Islam and Original Sin

[De_Maria]

CONT’D

It is a later developed answer to the question,

Apparently you have not heard of the doctrine of the Development of Doctrine.

Did ‘Jesus’ die for the sin of the world? Did he die for all our sins? So they developed it as,

God created man perfectly so that they would remain perfect if they so willed. Man introduced imperfection into his own nature. Jesus took this burden on Himself because He loves us.

Adam’s sin seperated all of us from God. Cross event gave us the oppotunity to get back to God.

But to believe in that, 1) The sacrifice of an unwilling person could pay for your sins.

Jesus was more than willing. It is why He came into the world:

Matthew 16
21 From that time Jesus began to shew to his disciples, that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the ancients and scribes and chief priests, and be put to death, and the third day rise again. 22 And Peter taking him, began to rebuke him, saying: Lord, be it far from thee, this shall not be unto thee. 23 Who turning, said to Peter: Go behind me, Satan, thou art a scandal unto me: because thou savourest not the things that are of God, but the things that are of men. 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For he that will save his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall find it.

1. You have to reject what God himself taught in Ezekiel 18.

Obviously, you don’t understand what God taught in Ezekiel 18. That is why you twist it and make it contradict what God taught everywhere else in the Bible:

Exodus 23

5 If thou see the *** of him that hateth thee lie underneath his burden, thou shalt not pass by, but shalt lift him up with him.

Numbers 11

17 That I may come down and speak with thee: and I will take of thy spirit, and will give to them, that they may bear with thee the burden of the people, and thou mayest not be burthened alone.

Romans 12

1 I BESEECH you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service.

Hebrews 9

26 For then he ought to have suffered often from the beginning of the world: but now once at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin, by the sacrifice of himself.

1. You have to compromise with illogical statements as ‘You are saved’ but still ‘your deeds are counted’ which in effect says you are not saved till death. If you were unable to fulfill the will of God, you will have to pay for it yourself (God wants payment for your sins, but second time).

Not so. There is no compromise. Nor are the statements illogical. Sometimes an idea is completely developed here, sometimes only partially developed there. However, if you read the entire Scriptures, you will see the entire idea. Apparently, your Quran must be written so that every idea is completely developed in each sentence. No wonder it can’t be understood.

Here is how we understand the Bible:
111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. “Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written.” The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.

Obviously, then, you will never understand Scripture since you read it in the light of the Quran and Mohammed.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Ditto.

Are we dying because of the fallen nature?

Yes. We were meant for eternal life.

How do you measure our weakness and their strength?

For one thing, Adam lived a very long time:

Genesis 5
5 And all the time that Adam lived came to nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.

How did you come to such a conclusion? Sin is Sin even in a strong nature or weak. Righteousness too is the same. Wheather we do it or Adam (pbuh) doesn’t make any difference.

Again, you show both the weakness of Islamic doctrine and the your lack of knowledge of Christian doctrine:

**1859 **Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

**1854 **Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture, became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.

You do agree, they had the potential to sin since beginning, but refute my statements which imply the same concept.

1. I agree they had the potential to sin.
2. But the potential to sin is not actual sin. That is what I refute.

I have already said, plain text reading can give you wrong ideas. I don’t believe God will shave someones leg with a HIRED razer. Becasue I know, the writer must have meant something else. I expect the same logic from you too.

Again, I am sorry to say it, but Muslims contradict each other and themselves. I quoted an Islamic website and their explanation of the Quran. Why is your explanation better than theirs?

I can understand. That is why God was surprisd of the wickedness of Man. Why God created earth?

God created everything out of love.

Any further assumptions?

Since you ask, if you understood that the Garden of Eden is a symbol of the Heavenly Temple, you would see that Adam was created as High Priest to give perpetual worship to God. In so doing, Adam would protect and safeguard the earth and everything in it. This is why the Mass, the Liturgy of the People of God is so important.

According to you, earth is not the place for you.

Correct. We live on the earth, but we are not part of this earth. God created us for Himself.

Whatever you will see around you, will be uncomfortable.

Where do you live? Do you have air conditioning in the summer and heating in the winter? Can you walk into any forest and eat of any tree? If you say so, I won’t believe you. Man is born to struggle on this earth. Perhaps you can explain the concept of struggle.

But for me, I know earth is the only known place where I can survive in the universe.

As for me, I look forward to the time when I will be united to God and see Him face to face. For to us, God is our very life.

1 Corinthians 13
12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know I part; but then I shall know even as I am known.

2 Corinthians 5

8 But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[inJESUS]

Even I imagine, if Adam wasn’t sinned, and we are living in the garden… But that’s not the reality. Moses (pbuh) too is rebooking Adam (pbuh) but that wasn’t the reality.

what’s not real in this?:

‘You are **Adam who led people astray and brought them out of the Garden.’ **

Quote:
"And I free not myself (from the blame). Verily, the (human) self is inclined to evil, except when my Lord bestows His Mercy… Sura Yussef aya 53

Yousuf (pbuh) talking about the potential of sin exist in all of us.

THIS is the original sin.

This is the true teaching of Islam. The other verse too says the same. That verse reminds us about our responsibility of the sin -misleading people. That sin countinueses even if we die. As far as that sin, that I DID exists, share of the punishment too will come to me

so you do bear the consequence of someone else’s sin, don’t you?

and doesnt the hadith say that Adam led people astray? in what sense did Adam lead people astray? why was Moses blaming Adam if Adam did nothing?

 

[Khalfan]

Not really. I know, when I go to confession, that I’ve been forgiven. Do you know when you’ve been forgiven?

How do you know, you are forgiven? Forgiveness of God is something that happens in his mind and account? How do you know what God is thinking?

What we Muslims know is the promise of God, if we are sincere in our repentence we will get forgiven. So that we try for the perfection of repentence through keeping away from the sin thereafter, repenting for what has done, follow the law of God thereafter till die, do righteous deeds as much as possible. We do try to be our best till death since we are not certain about our result. If we are certain at a certain point that we are forgiven, we won’t try for perfection anymore. We may keep the law and live a righteous life, but if a mistake happens, we will count it as the first or second sin, since all previous sins were forgiven in the last confession. Now, imagine two guys in a court. One who were confessed last week and asked the judge to cancel the penalties against the account of someone who paid it for him, and done some mistakes in this week till he confess again. Another man who is worried about his mistakes he did all his life and the penalty he will have to pay for it; especially when he was unable to come to the court for some reason, even once, to know whether he was forgiven or not. Who will be more cautious of doing further sins? Who will be more willing to follow the law of court thereafter? Who will be more thankful to the court (not to the one who paid the penalties) for the promise of forgiveness on conditions? I think it will be the second man who is not sure about if he is forgiven. He will be more cautious about doing further sin as he is not sure about his previous sins. He will be more intersted in following the law of court, since he has to please the judge to get forgiveness confirmed. While the first one will be more thankful to the one who paid the penalties for him (the intercessor), the second man will be thankful straight to the judge.

When did I say that?

I didn’t say it so I didn’t contradict myself. You are confusing the Protestant doctrines of faith alone and Once Saved Always Saved, which contradict Scripture, with the Catholic Teachings of Faith and Works and Perseverance to the end which are taught in Scripture.

James 2
18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.

Matthew 10

22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

In post 16 you said, women are saved in child birth. In post 34, you said all are saved through Jesus (pbuh).

Cont…

 

[Khalfan]

Cont…

Yes and yes. I use the KJV whenever I am discussing doctrine with a Protestant since Catholic doctrine can be proven from any Bible which is translated correctly. Although the KJV used to contain many errors, they have since been corrected.

I do today.

But KJV has 66 books only in it, while catholics do believe in 77 books, right? Will you reject it if you find further mistakes in it? Which version you think, no christins have any problem with (neither catholics nor protestents)?

I don’t go by my understanding of the Quran. I go by what Muslims have told me. Muslims have tried to convert me before. Especially when I was atheist. At that time, more than one said that the Quran was plain and simple. See this website:

Quran is kitaab-e-mubeen i.e. a book which makes things clear and manifest" O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book, -(kitabun mubeenun) "[5:15]

http://quranicteachings.co.uk/plain.htm

But that doesn’t give you the right to misquote something out of context.

I believe I’ve answered this series of questions before.

Please reread message #62. If any further questions, ask me again.

I couldn’t find the answer in that post, so I ask again.

Did Adam and Eve repent for their sin? If they did, in what state they were then? Once they were forgiven as you said below, in what state they were then? If they were still seperated from God, with the fallen nature, what is the effect that forgiveness of God made in them?

This is real life. Not make believe. In real life, when something is broken and then fixed, it is never as good as it was before it was broken.

Lets say a rock breaks a window. We put the window back together. The next time, the window will break much more easily.

Adam and Eve sinned and their nature fell. We inherited this fallen nature. We inherited the repaired window.

Sincerely,

De Maria

But we don’t repair the windows, rather we replace it with a new one. Can’t God do that with our sin? If not, what does mean by forgiveness? Forgiveness is to cancel the debts and to replace the status as it was before the event that debt resulted. Isn’t it?

Most sincerely,

Khalfan

 

[Khalfan]

Do you understand the term “free will”?

Thanks for bringing this up. This is another HUGE difference between Catholic Teaching and Muslim doctrine.

The Catholic Church teaches that God is incapable of sin because He is all good.

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. …

We do believe God is all powerful. He can do anything he want. But that doesn’t mean he will sin. I am talking about his ability, not what he do and don’t. He don’t do unholy things as he is Good from eternity.

This is an excellent difference between the Christian understanding of the Word of God in the Bible and the Islamic idea of the Word of God in the Quran.

As I understand the Islamic idea of the Quran, it is an UNCREATED book. It exists in heaven beside Allah from all eternity.

However, that begs the question, if the Quran was written in heaven, why are there “Satanic verses” and “abrogated verses”? That doesn’t make sense.

Sense to whom? to Muslims or Christians? Christians don’t believe in any verse in the Quran as of God. For Muslims, all the verses are from God. We don’t believe in any Satanic verses or Abrogated verses.

The Bible is inspired by God but written by man. The man explained the fact which God inspired as best he could. The man in question is Moses. There is no error, it is simply the best way he could express the idea that men had fallen into heinous sin and God would destroy them in the flood.

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, **God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers **so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71
(Cont’d)

So, you don’t believe in any of those verses as happened in reality, is that right? Do you say whatever ‘Moses’ wrote was his own imaginations?

Why would God destroy man for their sin, didn’t God know man gonna sin? Didn’t he know the other way out, like the atonement of animals or someone like ‘Jesus’? Why God decided, those people will have to pay themself for thier sins, by dying in the flood? Why the atonement of ‘Jesus’ didn’t help them? Didn’t God plan the cross event before the flood?

 

[Khalfan]

(Cont’d)
Our love for God does not control His love for us.

Matthew 5
45 That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust.

Then why the sin of man, made God to make a flood on earth to kill all the sinners? Wasn’t that God got controled with our wickedness? You are contradicting yoursefl.

You say that because you don’t understand Chrsitian doctrine. It is precisely the question. That is what fallen nature means.

But did that UNFALLEN nature of Adam and Eve helped them in not committing sin? If not, what is the difference in fallen or unfallen nature, since the effect is the same?

You say? And who are you? I am comparing the erroneous doctrines of Islam to the Truth of the Catholic Church.

I said, ‘were they prone to sin (more or less), are we prone to sin (more or less) is the discussion’, and you agreed they were prone to sin, but less than us. If that doctrine of Islam, that all we are including Adam and Eve, prone to sin (more or less), is erroneous then you are disproving your own catholic doctrine my dear.

The discussion is about Islam’s contradictory and erroneous teachings:

1. Islam claims that no man bears another’s burdens. Yet all Muslims were kicked out of Paradise when Adam and Eve were kicked out. Contradiction.

I have given you enough evidence from Quran, for what Islam teaches about that. We are supposed to live on earth accrding to Quran and Bible. Otherwise God wouldn’t create earth as it is now. We both agree that God created earth before he created man. If you don’t want to accept your own agreements, and still want to hang on to the contradiction claim, I am sorry.

1. Islam claims the Catholic doctrine of Original Sin teaches that all men are born with actual sin. That is an error.

Fallen nature or inheritence of sin because of Adam and Eve, is what Islam don’t agree with, since we believe, they were repented and forgiven. I think, you too agreed that, they were forgiven. If you still want to hang on to the error claim, I am sorry.

1. Islam teaches that Allah made men to sin. Whereas the Catholic Church teaches that God made men to love Him and worship Him.

Islam teaches God made man with the ability for both to love him and to sin against him. Have a look around, you can realise it.

1. Islam has no doctrine of the expiatory nature of suffering.

Islam teaches, there is nothing as expiatory nature of suffering but the existence of the law of of nature -cause and effect. You were an athiest, right? How did you get into these kind of imaginery concepts rather than practical evidence and reasonings? We muslims like athiests, becasue they think a lot than any religious man. They use to hold more on to the logical reasonings than believing in myth. And that is what exactly Islam proposes -logical reasoning.

1. There are many other points which I’ve made clear as we progressed.

Did you? May be.

No, it wasn’t.

So you agree that the sin of the parents affects the children?

And our good deeds also? As opposed to sin, right?

You just described spiritual cause and effect since you mentioned a spiritual illness, sin and a spiritual good, good deeds.

Did I say they were? No. But they are affected by our sins and by our good deeds as you agreed above.

Correct.

Sincerely,

De Maria

See… you want to prove your point, so you hold to any words you think fits for you. I was proving the natural cause and effect side of our deeds, and you took it for spiritual level and effects. Read the post again, take some time, and think. You will understand what I was saying.

 

[Khalfan]

Again, a great difference in Catholic and Islamic doctrine. In Catholic doctrine, God leads no one to damnation. If a man chooses evil, that is his own decision.

Apparently, you are comfortable with the idea that Allah leads some men to hell.

In addition, you seem comfortable with the idea of free will. That is what some Muslims teach. But not all.

Islam doesn’t teach Allah leads men to hell, but he do when WE WANT IT TO BE SO. Where do you think we are getting the ability and power to do sin? We believe, even a leaf cannot move without the will of God. God gave us the free will to choose our deeds. But even the power to use our free will, is from God. We believe, God will question us for each and every power/ability he gave us, how we used it and misused it. If we choose to be guided by God, he will help us for that also, but not unless and until WE SEEK to be guided. Clear?

Did you see what inJesus wrote?

So, did Adam exercise free will or did Allah cause him to sin? And if it was not Allah, who decreed that he should sin before he was created?

What he wrote is nonsense. We both know, in reality, Adam (pbuh) never met Moses (pbuh) since he lived long after Adam (pbuh). This converstaion is in their after life, they argue each other about thier deeds and the judgement of their deeds will be known only on judgementday. Then only we will know, who was better in the eyes of God.

As I said, I use only what is consistent with that which has been explained to me by Muslims.

Well, thank God! Because if you truly believe that you will see how logically Catholic doctrine follows that teaching. It is the main teaching in all of Catholicism.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[inJESUS]

What he wrote is nonsense. We both know, in reality, Adam (pbuh) never met Moses (pbuh) since he lived long after Adam (pbuh). This converstaion is in their after life, they argue each other about thier deeds and the judgement of their deeds will be known only on judgementday. Then only we will know, who was better in the eyes of God.

the nonsense was told by Muhammad, not me. I am quoting wht Muhammad taught you. And your answer is irrelevant and does NOT negate the fact that Moses blamed Adam for leading people astray and out of heaven.

 

[Khalfan]

6 And as for those who choose protecting friends beside Him, Allah is Warden over them, and thou art in no wise a guardian over them.7 And thus We have inspired in thee a Lecture in Arabic, that thou mayst warn the mother-town and those around it, and mayst warn of a day of assembling whereof there is no doubt. A host will be in the Garden, and a host of them in the Flame. 8 Had Allah willed, He could have made them one community, but Allah bringeth whom He will into His mercy. And the wrong-doers have no friend nor helper.
42. ash-Shura: The Counsel

Surah 6:70

Leave alone those who take their religion to be mere play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this world. But proclaim (to them) this (truth): that every soul delivers itself to ruin by its own acts: it will find for itself **no protector or intercessor except God: **if it offered every ransom, (or reparation), none will be accepted: such is (the end of) those who deliver themselves to ruin by their own acts: they will have for drink (only) boiling water, and for punishment, one most grievous: for they persisted in rejecting God.
answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/understanding_the_intercession_prophet_muhammad.htm

Both verses talkes about the preistly proclamations God’s forgiveness etc. Even in pagan Arabs, their preists use to work as the agent of their God. Second verse explicitly states about the atonements that cannot help in the sins of any man.

Intercessors meant here is, those mediators between God and people, who were even confirming the forgiveness of God. Islam doesn’t allow those proclamations and mediators/agents. But it doesn’t stop anyone to pray for others. As I have already said, the acceptence and rejection is to be done by God, no man on earth can confirm it for God. We believe, all the prophets prayed for others and did many miracle works for others. None of them claimed it to be their own power but of God, including Jesus (pbuh).

 

[inJESUS]

If we choose to be guided by God, he will help us for that also, but not unless and until WE SEEK to be guided. Clear?

and when you seek to be guided, will your inclination to evil be gone? will you become an angel on earth? Where does the evil in you come from ? God? of course not. Who will change your nature ? of course God. But how? by putting you in your mothers’ womb again? no, so how?

God gave us a new nature through Jesus who represents us and who took our old nature and gave us His nature. That’s why we live through Jesus. We, by ourselves, can do nothing. It is God who gaves a new nature, and God did.The Spirit-Paraclete, sent by the risen Jesus , comes to “convict the world concerning sin”, by revealing him who is its Redeemer.

389- The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ.

Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.

How do we get it back? through God, and that’s what He did.

 

[Khalfan]

the nonsense was told by Muhammad, not me. I am quoting wht Muhammad taught you. And your answer is irrelevant and does NOT negate the fact that Moses blamed Adam for leading people astray and out of heaven.

My dear InJesus,

What Prophet (pbuh) said is, Moses (pbuh) blamed Adam and Adam (pbuh) got better in arguement. Did he say, God confirmed Adam was right? No. Did he say, God confirmed Moses (pbuh) was right? No. Then why do you come up with such a baseless argument? It is not only Moses (pbuh), but their may be more people, like Christians to blame Adam (pbuh) for his sin. But it is God, not them, who will decide right and wrong about Adam (pbuh).

 

[inJESUS]

Both verses talkes about the preistly proclamations God’s forgiveness etc. Even in pagan Arabs, their preists use to work as the agent of their God. Second verse explicitly states about the atonements that cannot help in the sins of any man.

Intercessors meant here is, those mediators between God and people, who were even confirming the forgiveness of God. Islam doesn’t allow those proclamations and mediators/agents. But it doesn’t stop anyone to pray for others. As I have already said, the acceptence and rejection is to be done by God, no man on earth can confirm it for God. We believe, all the prophets prayed for others and did many miracle works for others. None of them claimed it to be their own power but of God, including Jesus (pbuh).

if Allah does accept the intercession of whom he wills, am sure you will agree that it is very unlikely that He wont accept the intercession of Jesus.

 

[inJESUS]

My dear InJesus,

What Prophet (pbuh) said is, Moses (pbuh) blamed Adam and Adam (pbuh) got better in arguement. Did he say, God confirmed Adam was right? No. Did he say, God confirmed Moses (pbuh) was right? No. Then why do you come up with such a baseless argument? It is not only Moses (pbuh), but their may be more people, like Christians to blame Adam (pbuh) for his sin. But it is God, not them, who will decide right and wrong about Adam (pbuh).

there are huge flaws in your argument :

1- saying that Moses got things wrong. Why did Moses get things wrong ? why did he blame Adam if Adam did nothing? did “prophet” Moses not understand what he wrote to people in your opinion?

2- Adam did NOT say : what are you talkin about i did nothing oh Moses! adam agreed on what Moses said but blamed his deed on pre-destination. It is as if he was saying : yes i did it but why blame me if all things are ordained by Allah?

Here we reply that knowing is not equal to ordaining it. If God knows what Adam will do does NOT mean God pushed Adam to do it. It was the ennemy, not God.

 

[Khalfan]

and when you seek to be guided, will your inclination to evil be gone? will you become an angel on earth? Where does the evil in you come from ? God? of course not. Who will change your nature ? of course God. But how? by putting you in your mothers’ womb again? no, so how?

God gave us a new nature through Jesus who represents us and who took our old nature and gave us His nature. That’s why we live through Jesus. We, by ourselves, can do nothing. It is God who gaves a new nature, and God did.The Spirit-Paraclete, sent by the risen Jesus , comes to “convict the world concerning sin”, by revealing him who is its Redeemer.

389- The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ.

Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.

How do we get it back? through God, and that’s what He did.

My friend, then why do christians, whose natures are changed, sin even after that? Where do they get the nature/ability to sin even after they got changed the fallen nature?

There is nothing changed in us whether we believe in Jesus (pbuh) or not. SIN is not a nature, but a potential exist in us till death. It exist in us even if we believe or not. Sin becomes a reality when we choose it to. Guidence of God is to make us rethink before we commit sin. Guidence of God is to show us the right path where we are cofused of good and bad. Guidence of God is to help us in recognising the temptations of evil and to stay away from it. Guidence of God is where we are supposed to submit ourself when we are lost.

 

[Khalfan]

if Allah does accept the intercession of whom he wills, am sure you will agree that it is very unlikely that He wont accept the intercession of Jesus.

His prayers was accepted. It will be accepted. But the self confirmation of Jesus (pbuh), without the knowledge of God is very unlikely to be accepted. He didn’t do that, since he knew God wouldn’t want such sacrifices for others. If he did, then it is a suicide, which is another major sin in Islam. He wouldn’t have done that either.

 

[inJESUS]

My friend, then why do christians, whose natures are changed, sin even after that? Where do they get the nature/ability to sin even after they got changed the fallen nature?

because i said " we live THROUGH Jesus". I did not say we became Jesus. We cannot do anything unless God does the thing for us . We cannot sanctify ourselves unless God does it for us and He does.

 

[inJESUS]

His prayers was accepted. It will be accepted. But the self confirmation of Jesus (pbuh), without the knowledge of God is very unlikely to be accepted. He didn’t do that, since he knew God wouldn’t want such sacrifices for others. If he did, then it is a suicide, which is another major sin in Islam. He wouldn’t have done that either.

1- i was not talking about the crucifixion. I was talking in general. After all, Muhammad said he will intercede for you, and he did not get killed but killed others.

2- is giving your life for others considered suicide in Islam? and all those Islamic martyrs who were killed in the name of Allah, they committed suicide as well?

3- Jesus did not want to die for others, but let someone else die for him?

 

[Khalfan]

there are huge flaws in your argument :

1- saying that Moses got things wrong. Why did Moses get things wrong ? why did he blame Adam if Adam did nothing? did “prophet” Moses not understand what he wrote to people in your opinion?

How do you know Moses (pbuh) wrote anything at all to people?

2- Adam did NOT say : what are you talkin about i did nothing oh Moses! adam agreed on what Moses said but blamed his deed on pre-destination. It is as if he was saying : yes i did it but why blame me if all things are ordained by Allah?

I said, arguments of Adam or Moses (pbut) is not to be taken as confirmation of their deeds, since only GOD has the right to do so.

Here we reply that knowing is not equal to ordaining it. If God knows what Adam will do does NOT mean God pushed Adam to do it. It was the ennemy, not God.

If it was planned by God, as per Islam, he wouldn’t have asked Adam (pbuh),

‘Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you that Satan was your avowed enemy?’ -Quran 7:19-22

I say again, arguments of Adam or Moses (pbut) is not to be taken as confirmation of their deeds, since only GOD has the right to do so.

 

[Khalfan]

because i said " we live THROUGH Jesus". I did not say we became Jesus. We cannot do anything unless God does the thing for us . We cannot sanctify ourselves unless God does it for us and He does.

So what? can they sin even after they got changed of their nature?