I
inJESUS
Guest
and still no answer…
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R
ralphinal
Guest
SO how was she pregnant by God?
I
Isa_Almisry
Guest
I
Isa_Almisry
Guest
Did you bother to check the dates for the Douay Rheims and the NEW (hint, hing) as to what was “changed.” “begotten” was dropped in the latter, not interpolated in the former as you suggest.
The verse in question, from critical editions:
ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3:16 Greek NT: WH / NA27 / UBS4 with Concordance
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3:16 Greek NT: Westcott/Hort with Concordance
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3:16 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed. with Strong’s Numbers
οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3:16 Greek NT: Byzantine / Majority Text (1995) with Strong’s Numbers
ουτως γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον αυτου τον μονογενη εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον
Strong’s Number 3439 (μονογενής: only begotten, child)
The manuscripts these editions are based on predate Jerome.
P
planten
Guest
Btw, what’s up with you all with the font colors?
I am a father. I may have lived 29 years before I begot, but I was not a father a moment before. As the Son is “Eternally begotten of the Father,” Jesus the Son of God was eternally the Son, and there was never when He was not, and the Father is eternally Father. There is no “act” anymore than God being all seeing or all hearing involves Him having eyes or ears, or an act of sight or sound. The Trinity is eternal, actually outside of time.
Clearly you don’t know what you are talking about.
You mean there was no time difference between the father and the son. Both existed at the same time, through eternity? Then the father rmay not have had to beget Jesus because he was already existing along with the father.
P
Psalter
Guest
You mean there was no time difference between the father and the son. Both existed at the same time, through eternity? Then the father rmay not have had to beget Jesus because he was already existing along with the father.
YES. The Son is “eternally begotten” of the Father. The Son has always co-existed with the Father from all eternity.
Watch this video, he explains it:
video.google.com/videosearch?q=father+zakaria&emb=0&aq=f#
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planten
Guest
Btw, what’s up with you all with the font colors?
I am a father. I may have lived 29 years before I begot, but I was not a father a moment before. As the Son is “Eternally begotten of the Father,” Jesus the Son of God was eternally the Son, and there was never when He was not, and the Father is eternally Father. There is no “act” anymore than God being all seeing or all hearing involves Him having eyes or ears, or an act of sight or sound. The Trinity is eternal, actually outside of time.
Clearly you don’t know what you are talking about.
**When Jesus said “I ascend to my father and your father, my God and your God.” That made you all brothers of jesus because your father was same. Did Jesus specify that He was the begotten son while others were only adopted sons.
I don;t believe Jesus ever said that he was the begotten son of God. Could you show anything in support please?**
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
You mean there was no time difference between the father and the son. Both existed at the same time, through eternity? Then the father rmay not have had to beget Jesus because he was already existing along with the father.
If the Father did not beget the Son He would not exist, and the Father would, well, not be the Father.
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Angelos
Guest
Yes, Jesus accentuated that He was the only begotten of the Father by not saying “I ascend to OUR Father and OUR God”.
Here we go:
John 10:30
** I** and the Father are one.
Jesus did not say “WE and the Father are one”. Why? Because He is the ONLY Son as the second person of the Holy Trinity.
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
I think several verses on theis have been posted for you before, so I’ll just limit it to this:
John 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
13 So the Pharisees said to Him, “You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true.” 14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 “You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone. 16 “But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me. 17 “Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true. 18 “I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me.” 19 So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.” 20 These words He spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one seized Him, because His hour had not yet come.
21 Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.” 22 So the Jews were saying, “Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23
And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” 25 So they were saying to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus said to them, “What have I been saying to you from the beginning? 26 “I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.” 27 They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father.
28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. 29 “And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.” 30 As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him
31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 “The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. 37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 “But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 “Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
48 The Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 “But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’ 53 “Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?”
54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; 55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple…
cont…
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25 “He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal. 26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
27 “Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 28 “Father, glorify Your name.” Then a voice came out of heaven: “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.” 29 So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, “An angel has spoken to Him.”
30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31 “Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. 34 The crowd then answered Him, “We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”
35 So Jesus said to them, “For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36 “While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.”
27 “Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 28 “Father, glorify Your name.” Then a voice came out of heaven: “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.” 29 So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, “An angel has spoken to Him.”
30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31 “Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. 34 The crowd then answered Him, “We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”
35 So Jesus said to them, “For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36 “While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.”
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Analyzer
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**
This is all you got to say? lol
My answers (addressed towards people like you) were indeed and basically based on the Bible/Biblical langauge because to me you have not understood your own Bible properly first, let alone Islam/Islamic scriptures.**
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Analyzer
Guest
**
The people who were going to stone Jesus were enemies of Jesus. They can lie too and they did lie. No? Ofcourse yes. So same kind of people preferred Jesus the Son of God over Jesus the Son of Father (Barabbas) when it was asked who really deserves to die through crucifixion?
It seems, unknowingly you actually are with those criminals. You trust them and not Jesus.
Do you agree with whatever enemies of Jesus accused him? or you want to go by what Jesus said and explained clearly in John 10 (23-30) where he refuted their allegations by even quoting their/his Holy Torah (“You are gods”) which cannot be broken?
The reason I quoted only that part was to show where and how Jesus quoted “Ye (Jews) are gods”. assuming you know/will know the context eventually because it was you who asked me who said it. **
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ralphinal
Guest
Jesus said he was the son of God. HE also said he would die on the cross and rise again. He also said that he and the Father are ONE. ONE. ONE. Jesus told us that when we see him, we see the Father. It is through Jesus that we are adopted sons of God.
I am sorry. All muslims have been told a horrible lie. Every one of you thinks that Jesus was just a man. He was not. He is GOD. He is the salvation of all the world. Only through him can men be saved. I pity all of you. You follow the teachings of a man that was not holy, was not pure, was not kind. You seek to show the world the truth of Islam, but that truth is limited. It pales next to the bright light of Jesus.
To the original topic of this thread, Jesus was born of a Virgin to be True man. His father is God, but it was not by sex that God made him. It was by a singular, unique act. He inherited humanity from his mother. He was divine because of his father. Jesus is the Son of God. He is God incarnate.
Please read the entire Bible, if it is not banned where you live. Read it all. Not a verse here and a verse there. What you will find is that God does not consider us slaves. He loves us as children. A master never loves a slave as he does a child, and a slave never loves his master as a child loves his father.
Please, before it is too late, learn of Jesus. The real, true Jesus, not the one created by Muhammed to subjugate men, but the one sent by the Father to free us all.
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Angelos
Guest
Is this all you can say? LOL
We have seen with our own eyes that you are ashamed of your own scripture (the Koran), by the help of which you can answer none of our questions.
We have also seen that you know nothing about the Bible. Taking a few verses of the New Testament and ignoring their context for deliberate perversion have become your bad habit. This but proves that you are a dishonest Muslim poster who is ignorant of the fact that faulty Islamic allegations derived from old Chrisitan heresies have already been debunked.
Multiple nicks: multiple ignorance
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inJESUS
Guest
…still no answer…
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Angelos
Guest
This is a weak and ridiculous argument (not surprisingly coming from the essentially faulty Islamic reasoning!)
Those Jews wanted to stone Jesus not because they told lies about Jesus, but because they considered Jesus a liar because of His teaching!!! Jesus ascribed the holy name of God to Himself and said that God and He were ONE. Since Jews did not believe that Jesus was a divine person equal to the God of Israel, they concluded that Jesus blasphemed and deserved to die. This is so simple.
I agree with those Jews that Jesus claimed to be equal to God! Thus, they understood Jesus perfectly well when He claimed to be ONE with the Father. However, I disagree with those Jews that Jesus was making false claims about His identity and committing blasphemy. Jesus told the truth when He said He was a divine person.
You deliberately ignore the fact that Jesus never accused Jews of misunderstanding Him! He referred to the verse in a Psalm NOT to remark that Jews misunderstood Him, but to refute their accusation that Jesus had become blasphemous because of His statement:
John 10:31-33
The Jews then took up stones to stone him. Jesus answered them: Many good works I have showed you from my Father. For which of those works do you stone me? The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy: and because that thou being a man, makest thyself God.
Let’s read that verse in its context and see how your allegations are rebutted:
John 10:34-36
Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said, you are gods? If he called them gods to whom the word of God was spoken; and the scripture cannot be broken:** Do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest; because I said: I am the Son of God? **
Jesus’ point here is not to refute the claims of equality with God, but to remind those Jews of God’s words that sound similar to what Jesus says but are never considered blasphemous. Jesus’ divinity is endorsed by God His Father, who calls Him His Son. Consequently, Jesus’ statement cannot be regarded as blasphemous.
John 10:37-38
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe that the Father is in me and I in the Father.
Jesus insists that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. No ordinary man or prophet of God could make this claim!
P
planten
Guest
**Thanks angelos, Jesus never said that he was the begotten son of God and youhave failed to show anything. The rest is all made up or drived from your mind. “I and father are one” can have many meanings. Similarly, " I go to my father" is irrelevant. You could not show anything about the most serious of your beliefs that Jesus is a begotten son of God. I am surprised. You had nothing.
When Jesus never said that then why did you make it up? I am most interested in the words of Jesus himself if he ever said that he was the begotten son of God. **
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Angelos
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I did not know that you had difficulty understanding plain English:
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son: that whosoever believeth in him may not perish, but may have life everlasting. For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world: but that the world may be saved by him.
Planten, you are wasting your time by trying to conceal the truth and mislead some people.
A
Analyzer
Guest
**I am so surprised at your understanding that you consider the enemies of Jesus truthfull but not Jesus. Perhaps you do this either unkowingly or you are forced to do, in order to make an argument which is baseless.
Without pre-conceived ideas, if you read the whole context of John 10:30 (starting from verse 23, there you will see how Jesus easily refuted their allegation and make your argument baseless and meaningless.
Did Jesus really ascribed the holy name of God to Himself and said that God and He were ONE (in literal sense)? No.
Because after him saying “My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand.”, it makes no sense at all to claim in the same breath “The Father and I are one.” in literal sense, as the Father is greater than all, meaning greater than even Jesus, as the Father is, the Father and distinct being than Jesus. (Funny thing is in your so-called Trinitarian formula, the Father is always the first “person”. Why? Why he canot be second or third? )
If I take your supposition true that “Jesus ascribed the holy name of God to Himself and said that God and He were ONE.”**, then you actually are a heretic according to your own dogma/belief.
Furthermore, Jesus’ ascribing the name of God to Himself will make him husband of his own mother-Mary. Because Mary is called “Mother of God”. And if Jesus is ascribing the name of God to himself, then he is actually replaced the place of the Father, as such Jesus is Mary’s husband as well… And this is incestuous.!!
Did you see how horrible is your claim/understanding/belief? Why it is leading to this incestuous climex? Because the very base of your belief/dogma is not right. If your view/claim is not right, then Jesus is not a liar. If Jesus is not a liar then your a liar. You both cannot be right yet have totally opposite views/claims/undertstandings.
So Jesus DID NOT ascribe the holy name of God to Himself nor said that God and He were ONE in lieteral sense.
cont…
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