teaching. Did you not know that we are the New Israel, a nation of Priests, a Holy People?

Exodus 19
6 And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation. Those are the words thou shalt speak to the children of Israel.

1 Peter 2

9 But you are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

You explained a thoelogy, not the reality. We believe in reality. There is no seperaton between us and God.

Then Allah lives in you? We Catholics believe that we are temples of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is God. Therefore God is in us? Are you saying then that Allah lives in you since there is no separation between you and God in reality?

We also believe that God is Yahweh. He is Who is. God is He in whom we live, move and are. Do you believe that Allah is He in whom you live, move and are?

If I understand Islamic Theology, your answer to both questions will be “no.” And so, this points to either another error or contradiction in Islam.

So, what do I mean when I say we are separated from God? Obviously, Adam and Eve, because of their condition of Original Justice in their state of grace could sense God’s presence and even speak to Him directly. But although we believe that God is omnipresent and even within us, very few of us have acquired the ability to perceive God 's presence. Therefore, in our fallen nature, we live in a state of separation from God.

What is that mean? Is there an imaginery sin as well in your theology?

You don’t know the difference between “potential” and “actual”? I suggest you look them up in the dictionary.

You are explaining your point of view. I have my own wich is more logical and reasonable to any, even athiest.

This is what the Word of God says about atheists:
Psalms 13
1 … The fool hath said in his heart: There is no God, They are corrupt, and are become abominable in their ways: there is none that doth good, no not one.

If you ally yourself with atheists, that is your business.

I can agree with you.

Good.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

It is exactly so. But in Islam, human realtion and problems should be resolved between humans itself before we go to God. God will not forgive us if we weren’t forgiven by the wictim we sinned against.

I see this in Catholic Teaching and I see it in the Bible but where is it in the Quran? Please provide the actual text.

Bible:

Matthew 6

15 But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences.

Catechism:
2840 Now - and this is daunting - this outpouring of mercy cannot penetrate our hearts as long as we have not forgiven those who have trespassed against us. Love, like the Body of Christ, is indivisible; we cannot love the God we cannot see if we do not love the brother or sister we do see.136 In refusing to forgive our brothers and sisters, our hearts are closed and their hardness makes them impervious to the Father’s merciful love; but in confessing our sins, our hearts are opened to his grace.

God will decide that. But what we have to do here to get forgiven by wictim that we sinned against, is to be done. The payment can only be cancelled by the wictim even if the case is in the Islamic court.

If we sincerely repent, God will forgive. A human being who does not forgive us does not hold God hostage. In fact, he who does not forgive the sincere repentant will have more to worry about than the sincere repentant.

The sacrifice I meant is the compensation we do for the wictim, to get forgiven by him. What you do as sacrifice?

We live our lives according to the will of God. We, renounce our will and live by God’s will.

If you have to sacrifice yourself, was the sacrifice of God useless?

No. Jesus sacrifice purchased our participation in our redemption. Without His sacrifice nothing that we did could return us to God’s grace.

Now, that’s about a drug. What about touching the fire?

Touching fire is not a sin. Misusing a drug is a sin. Using an illegal drug is a sin.

Will you have greater potential to touch fire?

Not unless you are a fool.

My dear, it is about the nature of drug and fire.

Exactly. They are different.

God wants us to use fire to cook and warm ourselves. But some men have found that fire is a good weapon to kill people. They misuse fire.

God wants us to use drugs to heal ourselves. But some use drugs to become drunk. They misuse the drug.

What makes us to approch both is our free will and choice, which all of us have in us as it had in Adam and Eve (pbut).

But what makes us approach them again. One who touches fire and is burned is not likely to touch the fire again. He will easily conform to God’s will for him to be safe from the fire.

But he who uses cocaine illegally will be drawn back to it again and again because of the feelings of pleasure he receives. His human will is weaker after he used the drug than it was before he used the drug.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

You are trying to give the impression that Islam says God created man to SIN ONLY. Islam teaches, God created man with the ability to sin as well as to love God.

See… you keep on claiming the same thing.

No, but I am emphasizing that point. You see if Islam teaches that, among other things, Allah created man to sin. That is an evil action. Creating man with the intent that man will sin is an evil action committed by Allah.

God created man with the ability to sin as well.

That is evil. Catholicism does not teach that.

He wanted us to choose good from bad. He gave guidence and gave us free will. Now, their is a common saying ‘we learn from mistakes’. This is what God too wanted us to do. God doesn’t worry about our mistakes since none our deed can touch his holyness. But he interested more in those repenters, who do return to God, accepting his holyness. This is what Jesus (pbuh) too taught in a story of two sons and a father (Lk 15:11-32). As father was so happy in returned lost son, God becomes happy to see repented sinner. In this context, what you said is correct.

In this paragraph you moved from explaining the Islamic teaching that God created man to sin, which is contrary to Catholic Teaching, to explaining that a repentant sinner will be forgiven, which is true in Catholicism.

Again, it is theology. I have better reasonings and explanations.

You speak of Theology as though you belittle it. As though yo think your reasonings and explanations are better than the “knowledge of God” or the “Word of God”. Did you not know that is what Theology means?

We don’t know our future. This act of God, practice of forgiveness gives us the reason and hope for life. That is my theology, you don’t have to agree.

Of course I agree with Catholic teaching. We also hope in God.

1 Timothy 4
10 For therefore we labor and are reviled, because we hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of the faithful.

And I believe that Muslims are looking for the same thing, but they search in the shadows:

**843 **The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”

Please correct… Someone with the ability to Sin as well.

And so, there is no doubt that I have presented Islam’s theology in this matter faithfully and according to your own understanding. That makes Allah a purveyor of evil. He provides for the evil (sin) of man.

On the contrary, Catholicism teaches that there is no flaw in God. God is all good.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Hi

The **first Question **from Sirajuddin, a Christian:

According to the Christian beliefs, Christ’s mission to come in this world was for Love of the humanity and to offer his Sacrifice for the fellow human being. Was this the mission of the founder of Islam also in the same meaning or not? Could his mission be described in other better words than Love or Sacrifice?

The Response by the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908, continued from my previous post #85:

“The cure of sin and abstention from it lies in falling in love with GodAllahYHWH and adoring it.

That is Catholic Teaching.

Hence all the virtuous works done appropriately spring forth from the fountain of love shower water on the fire of sin because with doing good works for GodAllahYHWH one affixes seal of authentication on his love.

This sounds exactly like Christian doctrine? Is anyone else reading this? Obviously this fellow is trying to mix Christian doctrine in his Islamic theology.

Where does the Quran say any of this?

The belief in God when that becomes one’s first priority over every thing else even to the extent against one’s own self.

And Christ said, “deny yourself and follow me.”

This is first level of love, and is like state of a tree when it is first planted in the ground. The second level is Istighfar which means one has become distanced from God and one has to endeavor to overcome the human misdemeanor a lot so that one’s filth inside is not exposed.

I don’t really understand this portion. But it appears to depart from Christianity.

This situation is like a tree when with vigor it spreads its roots in the ground and stands firm on it on its own. And the third state is to focus one’s whole attention on repentance; and this is like the tree when it nears its roots to the water resource and sucks it in like of an infant sucking from the nipples of his mother.

I have no idea what you mean. For us, God is our salvation and we focus on Him.

This is the philosophy of sin; it originates by distancing from GodAllahYHWH,

You mean separating from God?

therefore its cure lies in desisting from this state; which is to fortify contact with God.

Cathlic teaching.

How non-serious are those irrational humans who consider suicide being a cure of sin, when surely it is not?

Are there such?

This might be a piece of humor; if one wants to show sympathy with someone else who has a severe headache and for that one cracks off one’s own head with a stone? Or with an obsession to save life of others; one commits suicide.

So you don’t believe that men should risk their lives to save others? Or are you making some other point.

To lay down one’s life for another, which is Christian doctrine, is not to commit suicide. It is to risk one’s life and willingly accept even death for the life of another. This is the ultmate expression.

Would you not give your life to save your loved one, your mother, father, sister, brother, wife, son or daughter? If Islam teaches so, then Islam is worse than I thought it was.

Would that individual be considered a sane person?

Yes, thiose who lay down their lives for those they love are very sane.

CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D

To me it would be hard to find one; there cannot be a rational person in this world who would consider such suicide an example of being merciful with the humans. No doubt human love or kindness is praise worthy thing and to bear hardship or to suffer for others is the symbol of courageous men indeed. But aren’t there other rational ways for doing such hard jobs what is told of Jesus. Alas if Jesus would have saved himself from the suicide; and for comfort of others he would have adopted rational ways for suffering for others like men of wisdom. Thus the world would have much benefited from his person.

It is obvious that you don’t understand love at all. That is why you don’t understand Jesus, who is love incarnate.

For example there is some poor fellow who needs a house to live in and he can hardly afford to employ a mason to build his house and it happens that some mason becomes kind on him and gets busy building his house without any remuneration, in few days hard labor and struggle the mason builds house for the poor. This mason would be indeed a very praise worthy person. And no doubt he has done kindness on this poor fellow and needy and built his house. But if that mason perishes his own head with a stone to show kindness to the poor fellow of what benefit this action is for that poor fellow. Alas!

Oh, I get it. You don’t understand Jesus death on the Cross. That’s because you forgot the Resurrection or perhaps because you don’t believe in the Resurrection. You also think that Jesus is no longer here with us, because you don’t understand Catholic Teaching at all.

Well, let me begin to teach you:

1. Whenever two are gathered in His Name, there He is amongst us.
2. He has not left us orphans. He has sent the Holy Spirit to remind us of all He taught.
3. He has left His Body and Blood in the Holy Eucharist.
4. He is with those who love Him and obey His commands.
5. The Church is the Body of Christ.
6. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ.

So, remember, Christ dies and in three days Rose from the dead. Thus proving His mastery over every physical ailment including the ultimate physical ailment, death.

There are very few people in this world who perform acts of virtue or kindness treading on paths of rationality. If it is true that Jesus with this thought in mind opted for death for larger benefit of saving the people and for that very purpose indeed he committed a suicide; then Jesus’ condition is quite deplorable and this is not an event worth mentioning before others but it is worth concealing.

That is precisely what the Word of God says that people like you would say. That is why we don’t hide it but preach it to the entire world from the very rooftops. We preach Christ crucified. A stumbling block to Jews, Muslims and unbelievers, but the cornerstone of our faith and love for God. That God would send His only begotten Son to die for our sins and to conquer death so that we might live in His Presence for eternity. This is Love. And God is Love. Something which you or your Promised Messiah will never understand until you fall in love with God.

And if we judge this principle of the Christians with the true meaning of curse, which has been in fact proposed for Jesus, we would sorrowfully say by making this one principle Christians have done blasphemy that has not been done or thought of by any nation in the world to his ProphetMessenger. Because burdening Jesus with curse though for three days only; it is in the belief of the Christians and if Jesus is not made a cursed person then all Christian concepts of redemption, atonement and sacrifice etc become untrue. The backbone or pillar of this entire belief is curse.”

Isn’t it marvelous that God can turn evil to good. The instrument of death, the Cross, is now an image of hope. The curse which we had on our nature, Jesus took them and turned them to blessing. Only God can do this.

Thanks

You are welcome. I am happy that you are participating and thus showing the difference between Islam as you practice it and believe it and true Christianity.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Khalfan]

oh my…and what did i say in my post? didn’t i say that Adam’s argument is better according to Allah/Muhammad? DIDN’T i say that?

but why is it better? is it because Adam did NOT do it? is it because Moses got things wrong? NOOO, it is because Adam did it but Moses is supposed not blame Adam who is pre-destinated . Understand or not yet?

Again,

Book 46, Number 46.1.1:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu’z-Zinad from al-Araj from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Adam and Musa argued and Adam got the better of Musa. Musa rebuked Adam, ‘You are Adam who led people astray and brought them out of the Garden.’ Adam said to him, ‘You are Musa to whom Allah gave knowledge of everything and whom he chose above people with His message.’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Do you then censure me for a matter which was decreed for me before I was created?’

to paraphrase it : yes i did lead people astray but are you blaming me for a matter i was pre-destined to do?

in other words, don’t blame me for what i DID because i am predestined.

I dont know how else to explain what is obvious.

I don’t believe it. Is it that hard to understand???

My dear friend,

How old are you? I think, I can make you understand better if I know your age.

NOWHERE, I mean NOWHERE, Mohamed (pbuh) says Adam (pbuh) was right or Moses (pbuh) was right, but THE ARGUMENT, I mean THE ARGUMENT of Adam (pbuh) was better. THAT DOESN’T MEAN, I mean THAT DOESN’T MEAN, Moses (pbuh) was WRONG in the court of GOD. According to Quran, about the same issue, God said, he considered it as a sin and he forgave Adam (pbuh). It is not neseccery that, Adam and Moses (pbut) knew, God forgave Adam (pbuh). They can keep arguing till end of days. God is the final judge. God will announce his decision ONLY on the judgement day.

But I can undersatnd you. You want to see if you can get any support for your anti Islamic-clam (that Adam (pbuh) was predestined) or Christian doctrain of inheritence of sin (from the argument of Moses (pbuh)). But words of prophet (pbuh) doesn’t give any chance to you.

 

[Khalfan]

:yawn: I’m saying that the Bible has particular ways of saying things. Thus instead of (AND THIS IS AN EXAMPLE) saying “He had sex with her” it says “He knew her”

As for they ‘knew they were naked’ it didn’t mean that only then did they suddenly literally realise that they had no clothes on, but that they had sinned. It’s the way the Bible language is put to say that they realised they’d sinned.

It’s very poetic because they were now ‘naked’ in the sense that they’re sin had been exposed.

So, you are translating it as it will match your beliefs. It can be reasonable to you, but for me, knowledge means knowledge, not an apple.

 

[inJESUS]

I don’t believe it. Is it that hard to understand???

you dont believe what?

NOWHERE, I mean NOWHERE, Mohamed (pbuh) says Adam (pbuh) was right or Moses (pbuh) was right, but THE ARGUMENT, I mean THE ARGUMENT of Adam (pbuh) was better.

 

[Khalfan]

Not only that, but you and every Muslim I’ve ever talked to say that Allah created man so that man would sin. That is the difference between Islam and Catholicism.

God created man to worship Him and not to sin. Man decided to sin on his own.

Allah created man to sin so that He could guide Him where He wanted to. He created the evil for hell and the good for heaven.

Is that correct or not?

God didn’t create evil. Evil is the doings against God’s law and Satan did it first. Hell is for the evil doers.

Here’s the difference. Allah intended for man to sin so He created man with the potential to sin or more specifically with the ability to sin perhaps even the desire to sin.

On the other hand, God made man for Himself. He did not create man to sin. He created man to love and worship Hiim. But love can’t be coerced. So God gave man free will so that man might freely choose to love Him.

It is a matter of intent. God did not intend for man to sin. Allah did.

Allah didn’t wanted man to sin. That is your interpretation. It is about free will and choice. Since God is omnipotent he knows man will do mistake, man will commit sin. So, he offers us his forgiveness in advance but on the condition of repentence.

Because He wanted man to freely choose NOT to sin.

NO! God does not want us to sin, ever.

God is omniscient. He knows how many will sin.

No. The problem is with Islamic doctrine. It makes no sense that a perfect being who loves perfectly should create someone to sin.

It makes no sense that this perfect being who is all good should lead anyone to hell.

God does not want us to sin, but he knows, we will sin.