Islam and the Crucifixion

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fatuma,

You are not alone in your sentiments:
1 Cor 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
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You see God being humiliated by His creations, whipped, scourged, beaten, spit upon, crucifiec, and finally killed - and you see defeat. We see victory.

In that one act we see the infinite depth of love that God has for us. Please tell me if I have it wrong, but I don’t believe you can say that God loves you, and I know you can’t say that God loves you as His children. It is only with this understanding that the cross begins to make sense.

But that is not the subject of this thread. The subjece of this thread is Islam and the Crucifixion, not Catholicism and the Crucifixion.

At the start, Munawar told me that it wasn’t Jesus on the cross. For the majority of this thread, Jermin has been arguing that it was Jesus, but He lived through it and popped back out a couple of days later, right as rain and smiley. Jermin wouldn’t commit either way, but that seemed to be his leaning.

Again, in reading the recommended Surahs of the Qur’an, I have read the following:
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YUSUFALI: “So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)”!
PICKTHAL: Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
SHAKIR: And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.
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Munawar has told me that Jesus was taken up to Allah, and will come again to fight the antichrist and then will die a normal death. This Surah says He will be raised to life again. My question is simple: how many deaths has/will Jesus suffer?

Peace be with you,
RyanL
 
What you just said RyanL is very sad. I know that my creator loves me beacuse I know that no matter in what state I am in, no matter what I have done, or no matter how low I have gone, I will always be forgiven and loved and that I am blessed with the knowlegde that there is no power or might greater then the power and might of the Creator of mankind, King of manking, Supreme Judge of the day of judgement. Before every pray a muslim says during salah, we open with the surah al-fatiha( the opening surah in the Quran).
  1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
  2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
  3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
  4. Master of the Day of Judgment.
  5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
  6. Show us the straight way,
  7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
 
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fatuma:
I know that my creator loves me beacuse I know that no matter in what state I am in, no matter what I have done, or no matter how low I have gone, I will always be forgiven and loved and that I am blessed with the knowlegde that there is no power or might greater then the power and might of the Creator of mankind, King of manking, Supreme Judge of the day of judgement
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fatuma,

It is only sad if you don’t understand. For those who understand, it is a joy eternal. Again, that is not for this thread. A quick question that I probably shouldn’t ask on this thread is this: what have you done to merit God’s forgiveness that non-Muslims haven’t? What have you done to deserve forgiveness from God? Do you not sin? Do you not offend God with your sinfulness? Why will God forgive you, and not forgive me? I know there is One God, and I submit my will to His (“let it be done unto me according to your will” - Mary, our model of christianity). Why should God forgive you and not me?

I do not wish to dwell long on this question, as I would rather have my previous question answered - how many times will Jesus die?

Peace be with you,
RyanL
 
**
Jermin Savory
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: We chose to believe Qur’an, because it is from God, and to besides, the gospels don’t agree with eachother on the alleged cricifixion. Why should we believe 4 people who we don’t even know their names Muchless believe in them when they all conflict with eachother and not even agreeing on the events of the “Crucifixion.” **

Jermin,
The accounts of different witnesses varies to some degree but doesn’t contradict each other. A single person’s testimony will not be 100% the same in a literal sense as to the other person. However, they collaborate and the testimony becomes corroborative and only further attests to the truthfulness of the events being testified for.
Furthermore, if you want to discuss it further, what are those “accounts” that you are saying contradicts? We can have another thread for this if you like.
May Christ the Lord have mercy on you.

Pio
 
**
Exoflare: And if you say so, it must be true… right?

Jermin Savory: And because you might not believe, that means it must be false… right?

Jermin,

A testimony of a single person must be verified byat least two or three witnesses. Who is the person that testified the writings of Muhammed to be true?

In the case of Jesus life, there were thousands of people who witnessed to his life. They are all in written and oral form of testimonies.

Pio **
 
**
Fuzzbunny:
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34Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels.

Jermin Savory: Exactly, this just proves my argument, resurrect bodies are spiritualized, not physicalize as Jesus (P) was after he allegedly “raised.” This is what Luke 20:35-36, 1 Corintians 15:42-44 and also Hebrews 9:27 confirms that he didn’t really died. If someone dies, they are spiritualized. **

Jermin,

Look at the words and pay attention to the word “are like the angels.” It is not the same as "will become angels."
Angels are pure spirits, while a human being is body and soul. There is a more profound meaning to the words of Jesus Christ. The glorified body of a human being has exactly the same manifestations to that of Jesus’ glorified body. It is no longer capable of suffering, or anything that is a consequence of sin. Thus, they are like the angels in heaven "who behold the majesty of God and share the beatific vision."
Pio
 
**
Jermin Savory:
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This is incorrect, if they were then why didn’t they insure that he died? by giving us no reason to doubt that he didn’t die?

John 19:33-34 " But when they came to Jesus pbuh and saw that he was already dead, SAW, that he was already dead, they did not bother to break his bones", and thats a fulfillment of prophecy that his leg will not be broken. 34, “but one soldier thrust his lance into his side, and immediately blood and water flowed and Gushed out,” (sign of life) which means that he had life in his body. According to the soldiers he “appeared” to be dead so therefore Jesus’ pbuh leg would not be of any use only if Jesus pbuh was ALIVE.

I understand your eagerness of interpreting those verses.

The soldiers made sure that he was dead so they thrust the spear on Jesus side, and eventually blood and water gushed forth. This is also a fulfillment of the typological event in the OT when slaughtering the lamb where blood comes out while slaughtering it for sacrifice. Jesus is the Lamb of God sacrificed for our sins.

The breaking of the legs of a crucified person hastens the death sinc ehe catches his breath without the support of the legs. IN Jesus’ case, the soldiers looked at him and realized he was already dead, BUT to make sure that he was dead they thrust a spear on his side. Look the the evidence of the shroud of Turin www.shroud.com and the testimonies of persons who studied them.

Pio**
 
God forgives any and all only if they repent with sincereness and to never repeat the sin again( and if you fail and go back to the sin, then keep trying harder). This is not only a mercy but a miracle in of it’s self. This is the promise of God to his creation ( the ability to forgive all sins if you repent and strave to never do it again).

ps. I don’t know how many times Jesus(pbuh) died. I will defer this question to my knowledgeable brothers and sisters. All I know is how to live my life in Islam. Hope that helps.
 
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Jermin Savory:
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** in the book of Hebrews, 9:27 it states “After a man dies, its the day of resurrection.”

This verse is plain as day

Jermin,

What translation are you looking at? Rather it says:

“Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment…”

It doesn’t say resurrection. It says" JUDGEMENT" that means “particular judgement.”

Pio
 
God forgives any and all only if they repent with sincereness and to never repeat the sin again( and if you fail and go back to the sin, then keep trying harder). This is not only a mercy but a miracle in of it’s self. This is the promise of God to his creation ( the ability to forgive all sins if you repent and strave to never do it again).
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ps. I don’t know how many times Jesus(pbuh) died. I will defer this question to my knowledgeable brothers and sisters. All I know is how to live my life in Islam. Hope that helps.
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Fatuma,

I agree with you that God forgives a person who is repentant. But how will you be so sure that you are forgiven? Do you also forgive the sins of others who have wronged you? Because if you don’t forgive the persons who have wronged you, how would you expect that God will forgive your sins?

Jesus died only once (his human nature) as a sacrifice for our sins.

Pio
 
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Jermin Savory: It may seem reasonable to you but it doesn’t for me because i’m an unbiased reader of the bible, i’m not influenced by any teachings. I read the bible like it is.

There is only one thing I can assure you and it is this:

You can never understand the Sacred Scripture if you interpret it your way. Unless the Holy Spirit enlightens your mind and you pray to him for enlightenment, He will guide your heart and mine and;

"You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

Pio**
 
To truely believe in God is to believe in His mercy to forgive. If you believe that you have commited a sin so great that God will not forgive you, then you do not truely believe in God and His infinite power. God loves the most thoes that go to Him in repentance beacuse this is the show of a believer. To put your soul at His mercy and declare that you have no power to help yourself without His will is the greatest thing you can do beacuse this is an act of worship, of puting your creator as your protector, provider, sustainer, your judge and the ONE you love beyand all else.
 
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Fuzzbunny:
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You believe that it was corrupted. You and I are both biased. Let me put it to you this way-if it said, which in some translations it does, that he is not a ghost, shouldn’t it not change the meaning of things?
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Jermin Savory:** The man says that he is not a ghost, shouldn’t that tell you that he is not resurrected?

Jermin,

Haven’t you read the passage in the Gospel of John 11:26:

"Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.”

Pio**
 
Why won’t any Muslims answer this question?
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YUSUFALI: “So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)”!
PICKTHAL: Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
SHAKIR: And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.
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How many times has/will Jesus die? I am merely asking an open ended question from your Qur’an…

Peace,
RyanL
 
i am making an educated guess, i pray for forgiveness if i am incorrect and if i am wrong then i fully take this back.ok. when it states: “So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)”!
muslims don’t believe that jesus(pbuh) is dead, he is fully alive, in heaven, in the presence of God. At the end of times he will come back, fight the anti-christ, live out the rest of his natural human life on earth, then for the first time taste death, die, and on the day of judgement with the rest of humanity, he will be resurrected to be judge by God all mighty.
or i could be full of hot air and get it all wrong so i will defer to my more knowledgable brothers and sisters.
 
fatuma,

Thank you for your answer! I have been waiting to get a response, and I am glad you have provided.

OK. Now, it is my understanding that you claim that Jesus is alive in heaven with God. He will come again to battle the anti-christ, and will then live a normal life and die. Following this, he will be “made alive” again to face the judgement of God. What happens after that? Do you believe that Jesus will be alive in his body for all eternally? Also, in christianity the final judgement is what follows the defeat of the anti-christ. It would seem that there is a significant period of time between the death of the anti-christ and the final judgement (a “normal life” span for Jesus). What happens between the death of the anti-christ and the final judgement?

Is all of this correct?

Peace be with you,
RyanL
 
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RyanL:
Thank you for your answer! I have been waiting to get a response, and I am glad you have provided.
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I’d just like to affirm that fautma’s answer is correct. The Qur’an verse you cited is referring to Jesus’ death after he returns to earth and slays the anti-Christ, and lives as a married man, with children, some forty years thereafter. Every human soul must death only once, and Jesus (PBUH) is no exception.
Do you believe that Jesus will be alive in his body for all eternally?
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Yes, and so too Muhammad, Abraham, Noah (PBUT)…and all the rest of humanity as well. Life in the next world is totally eternal, whether the person is Hell-bound or Heaven-bound.
What happens between the death of the anti-christ and the final judgement?
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In Islam, there are ten major signs (as well as several hundred minor signs) of the approach of the Day of Judgement. Muhammad (PBUH) is reported to have described the ten major signs as imminent of that Day, and would follow one another in coming to pass like “pearls falling off a necklace”. For more on these ten major signs (as well as the minor ones), please see this page, and scroll down “The Major Signs” heading (its author is a Catholic convert to Islam and a good aquaintance of mine).
 
In the name of Allah

Hlgomez: A testimony of a single person must be verified byat least two or three witnesses. Who is the person that testified the writings of Muhammed to be true?
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Jermin Savory: **Muhammad didn’t author the Qur’an. He recorded what was revealed to him, and what was revealed to him was then recorded by him and his scribes. So yes, they were witness to the fact that it was not his words, neither did he author the Qur’an.
 
In the name of Allah

Ryanl: How many times has/will Jesus die? I am merely asking an open ended question from your Qur’an…

Jermin Savory: Jesus (P) will die a natural death when he returns and live a normal life. Therefore he will only die once and resurrect once like every other human being. As Stated in hebrews 9:27. Unlike the bible, Jesus (P) died and resurrect and according the Christian teachings, he will die again and resurrect.
 
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