Islam and the Crucifixion

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

**…**First, it is not possible to be fully man and fully God…

Impossible for you and me, yes; not impossible for God.

**…**Don’t you know that you are contradicting yourself?..

No, I’m Not.

**…**God is eternal…

So Is Jesus

**…**to be fully man is to have a beginning and to be appointed a day to die…

The Humanity of Jesus did have a beginning and He did die.

**…**God doesn’t die therefore he was not a man…

Jesus, who was Fully Man as well as Fully God did experience death, in which His Soul was separated from His Body. This did not affect His Divinity.

**…**How dare you say such things about God! …

Because it’s true.

**…**And are you sayng that God died?..

Please read two responses earlier

**…**and if your answer is that God didn’t die on the cross, Jesus (P) died, then Jesus (P) isn’t God + one man can’t carry the sins of the world…

Please read three responses earlier

…And another point is, in order for this “Crucifixion” story of Christianity, if it were to have sacrifical credit, it was suppose to be done when Jesus (P) was alive and that is according to exedous 12:5.

I’m not sure what your point is here. Jesus was certainly still alive as a Man when He commenced His offering of Himself on the Cross. Exodus 12:5, referring to the Passover lamb, says it must be a male yearling without blemish.

 

[fatuma]

How can you proudly proclaim the death of the Supreme Being?
It is as if you spat in the face of God. I don’t know which is wrose, pharoah proclaiming that he was God before Muses(as) or the catholics saying that God is dead? I am in a state of true shock right now. I don’t know what to write. :nope:

 

[fatuma]

ps: nobody answered my question on how can God separate himself from himself.

 

[iamrefreshed]

fatuma:

ps: nobody answered my question on how can God separate himself from himself.

I’m curious Fatuma. Do you questions God’s powers? Is there a point where God just throws up His hands and says “I’d love to do that but it is beyond my powers”?

Is that what Islam teaches?

 

[fatuma]

hey, i don’t, unlike many catholics here, question Gods power. He has so much power He forgives not dies. BTW my question was, you believe that Jesus(as) is God, that God took in mans sins, then separated from himself, was so shocked by the processe that he cried out “o god why did i leave myself”, beacsue this is what is meant by when Jesus cries “o father why have you forsaken me”. this to me is crazy talk and the true questioning of God’s power.

wa salam

 

[Ahimsa]

iamrefreshed:

I’m curious Fatuma. Do you questions God’s powers? Is there a point where God just throws up His hands and says “I’d love to do that but it is beyond my powers”?

Is that what Islam teaches?

When Muslims claim to reject the idea of God dying, it’s because to say that God is able to die is, for Muslims, like saying that God is able to lie, or have lust. Can God lie, or lust?

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

Iamrefreshed: Hello Jermin. I hope you have been well. I am curious how man can question what is possible for God to do? Your first sentence above leads me to believe that you (man) know God’s limits/lack of limits? Does Islam teach that God has limitations? Could God not turn me into a fly if He so chose? If your answer is yes, can you reconcile it with your statement above? Thanks.
**
Jermin Savory**: And i’m curious how man can create beliefs that are befitting to the majesty of God. Your writings like i’ve seen leads me to believe that there is no limit to your new ideas of who God is. Does Christianity teach that God can be played with? Iamrefreshed, if you actually disagree with me with what i’ve written about i’m very surprise at you :tsktsk: . I’m afraid I don’t know what to say. You are fighting with logic and you are losing bad.
**
Joseph bilodeau:** I’m not sure what your point is here. Jesus was certainly still alive as a Man when He commenced His offering of Himself on the Cross. Exodus 12:5, referring to the Passover lamb, says it must be a male yearling without blemish.
**
Jermin Savory:** My point is, according to your scriptures, in order for this “Crucifixion” story of Christianity, if it were to have sacrifical credit, it was suppose to be done when Jesus (P) was alive.

Joseph bilodeau: Jesus, who was Fully Man as well as Fully God did experience death, in which His Soul was separated from His Body. This did not affect His Divinity.

Jermin Savory: I’m in awe with the things that i’m hearing, my heart is racing at the things that i’m hearing in this forum about God. Saying that God is fully man and fully God is against all basic teachings of logic. Christianity has deviated so far away from the teachings of the Prophets of God. May Allah deal justly with Christianity for the things they utter against His majesty.

Joseph bilodeau: The Humanity of Jesus did have a beginning and He did die.

**
Jermin savory:** you said that Jesus who (P) was fully man experienced death, and before you said that Jesus (P) is God and that he was eternal how does someone be uncreated, eternal and die?

**
Iamrefreshed:** I’m curious Fatuma. Do you questions God’s powers? Is there a point where God just throws up His hands and says “I’d love to do that but it is beyond my powers”? Is that what Islam teaches?

**
Jermin Savory:** No she doesn’t question Gods power because in the Qur’an God doesn’t leave his power questionable. Unlike the Bible, God restles with his prophets and loses. And in Christianity God can be apart of something, or be one of 3. In islam the Qur’an doesn’t :tsktsk: teach that God is one of Three or three in one of a godhead. In the Qur’an Allah tells Gabril to tell the Prophet: (P)
**
Qur’an 112: 1-4**

1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.

 

[iamrefreshed]

fatuma:

hey, i don’t, unlike many catholics here, question Gods power. He has so much power He forgives not dies. BTW my question was, you believe that Jesus(as) is God, that God took in mans sins, then separated from himself, was so shocked by the processe that he cried out “o god why did i leave myself”, beacsue this is what is meant by when Jesus cries “o father why have you forsaken me”. this to me is crazy talk and the true questioning of God’s power.

wa salam

OK. Is that an answer to my questions? I asked specific questions. When you answer mine I will attempt to answer yours.

 

[iamrefreshed]

In the name of Allah

Iamrefreshed: Hello Jermin. I hope you have been well. I am curious how man can question what is possible for God to do? Your first sentence above leads me to believe that you (man) know God’s limits/lack of limits? Does Islam teach that God has limitations? Could God not turn me into a fly if He so chose? If your answer is yes, can you reconcile it with your statement above? Thanks.

Jermin Savory: And i’m curious how man can create beliefs that are befitting to the majesty of God. Your writings like i’ve seen leads me to believe that there is no limit to your new ideas of who God is. Does Christianity teach that God can be played with? Iamrefreshed, if you actually disagree with me with what i’ve written about i’m very surprise at you :tsktsk: . I’m afraid I don’t know what to say. You are fighting with logic and you are losing bad.

Joseph bilodeau: I’m not sure what your point is here. Jesus was certainly still alive as a Man when He commenced His offering of Himself on the Cross. Exodus 12:5, referring to the Passover lamb, says it must be a male yearling without blemish.

Jermin Savory: My point is, according to your scriptures, in order for this “Crucifixion” story of Christianity, if it were to have sacrifical credit, it was suppose to be done when Jesus (P) was alive.

Joseph bilodeau: Jesus, who was Fully Man as well as Fully God did experience death, in which His Soul was separated from His Body. This did not affect His Divinity.

Jermin Savory: I’m in awe with the things that i’m hearing, my heart is racing at the things that i’m hearing in this forum about God. Saying that God is fully man and fully God is against all basic teachings of logic. Christianity has deviated so far away from the teachings of the Prophets of God. May Allah deal justly with Christianity for the things they utter against His majesty.

Joseph bilodeau: The Humanity of Jesus did have a beginning and He did die.

Jermin savory: you said that Jesus who (P) was fully man experienced death, and before you said that Jesus (P) is God and that he was eternal how does someone be uncreated, eternal and die?

Iamrefreshed: I’m curious Fatuma. Do you questions God’s powers? Is there a point where God just throws up His hands and says “I’d love to do that but it is beyond my powers”? Is that what Islam teaches?

Jermin Savory: No she doesn’t question Gods power because in the Qur’an God doesn’t leave his power questionable. Unlike the Bible, God restles with his prophets and loses. And in Christianity God can be apart of something, or be one of 3. In islam the Qur’an doesn’t :tsktsk: teach that God is one of Three or three in one of a godhead. In the Qur’an Allah tells Gabril to tell the Prophet: (P)

Qur’an 112: 1-4

1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.

Jermin, I will leave you with the same post as I left with Fatuma. Please answer my questions. I will then answer yours to the best of my ability. I refrain from quoting the Qur’an, as you got so angry with me the last time I did so, but, if you do not answer my questions, I will quote what I believe are relevant Sura’s.

 

[RyanL]

Ahimsa,

No - God cannot lie or have lust. This is because it is contrary to the divine character of God. God is perfect Truth, and He cannot be something He is not. God cannot have lust, because lust is a disordered and twisted form of love. Because God is perfect Love, He cannot be lust.

God can, however, assume flesh and allow that flesh to die. He does not cease to exist, He merely departs His physical body. This is no different than a normal person dying - their soul does not cease to exist, it merely departs its body. There is nothing contrary to the character of God to do this. This is not contrary to the divine essence (Truth, Love, Power, Knowledge, Mercy, etc.). The infinite can be confined to the finite, if God so desires. Consider this in mathematical terms - how many numbers are there between 1 and 2? Let’s count: 1.1, 1.01, 1.001, 1.0001, etc, etc. Does the infinite cease to exist because it is between 1 and 2? Is it not still unbounded? So we can see that this is clearly possible, if it is the will of God to so confine Himself. He remains all knowing and all powerful, but confines His physical presence to a specific temporal location in one specific Godhead of the Blessed Trinity. Perhaps that helps.

Fatuma,

I am exceedingly pleased at your questions! You have a keen mind, and seem to be genuinely seeking answers! This is exactly what we would like to see. I suspect that the lack of this attitude is probably why deen was suspended. In any case, I welcome you and am glad to discuss whatever questions you have.

As was explained earlier, Jesus was not declaring that He was separated from the other two members of the Trinity. It is a metaphysical and theological impossibility for God to be separated from God. It is like God being Lie, as explained above. He cannot be other than what He is, and He is Trinity. Rather, Jesus was referencing Psalm 22, to call our attention to it. If you would like further reading on this, the following links appear understandable, if not a bit “liberal”:
catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=856
catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=905

Jermin,

You keep evading questions. I will answer no more of yours until you start answering those asked of you.

Peace be with you all,
RyanL

 

[RyanL]

Just ran across this in my reading of the Qur’an:

*043.081 *
Say: “If (Allah) Most Gracious had a son, I would be the first to worship.”

Do all of you believe this? Would you, indeed, be the first to worship the Son of God if it could be so shown?

Peace be with you,
RyanL

 

[rdscheirer]

I believe we have to remember that there are several (maybe hundreds) of testifiers to the resurection. There is only one testifier to Mohamadiam. The Gospels, writings of the early church fathers and Roman history all support the fact that Jesus is the SON OF GOD and died for our sins. He rose again from the dead because he is GOD. Mohamadism where they worship Mohamed(sic) as the prophet of god comes from a man who historically embraced the Judeo-Christians but as he found himself to be not accepted by them began to become more violent and advocate conversion to Mohamadism by the sword. Luckily for him he was a very astute military man and everntually spread the worship of him to a large part of the world

 

[iamrefreshed]

RyanL:

Just ran across this in my reading of the Qur’an:

Do all of you believe this? Would you, indeed, be the first to worship the Son of God if it could be so shown?

Peace be with you,
RyanL

Hello Ryan. Really, Corpus Christi? After 42 years I just experienced my first Corpus Christi procession. I have no words to describe the feeling. I do know I want to feel that way EVERYDAY!

I’m curious to find another Catholic opinion on the Qur’an. I own, and have read the Shakir translation.

Do you get the feeling of older religions copied and put to paper? I get a very strong feeling of plagerism (sp?) and revisionist history. Would you agree?

 

[RyanL]

iamrefreshed:

Do you get the feeling of older religions copied and put to paper? I get a very strong feeling of plagerism (sp?) and revisionist history. Would you agree?

Well…to be blunt…yup. I think Muhammad was misinformed about a number of things by not-so-good christians. Take Mary, for example. He seems to confuse Mary with Miriam of the Old Testament. I’ll showyou what I mean:

    At length she brought (the babe) to her people,       carrying him (in her arms), They said: "O **Mary!**       Truly a strange thing has thou brought!       "O **sister of Aaron**, thy father was not a man of evil,       nor your mother a woman unchaste!"  
                                             -- Sura 19:27-28

And Mary, the daughter of `Imran, …
– Sura 66:12

Miriam was the sister of Aaron and Moses. Mary was not. They were separated by some 1400 years. Their names do sound alike, though… In any case, here we see how Muhammad seems to have been led to believe that Miriam and Mary (Hebrew: Maryam) were the same person. Also, we know that Mary’s mother and father were Anna and Joachim (from the Proto-Evangelion of James and other traditions). What’s more, the Hadiths call Moses and Aaron the sons of 'Imran as well, further confusing the issue (sunnah.org/ibadaat/fasting/ascen3.htm ). I’m not an expert on the subject, but it sure does seem like the history got a bit cloudy when it was told to Muhammad.

Also, he seems to be under the notion that carnal relations were required to produce the Son of God. This is blasphemy in our beliefs, and yet this is exactly what he ascribes us as believing. Pure silliness. He also has an excessively basic understanding of Trinitarian Theology (thinking that 3 = 3 rather than 3 = 1), which leads to an outright rejection of it (and rightly so). He believes that we believe in more than one God, which again is blasphemy in both our faiths.

So…yeah…I suppose I believe it’s a muddled mix of what was actually the case. There’s some truth there, and they do indeed worship God - and fearfully so! As our Catechism states:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330
330 LG 16; cf. NA 3

The chasm is wide, but crossable. Or should I say…Cross-Able? Fine…lame pun…

May God bless you and your family richly,
RyanL

 

[RyanL]

OH! And I forgot the most heinous offense! They screw up the name of Jesus!

In Hebrew, it would be Yeheshua (with the glutteral stop at the end - Yehesh-UA). In the Qur’an, He’s called Isa (with the glutteral stop at the beginning - EEsau). In doing this, they draw a mistaken and quite horrible parallel with Esau (from Jacob and Esau). As there are NO other Esaus in the bible, it is clear that this is a mistake made by Muhammad and not an alternate spelling of a common name. No Jew in their right mind would name their kid Esau! He was the enemy of Jacob, the father of their nation! Again, I think it was language problems combined with an un-discipled christian telling Muhammad what we believe that led to all of the errors. Or, it could have been that Jews were saying Jesus’ name was Esau in order to link Him to one accursed by Judaism.

In any event, ***we ***know Jesus’ name because our Early Church Fathers thought He was God, and preserved His name for us in detail and in many verifiable documents. Muslims have no reason to claim they know the name of Jesus with any such certitude, but rather because “it was revealed” to them, ours cannot be believed - which is circular logic. How do you know the Qur’an is true? Because Muhammad says it is. How do you know Muhammad is true? Because the Qur’an says he is.

Peace in Christ,
RyanL

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

RyanL: Do all of you believe this? Would you, indeed, be the first to worship the Son of God if it could be so shown?

Jermin Savory: Ryan don’t bother showing, I’ve seen the highest level of catholic apologist in action and its still not logical in explanation. Now witht he above sentense, Yes, its a verse from the Qur’an we believe it, however you fail to realize the verse is actually out of context. This verse is based on those who think that Jesus (P) is God and the verse is telling them that if he really had a son, the first to worship them would be those true believers (Muslims) who are closest to Allah.
**
Rdscheirer:** I believe we have to remember that there are several (maybe hundreds) of testifiers to the resurection. There is only one testifier to Mohamadiam. The Gospels, writings of the early church fathers and Roman history all support the fact that Jesus is the SON OF GOD and died for our sins. He rose again from the dead because he is GOD. Mohamadism where they worship Mohamed(sic) as the prophet of god comes from a man who historically embraced the Judeo-Christians but as he found himself to be not accepted by them began to become more violent and advocate conversion to Mohamadism by the sword. Luckily for him he was a very astute military man and everntually spread the worship of him to a large part of the world
**
Jermin Savor:** Rdscheirer, there are 14 lies in one paragraph of your passage brother, and you would like to be a part of this discussion? I don’t discuss matters with people who cannot be trusted, please tell the truth if you would like an honest response. The sorces of the above passage has got to be anti-islam at its best. There couldn’t be anything more away from the truth that what you’ve just stated above.

Iamrefreshed: Do you get the feeling of older religions copied and put to paper? I get a very strong feeling of plagerism (sp?) and revisionist history. Would you agree?

Jermin Savory: P—R—O----V----E it. Very baseless claim.

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

RyanL: In Hebrew, it would be Yeheshua (with the glutteral stop at the end - Yehesh-UA). In the Qur’an, He’s called Isa (with the glutteral stop at the beginning - EEsau). In doing this, they draw a mistaken and quite horrible parallel with Esau (from Jacob and Esau). As there are NO other Esaus in the bible, it is clear that this is a mistake made by Muhammad and not an alternate spelling of a common name. No Jew in their right mind would name their kid Esau! He was the enemy of Jacob, the father of their nation! Again, I think it was language problems combined with an un-discipled christian telling Muhammad what we believe that led to all of the errors. Or, it could have been that Jews were saying Jesus’ name was Esau in order to link Him to one accursed by Judaism.

Jermin Savory: This is a very Horrible attempt. You’ve got to come better than that. RyanL, I have Days of the Qur’an memorized. I memorize qur’an. I recite Qur’an for hours every night and sometimes morning. I happen to be very good with pronunciation of Arabic words and nothing you’ve said above makes sense. That is what you would tell to someone who doesn’t know better. Thats an argument that you would give to another christian because he wouldn’t be interested in knowing the truth. Poor attempt, very poor.

To the people that I’m discussing with like RyanL and Iamrefreshed ect, I’m sitting at my computer at the moment with 2 christians, 1 catholic and one trinitarian and your responses are creating a good laugh for them. I’m having them look over your responses to me and boy are you creating laughs. One of my buddys here (Catholic) can’t believe the answers you were giving to my questions, being that you are a catholic just like he is. And its funny how he says that you’ve not a good representative of catholicism.

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

RyanL: Well…to be blunt…yup. I think Muhammad was misinformed about a number of things by not-so-good christians. Take Mary, for example. He seems to confuse Mary with Miriam of the Old Testament. I’ll showyou what I mean

Jermin Savory: I had this discussion with one of your catholic friends on this forum. Perhaps i’ll past my response again.

My freind, the argument that because the Qur’an came after the Bible it Must be copied from the bible is not logical, especially when you analyze the Qur’an. Allow me to educate you Brother. 1. The thought that Muhummad (P) authored the Qur’an or copied from other sources can be disproved by the single historical fact that he was illiterate. 2. The Arabic version of the Bible was not present at the time of Prophet Muhummad (pbuh). The earliest Arabic version of the Old Testament is that of R. Saadias Gaon of 900 C.E. - more than 250 years after the death of our beloved Prophet. 3. Similarities between the Qur’an and the Bible does not necessarily mean that the former has been copied from the latter. 4. there are some similar parallels between the Qur’an and the Bible but this is not sufficient to accuse Muhummad (P) of compiling or copying from the Bible. The same logic would then also be applicable to teachings of Christianity and Judaism and thus one could wrongly claim that Jesus (pbuh) was not a genuine Prophet (God forbid) and that he simply copied from the Old Testament.

A further Correction is that According to the Bible both the sun and the moon emit their own light. In the Book of Genesis, chapter 1:16 says, “And God made two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night”.

“Science tells us today that the moon does not have its own light. This confirms the Qur’anic concept that the light of the moon is a reflected light. To think that 1400 years ago, Prophet Muhummad (P) corrected these scientific errors in the Bible and then copied such corrected passages in the Qur’an is to think of something impossible.” So as you can see, to say that the Qur’an was copied from the bible is not possible because the Prophet (P) would have had many mistakes to correct before he copied them into the Qur’an. Please think about your arguments before you put them forth.

 

[fatuma]

the history about caling mary sister of Aaron is not a mixed-up. When the Quran calls Mary this, it does not mean literally mean his sister, this is a term of respect and honor, like when the bible calls rightous men ‘son of god’.(or something like that).

wa salam

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

RyanL: Miriam was the sister of Aaron and Moses. Mary was not. They were separated by some 1400 years. Their names do sound alike, though… In any case, here we see how Muhammad seems to have been led to believe that Miriam and Mary (Hebrew: Maryam) were the same person. Also, we know that Mary’s mother and father were Anna and Joachim (from the Proto-Evangelion of James and other traditions). What’s more, the Hadiths call Moses and Aaron the sons of 'Imran as well, further confusing the issue

Jermin Savory: Incorrect. Please learn Arabic, or atleast pay attention to the verses of the Qur’an. Don’t take the concordist approach to the Qur’an you’ll just be fooling yourself. You and Christian missionaries say that Prophet Muhammad (p) did not know the difference between Mary the mother of Jesus (p) and Miriam the sister of Aaron (pbuh). The time span between both was more than a thousand years. In the Arabic construction of the sentence, sister is also considered as a descendant. Thus, when the people said to Mary, Ukhta Haroon i.e. ‘sister of Aaron’ it actually means descendant of Aaron (pbuh). This shows how Much you know the Qur’an RyanL.