Islam and the Crucifixion

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

Hlgomez: The soldiers made sure that he was dead so they thrust the spear on Jesus side, and eventually blood and water gushed forth. This is also a fulfillment of the typological event in the OT when slaughtering the lamb where blood comes out while slaughtering it for sacrifice. Jesus is the Lamb of God sacrificed for our sins.

The breaking of the legs of a crucified person hastens the death sinc ehe catches his breath without the support of the legs. IN Jesus’ case, the soldiers looked at him and realized he was already dead,

**
Jermin Savory:** No, the soldiers did not make sure he died because he rasised and was seen by his deciples, which means that he didn’t die, what is so hard to understand. They though they killed him. Why would the broken leg of Jesus be of any use if he was a live? Blood and water is a sign of life in the blood stream, this only proves that he had life in has body and that he didn’t die. Besides, how can you look at someone and determine that they are dead? especially 2000 years ago? I wouldn’t want you as my doctor Hlgomez!

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

**
Hlgomez**: “Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment…”

It doesn’t say resurrection. It says" JUDGEMENT" that means “particular judgement.”

Jermin Savory: I never said it says resurrection. Please quote me along with my context. After someone dies, he cannot resurrect until the day of Judgment. Which means he cannot come back to life until the day of Judgment. Jesus (P) didn’t die because he appeared to his deciples and asked them to examine him and certify that he is not a spook becase they had thought he died and hand given up the ghost because they were not eyewitness. So he clarified that he didn’t die and resurrect because resurrected bodies are spiritualized.

 

[RyanL]

[paraphrase]
= Jesus was crucified, but didn’t die on the cross!

Jermin,

You may not like it, but if you say Jesus was crucified, you must believe he died. Don’t take my word for it …take the word of trained medical examiners! Unless you are one, you are in no place to refute this: cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a024.html

Medical Aspects of Crucifixion

With a knowledge of both anatomy and ancient crucifixion practices, one may reconstruct the probably medical aspects of this form of slow execution. Each wound apparently was intended to produce intense agony, and the contributing causes of death were numerous.

The scourging prior to crucifixion served to weaken the condemned man and, if blood loss was considerable, to produce orthostatic hypotension and even hypovolemic shock. (8, 12) When the victim was thrown to the ground on his back, in preparation for transfixion of his hands, his scourging wounds most likely would become torn open again and contaminated with dirt. (2,14) Furthermore, with each respiration, the painful scourging wounds would be scraped against the rough wood of the stipes. (7) As a result, blood loss from the back probably would continue throughout the crucifixion ordeal.

With arms outstretched but not taut, the wrists were nailed to the patibulum. (7,11) It has been shown that the ligaments and bones of the wrist can support the weight of a body hanging from them , but the palms cannot. (11) Accordingly, the iron spikes probably were driven between the radius and the carpals or between the two rows of carpal bones, (2,10,11,30) either proximal to or through the strong bandlike flexor retinaculum and the various intercarpal ligaments. Although a nail in either location in the wrist might pass between the bony elements and thereby produce no fractures, the likelihood of painful periosteal injury would seem great. Furthermore, the driven nail would crush or sever the rather large sensorimotor median nerve. (2,7,11) The stimulated nerve would produce excruciating bolts of fiery pain in both arms. (7,9) Although the severed median nerve would result in paralysis of a portion of the hand, ischemic contractures and impalement of various ligaments by the iron spike might produce a clawlike grasp.

Most commonly, the feet were fixed to the front of the stipes by means of an iron spike driven through the first or second intermetatarsal space, just distal to the tarsometatarssal joint. (2,5,8,11,30) It is likely that the deep peroneal nerve and branches of the medial and lateral plantar nerves would have been injured by the nails. …

The major pathophysiologic effect of crucifixion, beyond the excruciating pain, was a marked interference with normal respiration, particularly exhalation. The weight of the body, pulling down on the outstretched arms and shoulders, would tend to fix the intercostal muscles in an inhalation state and thereby hinder passive exhalation. (2,10,11) Accordingly, exhalation was primarily diaphragmatic, and breathing was shallow. It is likely that this form of respiration would not suffice and that hypercarbia would soon result. The onset of muscle cramps or tetanic contractions, due to fatigue and hypercarbia, would hinder respiration even further. (11)

Adequate exhalation required lifting the body by pushing up on the feet and by flexing the elbows and adducting the shoulders. (2) However, this maneuver would place the entire weight of the body on the tarsals and would produce searing pain. (7) Furthermore, flexion of the elbows would cause rotation of the wrists about the iron nails and cause fiery pain along the damaged median nerves. (7) Lifting of the body would also painfully scrape the scourged back against the rough wooden stipes. (2,7) Muscle cramps and paresthesias of the outstretched and uplifted arms would add to the discomfort. (7) As a result, each respiratory effort would become agonizing and tiring and lead eventually to asphyxia. (2,3,7,10)

The actual cause of death by crucifixion was multifactorial and varied somewhat with each case, but the two most prominent causes probably were hypovolemic shock and exhaustion asphyxia. (2,3,7,10) Other possible contributing factors included dehydration, (7,16) stress-induced arrhythmias, (3) and congestive heart failure with the rapid accumulation of pericardial and perhaps pleural effusions. (2,7,11) Crucifracture, if performed, led to an asphyxic death within minutes. (11)

 

[RyanL]

Jermin Savory: Jesus (P) will die a natural death when he returns and live a normal life. Therefore he will only die once and resurrect once like every other human being. …, he will die again and resurrect.

Jermin,

Because I don’t know what Islam teaches, could you please tell me if we are all going to be alive in the body for all eternity? Are we all destined to be immortal?

Peace be with you,
RyanL

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

Ryanl: You may not like it, but if you say Jesus was crucified, you must believe he died. Don’t take my word for it …take the word of trained medical examiners! Unless you are one, you are in no place to refute this:

**
Jermin Savory:** I made a slight mistake in my wording, instead of crucificted I put crucified. I don’t believe that Jesus (P) died on the Cross or suffered crucifiction. I believe that he was raised alive and this is my contention.

 

[RyanL]

Jermin Savory:

… I don’t believe that Jesus (P) died on the Cross or suffered crucifiction [sic]. I believe that he was raised alive and this is my contention.

Jermin,

What did you base your contention on? I have just given ample medical testimony from forensic pathologists and various other medical experts stating how Jesus’ death is a given once you say that He “suffered crucifixion”. By the way, “cruci-fiction” is what you are doing when you don’t present evidence to support your theory! HA! A poor joke, but I couldn’t leave it alone…

Peace be with you,
RyanL

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah
**
Fuzzbunny: **Where does it say he is afraid of the Jews?
**

Jermin Savory:** Where does it say that he wasn’t afraid of the Jews. he was always hiding, this is why he was never in the open, he was alway hiding. But natural if your killers findout that you are not dead they will be furious more to kill you, therefore Jesus (P) was hiding and disguised as a carpenter or a gardener .

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

**
Ryanl: **What did you base your contention on? I have just given ample medical testimony from forensic pathologists and various other medical experts stating how Jesus’ death is a given once you say that He “suffered crucifixion”. By the way, “cruci-fiction” is what you are doing when you don’t present evidence to support your theory! HA! A poor joke, but I couldn’t leave it alone…
**

Jermin Savory:** I don’t believe Jesus Suffered crucifixion, he may have been put on the cross but did not suffer death in the hands of his enemies.

 

[RyanL]

Jermin Savory: I don’t believe Jesus Suffered crucifixion, he may have been put on the cross but did not suffer death in the hands of his enemies.

Jermin,

You’re a sensible guy. What did you base this conclusion on? Historical evidence? Medical evidence? Eye witness testimony? Circumstantial evidence?

Also, how are you saying that Jesus was nailed to a cross by the Roman Legion and then stabbed in the chest with a spear, but He didn’t suffer? How does that make sense?

Thank you again for sharing your beliefs. I have read your posts on whyislam.org, and I understand why you are comming here - again, thank you.

Peace be with you,
RyanL

 

[RyanL]

Who has performed the greatest act of love?
Yahweh or Allah

           In Islam, what is the greatest act of love Allah has ever accomplished? I asked this question of several Muslims and I got similar answers: he forgave us of our sins; he gave us families and provisions; he showed us mercy; he gave us the Qur'an. The answers didn't vary much beyond these responses. I found them lacking.

Most Muslims believe that the Bible is not trustworthy, that it has been corrupted, that the Injeel (gospel) of Jesus has been lost, and the Qur’an restores God’s truth to mankind. But, that is another subject to be debated.
In John 15:13 Jesus said, “Greater love has no man than this, that he lay his life down for his friend.” I have the Nestle Aland Greek New Testament with the textual apparatus is included in it. The textual apparatus is the complete listing (per verse) of any textual variants that occur in any of the ancient New Testament manuscripts. Therefore, it is a very easy thing to go to John 15:13 and look at the textual evidence to see if there are any manuscripts at all, anywhere that have any variation on that verse. There are none. In other words, there is not a single manuscript of the more than 25,000 manuscripts of the NT that have any derivation on that verse. Every single one of them says the exact same thing. I will, therefore, conclude that it is an authentic and reliable saying of Jesus.
Again, Jesus said, “Greater love has no man than this, that he lay his life down for his friend.” According to Jesus, the greatest act of love is to sacrifice one’s life for another. This means that giving one’s life for another is a greater act of love than providing food for him, giving him a family, being nice to him, or honest, or helpful, or whatever. Self-sacrifice, to the point of death, is the very greatest act of love.
Has Allah performed the greatest act of love? The answer is no. Allah has not sacrificed himself at all. Allah has not died for another. Allah has not loved us to the point of death.
In Christianity, Jesus, who is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14), laid His life down for us. Jesus performed the greatest act of love.

         **If Islam is true...**

           If Islam is true and Allah is the true God, then Jesus, a creation (according to Islam) has performed a greater act of love than Allah (according to the Bible). A mere man has outdone Allah in love and sacrifice. But, of course, Islam denies that Jesus ever died. They then say that Jesus has not done the greatest act of love. Their denial does not change the fact that Jesus died on the cross as is amply attested to by the eyewitnesses who wrote the gospel. Besides, whether or not the Muslim believes Jesus died on the cross does not change the fact that Jesus told us what the greatest act of love was -- and Allah has not done it. Yet, according to Christianity He has. Since Muslims want Christians to adopt Islam, they are asking us Christian to give up our Lord who has performed the greatest act of love on our behalf. Why would we want to do that?

If Christianity is true, then God has performed the greatest act of love. If Islam is true, then God hasn’t. Which “god,” then is more loving, the one who speaks of love, or the one who acts out love?
I have found no where in the Qur’an where it says that Allah is love. The Qur’an says that Allah loves people, but it never says that Allah is love. By contrast, the Bible clearly tells us that God is love. * “And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love*; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him,” (1 John 4:16).

 

[RyanL]

Who does God love?

             Does God love all? In Islam, the answer is no. In Christianity, the answer is yes. Consider the following verses from the Qur'an. 


 "Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and messengers, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith," ([2:98,           Trans. Yusuf Ali](http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html))


 "Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers," [3:32,           Trans. Shakir](http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html)).  

             

  Consider the       following verses from the Bible *

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life,”* (John 3:16).*

"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.’ 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you 45 in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax-gatherers do the same? 47 "And if you greet your brothers only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. * (Matt. 5:43-48).

We can easily see the huge difference between the God of Islam and the God of the Bible. In Islam, God does not love all people. In the Bible, God does love all people. In Islam, Allah did not die for the sins of those who were not his. In the Bible, God did do that. In Islam, Allah has not performed the greatest act of love. In the Bible, God did exactly that.
My question to the Muslims is, "What makes you think that I want to give up my Lord who loves me so much that He would die for me, and did, for a god who has not and cannot perform the greatest act of love?

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

RyanL: ** ** If Islam is true…
If Islam is true and Allah is the true God, then Jesus, a creation (according to Islam) has performed a greater act of love than Allah (according to the Bible). A mere man has outdone Allah in love and sacrifice.

Jermin Savory: Yes, i’m happy that you said “According to the Bible” because we Muslims don’t believe in the myth of crucifixion. Our prophet (P) Jesus didn’t die for our sins, our lord forgives us of our sins just as he forgive Jesus (P) of his sins, therefore for us, Jesus (P) is or was not a forgiver of sins. And Ryanl, incase you haven’t noticed, NO man can outdone Allah, he is the Creator and the sustainer of all forms of life. We are his creation, therefore we stand not in a position that we can outdone him. Unlike your god, he requires rest, he regrets he created his creation, he hides in restleing matches, he was crucified, he accounts for 1\3 of the holy trinity and he was even a man once before! Just like us! he used the bathroon, he showered, he prayed to some other god who is in heaven and the list goes on.

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

RyanL: Has Allah performed the greatest act of love? The answer is no. Allah has not sacrificed himself at all. Allah has not died for another. Allah has not loved us to the point of death. In Christianity, Jesus, who is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14), laid His life down for us. Jesus performed the greatest act of love.

**
Jermin Savory**: Ryan, you are lacking in the understanding that Allah is he who created all of mankind, Allah doesn’t die, he is infinite. Allah doesn’t end, he goes on forever. He is the One besides whom there is no other gods. And RyanL, incase you haven’t noticed, Allah has performed the greatest act of love, and continues to do it everyday you wake up and open your eyes. Look at the pattern of everything you see, Who could have created all that exist? And RyanL, you are wright, Allah has not sacrificed himself at all, if He did, how would life possibly exist? How logical is it to know that the One whom all form of life depend on serverely for sustenence has sacrificed (Killed) himself? Is saying that God sacrifice himself a logical thing to say? No.

		**Surah AR-RAD 13:16**

"Say: “Who is the Lord and Sustainer of the heavens and the earth?” Say: “(It is) Allah.” Say: “Do ye then take (for worship) protectors other than Him, such as have no power either for good or for harm to themselves?” Say: “Are the blind equal with those who see? Or the depths of darkness equal with light?” Or do they assign to Allah partners who have created (anything) as He has created, so that the creation seemed to them similar? Say: “Allah is the Creator of all things: He is the One, the Supreme and Irresistible.”

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah **
**
RyanL: My question to the Muslims is, "What makes you think that I want to give up my Lord who loves me so much that He would die for me, and did, for a god who has not and cannot perform the greatest act of love?

**
Jermin Savory:** My Question to you RyanL is, what makes you think that I would give up my faith in the One and Only True God who has brought me into existence? What makes you think that I would lose faith in Allah who is loving and kind, just and merciful for a “god” who allegedly died for “our” sins. What makes you think I would give up my One True Allah who his uncreated for a “god” of yours who was created.

 

[Jermin_Savory]

** Who does God love?**
RyanL: Does God love all? In Islam, the answer is no. In Christianity, the answer is yes.

Jermin Savory: Ryanl wishes to say that Allah doesn’t love, in which he has quoted his two examples out of context. In fact, as A Muslim, I can honest tell you, Allah does love, and this is what I read in my Qur’an every day and night.
**
Surah HUD 11:90**
“But ask forgiveness of your Lord, and turn unto Him (in repentance): For my Lord is indeed full of mercy and loving-kindness.”

AL-BUROOJ 85:14
"And He is the Oft-Forgiving, Full of Loving-Kindness, "

As you can see from the above verses, Allah does love unconditionally his believers especially those who turn to him in repentence. If Allah were to punish us for every little sin we commit without asking for forgivness, The whole of humanity would have been erased. This is the love, compassion and mercy that Allah has for us. Unlike the Bible, “God” kills innocent childred, young girls, whole towns and families.

In Numbers 31:17-18
“Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”

Is this what “God” teaches in the Bible RyanL, and your trying to invite me to Christianity? Unlike the Bible, the Qur’an states
In Surah 5:32

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

 

[RyanL]

Jermin Savory: Ryanl wishes to say that Allah doesn’t love, in which he has quoted his two examples out of context. In fact, as A Muslim, I can honest tell you, Allah does love, and this is what I read in my Qur’an every day and night.

Jermin,

That is not at all what I am saying. What I am saying is that the God of Christianity loves everyone, sinners and saints, christians and non-christians, men, women, children, friends, and enemies. Allah loves only his own. That is what I am saying.

Peace be with you,
RyanL

 

[RyanL]

Jermin Savory:

Jermin Savory: Yes, i’m happy that you said “According to the Bible” because we Muslims don’t believe in the myth of crucifixion…NO man can outdone Allah, he is the Creator and the sustainer of all forms of life. We are his creation, therefore we stand not in a position that we can outdone him. Unlike your god, he requires rest, he regrets he created his creation, he hides in restleing matches, he was crucified, he accounts for 1\3 of the holy trinity and he was even a man once before! Just like us! he used the bathroon, he showered, he prayed to some other god who is in heaven and the list goes on.

Jermin,

1. When did crucifixion become a myth? Was Jesus on the cross? You have yet to provide any evidence to refute the “Medical Aspects of the Crucifixion” that I posted earlier in the thread…
2. All martyrs die for God. Those who do so out of love for God have expressed a greater love than Allah has expressed for you. They have given themselves completely and totally, sacraficing everything for their love. Allah has not done the same for you. They have shown greater love than Allah. Jesus has died for us (me and you). His sacrafice, as God, is infintely greater than any expression of love that we could show Him.
3. God created man. God decided that man should rest. God decided that man should use the bathroom. God decided that man should eat. After God created man (and before we turned from Him through Adam), He looked at us and declared, “It is good!”. There is nothing inherently wrong with any of these things. None of them are sinful or disgraceful. How could there be something disgraceful about what God has made?!?
4. If, in His infinite love, He condescended to become like us (again, this is within His power), there would be nothing disgraceful about it. He would sacrifice nothing of His dignity and infinite perfection to take on our form. He is God. He cannot be less than He is.
5. God is not a pie, that you can divide up into 1/3’s. God is One. He is Triune. That’s Tri-Une, or 3-1. Trinity. One. Eternally alone, and eternally together. This is the mystery of the Christian faith. In mathematical terms, it is not 1+1+1=3. It is 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.

Peace be with you,
RyanL

 

[RyanL]

Jermin Savory: My Question to you RyanL is, what makes you think that I would give up my faith in the One and Only True God who has brought me into existence? What makes you think that I would lose faith in Allah who is loving and kind, just and merciful for a “god” who allegedly died for “our” sins. What makes you think I would give up my One True Allah who his uncreated for a “god” of yours who was created.

You would not give up anything. He is the same God who made you. He is the same God who loves you. He is the same God who has been kind to you.

My question, in return, is what makes you think my God was created? No Catholic has ever claimed this. Jesus was eternally begotten of the Father, and Is Who Is. He is the Word of God - the Eternal Word, made flesh.

As I said, you would not give up anything. You would, however, gain a God who loves you eternally, infinitely, and perfectly. You would gain the only one who can bridge the infinite gap between us creatures and the Creator.

Peace be with you,
RyanL

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

RyanL: That is not at all what I am saying. What I am saying is that the God of Christianity loves everyone, sinners and saints, christians and non-christians, men, women, children, friends, and enemies. Allah loves only his own. That is what I am saying.

Jermin Savory: Allah loves all of his creation, including Jesus (P) whom he has created, and whom you call you god. He is very merciful and Just. Allah doesn’t only love the Muslims, Allah loves those who come to him in sincere repentence. Anyone who is striving in the way of Allah, Allah loves him.

 

[RyanL]

Jermin Savory: Allah loves all of his creation, including Jesus (P) whom he has created, and whom you call you god. He is very merciful and Just. Allah doesn’t only love the Muslims, Allah loves those who come to him in sincere repentence. Anyone who is striving in the way of Allah, Allah loves him.

Exactly. Yahweh loves even those who do not repent.