Islam and the Crucifixion

[fatuma]

The quran and the bible are two very different books. Here are some examples:

1. The prophets : in the quran the prophets are held in the highest esteem. They are the best of their nation and committed no grave sins. They made mistakes because they were human but in the end they were chosen as prophets by God because they were the most righteous and obedient of God’s servants. They were as humanly possible perfect men. in the bible the prophets are just like you and me, they are average people who at times committed grave sins like incest. The quran also has certain prophets that the bible doesn’t recognize as prophets.
2. Angles and Jinn : the quran states that angles are beings created from light, they have no free will and are always obedient to God. They carry various duties such a s the angle of death, the angles that bring rain, thunder etc. The Quran also talks about other beings called jiins, creatures created from smokeless fire that have free will and live in what I think to be an alternate universe. They get married have kids, eat sleep and they are also commanded to worship God. On the Day of Judgment they too will be judged. Satan is a jinn and not an angle. The bible on the other hand says that angles have free will because Satan was an angle that disobey God and refused to bow to Adam (as) thus was kicked out of heaven.
3. The bible is composed of many books by many authors and went under revise throughout the centuries. The quran on the other hand is one book, one author (God) and has not undergone any revisions.
4. The Bible and the Quran have two very different views on who God is, what it takes to be saved, what happens to the soul when it dies, what happens on the day of judgment, the roles of society and religion etc, etc, etc.

wa salam

 

[chb03c]

fatuma:

1. Angles and Jinn : the quran states that angles are beings created from light, they have no free will and are always obedient to God. They carry various duties such a s the angle of death, the angles that bring rain, thunder etc. The Quran also talks about other beings called jiins, creatures created from smokeless fire that have free will and live in what I think to be an alternate universe. They get married have kids, eat sleep and they are also commanded to worship God. On the Day of Judgment they too will be judged. Satan is a jinn and not an angle. The bible on the other hand says that angles have free will because Satan was an angle that disobey God and refused to bow to Adam (as) thus was kicked out of heaven.

The Bible does not say angels have free will. We believe God took away of there free will as a result of Satan abusing it.

 

[fatuma]

took away, meaning that they originally had free will, the quran says that they never had free will and that satan is not an angle but a jinn.

wa salam

 

[RyanL]

Jermin Savory: This is a very Horrible attempt. You’ve got to come better than that. RyanL, I have Days of the Qur’an memorized. I memorize qur’an. I recite Qur’an for hours every night and sometimes morning.

Completely irrelevent.
Jermin Savory:

I happen to be very good with pronunciation of Arabic words and nothing you’ve said above makes sense.

This is what I learned roughly a year ago from a man fluent in Hebrew, Arabic, English, Italian, Latin, and Greek. Personally, my English is good, my Spanish is moderate, my Greek is growing, my Latin is feeble, and my Hebrew and Arabic non-existant. I never claimed to be an expert at these things, and at several points even declared exactly that. I am also not a composer, but I can still recognize music. I have never built a car, but I can recognize when I’m driving a good one. One does not need to be a master of languages to see that the names are not the same.
Jermin Savory:

That is what you would tell to someone who doesn’t know better. Thats an argument that you would give to another christian because he wouldn’t be interested in knowing the truth. Poor attempt, very poor.

And yet, you make no attempt at refuting what I have said…
Jermin Savory:

To the people that I’m discussing with like RyanL and Iamrefreshed ect, I’m sitting at my computer at the moment with 2 christians, 1 catholic and one trinitarian and your responses are creating a good laugh for them. I’m having them look over your responses to me and boy are you creating laughs. One of my buddys here (Catholic) can’t believe the answers you were giving to my questions, being that you are a catholic just like he is. And its funny how he says that you’ve not a good representative of catholicism.

Now you are betraying your heart, Jermin. Mocking and sneering does not become a man of God. I would encourage your “Catholic friend” to meet me in the Apologetics Forum to discuss the areas he believes I am teaching incorrectly. Tell him to bring his Catechism and a Snickers, as he won’t be going anywhere for a while.

Now, please act in accordance with your faith. If belittling mockery is in accordance with your faith, please let me know (as, again, I’m not expert).

RyanL

 

[Jermin_Savory]

**In the name of Allah

RyanL:** Now you are betraying your heart, Jermin. Mocking and sneering does not become a man of God. I would encourage your “Catholic friend” to meet me in the Apologetics Forum to discuss the areas he believes I am teaching incorrectly. Tell him to bring his Catechism and a Snickers, as he won’t be going anywhere for a while. Now, please act in accordance with your faith. If belittling mockery is in accordance with your faith, please let me know (as, again, I’m not expert).

**
Jermin Savory**: I won’t fall for your guilt hypnotism, I guess i’m really suppose to feel as though i’m not acting in accordance with my faith right? NO. You are being dishonest for I never mocked you.

**
RyanL:** This is what I learned roughly a year ago from a man fluent in Hebrew, Arabic, English, Italian, Latin, and Greek. Personally, my English is good, my Spanish is moderate, my Greek is growing, my Latin is feeble, and my Hebrew and Arabic non-existant. I never claimed to be an expert at these things, and at several points even declared exactly that. I am also not a composer, but I can still recognize music. I have never built a car, but I can recognize when I’m driving a good one. One does not need to be a master of languages to see that the names are not the same.
**

Jermin Savory:** Are the languages the same? So because you learned from an man who was fluent in English , Italian, Latin, and Greek he must be right, Right? So becaue Isa is not the same in the hebrew language pronuncing Jesus that means it is wrong right? How is the name of Jesus (P) relevant to the whole discussion?

 

[RyanL]

Jermin,
Let’s go by these one by one:
Jermin Savory:

My freind, the argument that because the Qur’an came after the Bible it Must be copied from the bible is not logical, especially when you analyze the Qur’an. Allow me to educate you Brother. 1. The thought that Muhummad (P) authored the Qur’an or copied from other sources can be disproved by the single historical fact that he was illiterate.

Muhammad was illiterate? P–R–O–V–E it. The LDS also claim that Joseph Smith was “un-lettered” in order to “prove” their texts were divinely revealed… Also, could you please tell me the word the Qur’an translates as “un-lettered” and the word translated as “gentile”? Remember, you’re the expert.
Jermin Savory:

1. The Arabic version of the Bible was not present at the time of Prophet Muhummad (pbuh). The earliest Arabic version of the Old Testament is that of R. Saadias Gaon of 900 C.E. - more than 250 years after the death of our beloved Prophet.

You don’t need to have a written copy to have heard the story. I don’t have a written copy of the Jackson trial (and probably never will), but I have heard the story…
Jermin Savory:

1. Similarities between the Qur’an and the Bible does not necessarily mean that the former has been copied from the latter.

True, it is not necessarily the case…but it lends credibility to the claim. Again, if it were copied, the errors wouldn’t be in the Qur’an. It appears paraphrased (poorly, I might add).
Jermin Savory:

1. there are some similar parallels between the Qur’an and the Bible but this is not sufficient to accuse Muhummad (P) of compiling or copying from the Bible. The same logic would then also be applicable to teachings of Christianity and Judaism and thus one could wrongly claim that Jesus (pbuh) was not a genuine Prophet (God forbid) and that he simply copied from the Old Testament.

1. Everyone in the Catholic Church claims that Christianity came from Judaism.
2. Jesus didn’t write the New Testament.
3. Jesus quoted the Old Testament with accuracy.
4. The writings describing Jesus’ life started being recorded within 15 years (and that’s a LATE estimate). When did the first person write about the life of Muhammad (please tell me, as I’m not an expert)?

Jermin Savory:

To think that 1400 years ago, Prophet Muhummad (P) corrected these scientific errors in the Bible and then copied such corrected passages in the Qur’an is to think of something impossible." So as you can see, to say that the Qur’an was copied from the bible is not possible because the Prophet (P) would have had many mistakes to correct before he copied them into the Qur’an.

Anyone who claims that the Bible is a science text does not understand why it was written.
Jermin Savory:

Please think about your arguments before you put them forth.

Ditto.

Again, you are betraying your heart with your mocking tone. Please act like a man of God, and not a petulant child.

RyanL

 

[RyanL]

Jermin Savory:

So becaue Isa is not the same in the hebrew language pronuncing Jesus that means it is wrong right? How is the name of Jesus (P) relevant to the whole discussion?

Because if Isa is not Jesus’ name (which it’s not), the Qur’an is not God’s Word. Think critically. If every word in the Qur’an is true, and this particular word from the Qur’an is false…what does that say about the Qur’an?

RyanL

 

[fatuma]

Thank you for the link RyanL but my questions have still not been answered. I would greatly appreciate it if when the question is answer that it would be done using your own words and feelings because I don’t do very well with debating like the way you and Jermine do.

wa salam( someone asked me what this meant, it means ‘in peace’) here is a link to other islamic phrases inorder for us to communicate better.
geocities.com/hayatanneosman/Short-Phrases.html

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah
**
**
RyanL: Muhammad was illiterate? P–R–O–V–E it. The LDS also claim that Joseph Smith was “un-lettered” in order to “prove” their texts were divinely revealed… Also, could you please tell me the word the Qur’an translates as “un-lettered” and the word translated as “gentile”? Remember, you’re the expert.

**
Jermin Savory:** And your point is? Did the proof work? Thats what you need to focus on, whether the proof works not how many people tried the same way to prove it. I never said I’m an expert, you just can’t fool me with my own Qur’an nor try to reinterpret the Qur’an like you’ve tried to do earlier. How is the Arabic for “Unlettered” or “Gentile” going to help you in this discussion?

**
RyanL:** You don’t need to have a written copy to have heard the story. I don’t have a written copy of the Jackson trial (and probably never will), but I have heard the story.
**

Jermin Savory:** The Point is that He spoke only arabic and the People around him spoke only arabic, for him to copy or try to hear from other christians as you’ve stated would be nonsense to say. The day-to-day life of the Prophet was an open book for all to see. In fact a revelation came asking people to give the Prophet (pbuh) privacy in his own home. If the Prophet had been meeting people who told him what to say as a revelation from God, this would not have been hidden for very long. The enemies of the Prophet kept a close watch on him in order to find proof for their claim that he was a liar - they could not point out even a single instance when the Prophet (P) may have had a secret rendezvous with particular Jews and Christians. Then again, i’m no expert as you are no expert.

**
RyanL:** Anyone who claims that the Bible is a science text does not understand why it was written.

Jermin Savory: No, you’ve missed the point, the point was that the Prophet (P) couldn’t have copied or listen to Christians like you’ve stated.

RyanL: Again, you are betraying your heart with your mocking tone. Please act like a man of God, and not a petulant child.

Jermin Savory: Mocking Child? Please quote me! you are running out of words to say, thus you are finding fault with me now RyanL?

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

RyanL: Because if Isa is not Jesus’ name (which it’s not), the Qur’an is not God’s Word. Think critically. If every word in the Qur’an is true, and this particular word from the Qur’an is false…what does that say about the Qur’an?

**
Jermin Savory:** Actually, his proper name was Eesa which is in Arabic, or Esau in the Hebrew language and classical Yeheshua. and I quote this “Transforming “Esau” to (J)esu(s) - Jesus - makes it unique. This unique (?) name has gone out of currency among the Jews and the Christians from the 2nd century after Christ. Among the Jews, because it came to be a name of ill - repute, the name of one who blasphemed in Jewry; and among the Christians because it came to be the proper name of their God. The Muslim will not hesitate to name his son Eesa because it is an honored name, the name of a righteous servant of the Lord.” So Actually his real name was Eesa (P) like how we Muslims call him.

 

[manx]

Jermin and Munawar,

If you are saying that Jesus DID NOT die for my sins? So how can I attain salvation? I am really confused.

maybe me dumb.

manx

 

[iamrefreshed]

In the name of Allah

RyanL: Because if Isa is not Jesus’ name (which it’s not), the Qur’an is not God’s Word. Think critically. If every word in the Qur’an is true, and this particular word from the Qur’an is false…what does that say about the Qur’an?

Jermin Savory: Actually, his proper name was Eesa which is in Arabic, or Esau in the Hebrew language and classical Yeheshua. and I quote this “Transforming “Esau” to (J)esu(s) - Jesus - makes it unique. This unique (?) name has gone out of currency among the Jews and the Christians from the 2nd century after Christ. Among the Jews, because it came to be a name of ill - repute, the name of one who blasphemed in Jewry; and among the Christians because it came to be the proper name of their God. The Muslim will not hesitate to name his son Eesa because it is an honored name, the name of a righteous servant of the Lord.” So Actually his real name was Eesa (P) like how we Muslims call him.

Jermin, I mean no offense but you are doing Islam no good here. Maybe you could enlist some help from Munawar?

You are still evading questions.

 

[Booklover]

In the name of Allah

Jermin Savory: First, it is not possible to be fully man and fully God. Don’t you know that you are contradicting yourself? God is eternal, to be fully man is to have a beginning and to be appointed a day to die. God doesn’t die therefore he was not a man. How dare you say such things about God! And are you sayng that God died? and if your answer is that God didn’t die on the cross, Jesus (P) died, then Jesus (P) isn’t God + one man can’t carry the sins of the world. And another point is, for the alleged “Crucifixion” of Christ, if it were to have sacrifical credit, it was suppose to be done when Jesus (P) was a child and that is according to Exodus 12:5.]

**With God nothing is impossible! YES, GOD CAN BE FULLY GOD AND MAN! AND AS FOR DARING US “TO SAY SUCH THINGS ABOUT GOD” HOW DARE YOU TO INSINUATE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS NOT GOD AND DIDN’T DIE ON THE CROSS FOR OUR SALVATION! BUT ON THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN! ALLELUIA! AND NOW SITS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER, THE FIRST PERSON, OF THE BLESSED TRINITY. SINCE AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD, GOD IS ONE GOD IN THREE DIVINE PERSONS. AMEN! GOD SAID IT AND I BELIEVE AND THAT’S ENOUGH FOR ME. AGAIN, I SAY HOW DARE YOU TELL GOD THAT HE IS NOT OMNIPOTENT AND THAT HIS POWERS ARE LIMITED!:banghead: **

 

[RyanL]

fatuma:

Thank you for the link RyanL but my questions have still not been answered. I would greatly appreciate it if when the question is answer that it would be done using your own words and feelings because I don’t do very well with debating like the way you and Jermine do.

wa salam( someone asked me what this meant, it means ‘in peace’) here is a link to other islamic phrases inorder for us to communicate better.
geocities.com/hayatanneosman/Short-Phrases.html

Marhaba Fatuma,

I’m afraid that I’m not quite sure of your question. Could you please restate it so that I may offer what I know? Shukran jazilan.

Ma’assalaama and Pax,
RyanL

 

[RyanL]

Jermin Savory:

Jermin Savory: Mocking Child? Please quote me! you are running out of words to say, thus you are finding fault with me now RyanL?

• I don’t discuss matters with people who cannot be trusted
• There couldn’t be anything more away from the truth that what you’ve just stated above.
• This is a very Horrible attempt.
• That is what you would tell to someone who doesn’t know better. - Thats an argument that you would give to another christian because he wouldn’t be interested in knowing the truth.
• I’m sitting at my computer at the moment with 2 christians, 1 catholic and one trinitarian and your responses are creating a good laugh for them. I’m having them look over your responses to me and boy are you creating laughs. One of my buddys here (Catholic) can’t believe the answers you were giving to my questions, being that you are a catholic just like he is. And its funny how he says that you’ve not a good representative of catholicism.
• Please learn Arabic, or atleast pay attention
• I won’t fall for your guilt hypnotism
• You are being dishonest
• And your point is?

Jermin,
The above quotes are all yours, and all appear mocking in one way or another, some moreso than others (especially the “we are all laughing at you” quote). I am not “finding fault” because I have no argument - I have not found fault with Fatuma (who has a keen mind and a gentle way). If you wish to continue with haughty arrogance, that’s fine; but please tune it down a notch. I will discuss as long as you are reasonable.
RyanL

 

[Booklover]

manx:

Jermin and Munawar,

If you are saying that Jesus DID NOT die for my sins? So how can I attain salvation? I am really confused.

maybe me dumb.

manx

MANX, DO YOURSELF A FAVOR. DON’T LISTEN TO WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT JESUS. BELIEVE ME, JESUS MOST CERTAINLY DIED FOR YOU AND FOR ALL OF US, EVEN FOR THOSE WHO HATE HIM AND DON’T BELIEVE IN HIM! THE ONLY WAY THAT MUSLIMS CAN “PROVE” THEIR CLAIMS IS BY DISCREDITING, EITHER OUR BIBLE OR JESUS CHRIST AS SAVIOR. DON’T BE TAKEN IN BY THEIR BASELESS ARGUMENTS! THEY CAN’T PROVE THEIR CLAIMS WITH ANY “REAL PROOF” BECAUSE THERE ISN’T ANY!

OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST TOLD HIS APOSTLES TO "GO AND MAKE DISCIPLES OF ALL THE NATIONS AND TEACH THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THE COMMANDS I GAVE YOU. THOSE WHO BELIEVE WILL BE SAVED, THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE WILL BE CONDEMNED!

**DON’T LET THESE WOLVES IN SHEEP’S CLOTHING ROB YOU OF YOUR FAITH IN JESUS! THEY COME HERE HOPING TO POISON OUR FAITH IN HIM BY SOWING DOUBTS IN OUR MINDS. OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST TOLD US THAT THERE WOULD BE MANY FALSE PROPHETS CLAIMING TO COME FROM GOD, AND TO BEWARE OF THEM! **

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

Jermin Savory:

…My point is, according to your scriptures, in order for this “Crucifixion” story of Christianity, if it were to have sacrifical credit, it was suppose to be done when Jesus (P) was alive…

Before this particular question can be answered, you must identify these alleged requirements for Christ’s sacrifice to be sacrificial “according to our Scriptures”. The verse you quoted referred to the passover lamb, which is certainly a foreshadowing of Christ’s Sacrifice, but not Christ Himself. Perhaps you meant a different Scripture reference?
Jermin Savory:

…I’m in awe with the things that i’m hearing, my heart is racing at the things that i’m hearing in this forum about God…

This is good, I’m in awe of God too.
Jermin Savory:

…Saying that God is fully man and fully God is against all basic teachings of logic…

Please identify what basic teachings of logic indicate that God can not or may not assume a Human Nature.
Jermin Savory:

…May Allah deal justly with Christianity for the things they utter against His majesty…

May God deal Mercifully with all who utter things against His Majesty, whether they be Christian, Muslim or other.

Eternal Father, I offer to You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, our lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world. For the sake of His Sorrowful Passion, have Mercy on us and on the whole world.
Jermin Savory:

…you said that Jesus who (P) was fully man experienced death,…

Correct.
Jermin Savory:

…and before you said that Jesus (P) is God and that he was eternal…

Also correct.
Jermin Savory:

…how does someone be uncreated, eternal and die? …

To be uncreated and eternal, and to be able to experience death are two completely separate and unrelated, but not contradictorary things.

Jesus is uncreated and eternal because He is the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity who is God. Jesus died because he is also fully Man with a Human Body and Soul who experienced a separation of His Body and Soul, just as you and I will. Jesus’ Death does not mean that He ceased to exist any more than your or my deaths will mean that we will cease to exist, only that we will exist differently for a time, as did Christ.

We do not say the other two Persons of the Blessed Trinity, the Father and the Holy Spirit have died because they have not assumed a Human Nature, and so do not have a Human Body or Soul which may experience a separation.

 

[RyanL]

Jermin Savory: Actually, his proper name was Eesa which is in Arabic, or Esau in the Hebrew language and classical Yeheshua. and I quote this “Transforming “Esau” to (J)esu(s) - Jesus - makes it unique. This unique (?) name has gone out of currency among the Jews and the Christians from the 2nd century after Christ. Among the Jews, because it came to be a name of ill - repute, the name of one who blasphemed in Jewry; and among the Christians because it came to be the proper name of their God. The Muslim will not hesitate to name his son Eesa because it is an honored name, the name of a righteous servant of the Lord.” So Actually his real name was Eesa (P) like how we Muslims call him.

I’ll say this again so that you know what to ask Munawar. Jesus was not named “Esau”. Esau was the enemy of “Jacob”, a patriarck of the Jews who would be renamed “Israel”. Esau is the enemy of Israel. Would any patriotic and loyal American now name his child “Osama Bin Laden Smith” or “Saddam Husein Jenkins”? Not a chance. It is illogical and without basis for a parent to name their child after their sworn enemy. There are several James in the Bible, a couple of Marys, and even a few Joshuas - but there’s only one Esau. It would be like me naming my child LuciferL. It just wouldn’t happen.

Now I ask, what’s more believable:

1. Those who believed Him to be God remembered His name accurately, and wrote it down, preached it, and taught it to others who have written it down; and this in addition to secular historians of the era (Josephus, Tacitus, Pleny the Younger, Lucian, Mara bar Serapion, Thallus, Phlegon, Seutonius, Celsus, and others).
   or
2. Those who wished to defame Him or did not know Him well called Him “Esau” and Muhammad recorded what he heard.

RyanL

 

[RyanL]

Jermin Savory:

You and Christian missionaries say that Prophet Muhammad (p) did not know the difference between Mary the mother of Jesus (p) and Miriam the sister of Aaron (pbuh). The time span between both was more than a thousand years. In the Arabic construction of the sentence, sister is also considered as a descendant. Thus, when the people said to Mary, Ukhta Haroon i.e. ‘sister of Aaron’ it actually means descendant of Aaron (pbuh).

My Protestant brotheren won’t let me get away with simply saying that “brother” or “sister” means distant relation when I speak of Jesus’ brothers and sisters (they think Mary had other kids) - I see no reason why I should let you get away with that now. In order to show them that the word has many meanings within the bible, I have to show several other verses which clearly show what I say to be the case (‘brother’ is used where a previous chapter gives the lineage of the same people as ‘son of a brother’ or ‘nephew’), I have to demonstrate from the text that it can’t mean what they say as that would make other verses illogical (120 kids from the same mother, etc.), I have to use typology and prophesy to show how it would be contradictory, I have to show extra-biblical writings which unanimously verify that this is the case, and I have to demonstrate this to the satisfaction of my Protestant brother.

I now invite you to show me that Mary is not the actual daughter of 'Imram according to the Qur’an, and that Aaron is not her actual brother according to the Qur’an.

Also, I ran across this on another site:

After the death of his grandfather, his uncle Abu Talib then assumed responsibility for raising Muhammad. Abu Talib was a businessman involved in trade so it is likely that Muhammad went with him on business trips and encountered both Jews, 280 miles to the north in Madina, and Christians also to the north and to the south in Nejran. History tells us that when he was 12 he accompanied his uncle on a trading caravan to Syria.

Is this true? Wouldn’t this lend credibility to the argument that Muhammad wrote down what he had learned from Jews or Christians? I ask because I cannot seem to find a good history of his life - the closest I could find was something someone wrote well over one hundred years after Muhammad’s death…

RyanL

 

[Lance]

I don’t care what Muslims think about the Crucifixion since I believe their religion is false and the Koran was written by man and not inspired by God. Therefore why should I care what they believe since I believe it to be false and am not about to change my mind.