Islam as a system of life

[Aydan]

That was a good post from you. When we are interpretting the verses of the Quran, we are not making it more perfect. The original wording of the Quran remains the same. That is not changed at all.

Suppose some one explained the meaning of a certain verse in year 1000 A.D. He tried to do something. But it does not mean that he did it the best. There may have been some mistakes.

I can assure you that even in present days, with so many commentaries of the Quran, many Muslims are unaware of the real meanings of simple words such as "Momin, Muslim, Kafir, Murtadd (apostate) etc.

If they had known the real meanings then why they would start Jihad with weapons? Why they would kill the apostate? Why they would stone the adulterer?

So the right interpretation is needed all the time, of the bible and the Quran. That is needed to reach the correct understanding of the scriptures.

It is same with the bibleNT. People are interpretting verses differently. That is why some are catholics and some are Protestants and Methodists etc… Even JW’s and The Joseph Smith sect, all due to taking differing meaning of the verses of the bible…

I agree with everything you’re saying and I understand exactly what you’re saying about the NT version of the Bible however there are a few things I want to point out to you. Just as there are approved translations of the Koran there are approved Bibles as well. As far as I know the Catholic Church recognizes the Catholic Edition of the King James Version and the Catholic Edition of the American Standard Version of the Bible. Of course we are free to choose to use others but those are two recognized by the church. Another difference between Catholics and Protestants is that in addition to the Bible we also use the catechism to guide us in the teachings of the church.
Now Joseph Smith did not follow mainstream Christianity at all. He has many different views from what other Christians believe so he is not a good example to use here since he also claimed to receives messages directly from God as well. That’s why so many people compare him to Mohammed.
I think that this discussion is better suited for the new Koran for non-Muslims thread because they’re discussing these issues over there I think it’s a little bit off-topic for this thread. But please post all the information you have given me about interpreting the Koran over there so that we can continue our discussion and share it with others on that thread as well.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4768367#post4768367?rd=

 

[swariffin]

That was a good post from you. When we are interpretting the verses of the Quran, we are not making it more perfect. The original wording of the Quran remains the same. That is not changed at all.

Suppose some one explained the meaning of a certain verse in year 1000 A.D. He tried to do something. But it does not mean that he did it the best. There may have been some mistakes.

I can assure you that even in present days, with so many commentaries of the Quran, many Muslims are unaware of the real meanings of simple words such as "Momin, Muslim, Kafir, Murtadd (apostate) etc.

If they had known the real meanings then why they would start Jihad with weapons? Why they would kill the apostate? Why they would stone the adulterer?

So the right interpretation is needed all the time, of the bible and the Quran. That is needed to reach the correct understanding of the scriptures.

It is same with the bibleNT. People are interpretting verses differently. That is why some are catholics and some are Protestants and Methodists etc… Even JW’s and The Joseph Smith sect, all due to taking differing meaning of the verses of the bible…

Good posting, Planten. I agree with you. Whatever wording in Quran cannot be changed, added or deleted. Quran by logic is a historical product, i.e. came from the past. No human can change it. However, the interpretation can change.

 

[R_not]

Good posting, Planten. I agree with you. Whatever wording in Quran cannot be changed, added or deleted. Quran by logic is a historical product, i.e. came from the past. No human can change it. However, the interpretation can change.

:hypno:

A good thing to tell us - go tell it to your fellow muslims… in Pakistan, or Saudi Arabia, etc. I will use the koran they use, thank you very much.

Since there is absolutely no incentive within islam to tell it to your own adherents - I find your interpretation to be false.

 

[R_not]

Now the following is based on Guillaume’s translation of Ibn Hisham’s recension of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah.

It is the sira.

And I will post a few of the ‘problems’ of mohammed. I won’t go into all of them - but if someone wants to look at more of the sira - go here and scroll down to the botton and you will see this title: The Sira (Biography of Muhammad). The index to the sira is here, and you can download it and refer to it.

So, here is a partial list of mohammed’s life. that ‘perfect’ man isn’t so perfect. In fact, these are the deeds that are even practiced by muslims today. The number after the phrase is the page number in the book.

100 families enslaved by mohammed - 493
passes out women as slaves - 511
passes out slaves as gifts - 576
mohammed takes a woman as a slave while her husband was still alive 515
intercourse with slaves ok - 511
enslaves 6000 people - 592
Badr, the next verse abrogates the previous one - 326

paganism in mohammed’s family line 67, 68
circum. the kaba w/ or w/o clothes 87,88
paganism and the black stone 99,123,131
pagan arabs worshipped stones 249
360 idols in kaba 552
war - mohammed says to come to islam in 3 days or i’ll attack 645

mohammed wants to behead polytheists 646
wants to force people to become muslim 272
war is commanded upon those who reject islam 562, 564

mohammed’s attack on people 659-678
walking tree 178
suicide 106
love allah because it will forgive sins 274
treaty with polytheists, mo breaks it 617, 618
rejoicing when head cut off 305
orders men to be burned and THEN killed 316
mohammed lies about asking for pardon 670
lying allowed by mohammed 519
mohammed defeated at Taif 591
mohammed wants a failur at Taif covered up 193
double talk ???138-142

mohammed cursing people to become blind and have a son die 187

(some islamic ‘science’ ) pleurisy is from Satan 680

mohammed taunting the dead 305
compels people forced into islam 319
breaks his word after the armistice 507
war - killing is of no consequence 629
war - mohammed orders muslims to make war on polytheists and kill them 642, 643
war - fight until they submit to islam 629
violence - muslims kill 2 innocent men instead of their target and mohammed blessed this murder 674, 675

 

[chrisse]

Catholics and Islamists do not let the Believers leave the fold. They both become “divided”, though as to who are the Believers of their faith and who are the Apostates. The “match” is interesting when it is done by both parties on sincerity of cause! It could be like a grand theatre!

PEACE

In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

If you are misleading us in your profile about being a Catholic, may the Lord have mercy on your soul. Amen

Charlotte, you are incorrect in your statement. If you are a Catholic, as you claim, you would know that the Catholic Church has no law that prevents anyone from leaving the faith. Nor does the Catholic Church have religious police searching for apostates or those who are not practising to bring them back and/or put them to trial. Nor has the Catholic Church ever had such a law. If you are referring to the Inquisitions, you would be better advised to research for yourself than relying on propaganda and those whose intent is to destroy the Catholic Church - both post protest Christian and non-Christian.

Your attempt at moral equivalence is based on propaganda, not truth - neither historical nor today. Today, too many modern historians care not for historical fact, but have their own historical narrative. When they come across historical facts that do not suit their historical narrative, then it is the facts they change to suit their historical narrative, not the other way round.

However, I do not believe you are a Catholic.

:knight1:

 

[jakasaki]

chrisse;4776402] In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

If you are misleading us in your profile about being a Catholic, may the Lord have mercy on your soul. Amen

Charlotte, you are incorrect in your statement. If you are a Catholic, as you claim, you would know that the Catholic Church has no law that prevents anyone from leaving the faith. Nor does the Catholic Church have religious police searching for apostates or those who are not practising to bring them back and/or put them to trial. Nor has the Catholic Church ever had such a law. If you are referring to the Inquisitions, you would be better advised to research for yourself than relying on propaganda and those whose intent is to destroy the Catholic Church - both post protest Christian and non-Christian.

Your attempt at moral equivalence is based on propaganda, not truth - neither historical nor today. Today, too many modern historians care not for historical fact, but have their own historical narrative. When they come across historical facts that do not suit their historical narrative, then it is the facts they change to suit their historical narrative, not the other way round.

However, I do not believe you are a Catholic.

#121 Feb 3, '09, 5:58 pm charlotte10
Junior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007
Location: I live in North Newark, NJ
Posts: 7

Re: Mohammad and Zainab

---

I may be sterotyping the Islam religion or maybe it is because I have been without a husband, since 1993,** but truethfully if I spend too much time studying Islam, I come to the decision, it is a sensual religion.** <-----

OK, sensual religion is ones opinion but there is nothing sensual about islam.

Perhaps it’s because of this statement and also, I too do not believe this user is a Catholic because of all of the previous replies.

To me when I read them they “sort” of have a mixed message especially the one with the Pope and the dialoge with middle eastern rulers regarding islam.

God Bless…

 

[R_not]

It may have been for mohammed! And any man who doesn’t have to fight and who can afford to lay around with one of his wives or slaves.

They (Europeans) say that immigration helps their economy. More likely it seems to be helping their welfare system go bankrupt. And bringing polygamy to Europe. (another source for this are some books: Eurabia, while Europe Slept and Menace in Europe.) Here is one freak in Australia who committed welfare fraud - he got caught and maybe woke up the Australians.

Imams pushing welfare fraud and other illegal things.

Otherwise, I guess it is good for a woman if they like sharing their husband and be one of many - or more if the man divorces and weds a lot, or even have slaves - boys and/or girls. Just don’t cross them because you will feel the rod.

 

[R_not]

It seems my organization, Act for America, found some problems in our public schools. Our ‘useful Idiots’ seem to be helping islam along in their deception.

Here is a report of this infiltration. And here is the document of islam’s infiltration.

Keep in mind they are already in our colleges around the USA - and overseas. The MSA (muslim student association) and they have direct ties to the muslim brotherhood. They also do the same thing and give a one sided view of islam - basically like we read on these threads - a lot of taqiyya/kithman.

Keep in mind that this is very much a way of life for muslims - to work to the goal of making islam 2nd to no other religion, to get sharia laws the law of the world - bit by bit, and to not necessarily kill or convert us - but to subjugate us. and it is the same type of subjugation that is the cause of the world’s worse human rights disasters in their muslim lands.

 

[charlotte10]

There is a lot of violence in the teachings of Islam, and as there is justice, you instead use forgiveness, on issues that do not make it the ideal choice! Your form of justice today, is even based on violence!

Read Dr. Fadl’s book, and he does discuss issues of other faiths and governments; he makes many comparisons.

 

[chrisse]

There is a lot of violence in the teachings of Islam, and as there is justice, you instead use forgiveness, on issues that do not make it the ideal choice! Your form of justice today, is even based on violence!

Read Dr. Fadl’s book, and he does discuss issues of other faiths and governments; he makes many comparisons.

Islamic Justice :
theft - amputate the right handisn’t that the hand they are supposed to eat with if they are muslim; repeat offence - amputate their left foot for balance, of course, very decent of them; repeat offence - slice off their other hand; repeat offence - slice off their other foot.

• from The Reliance of the Traveller, The Penalty for Theft

fornification (adultery):If the offender is someone with the capacity to remain chaste, then he or she is stoned to death, someone with the capacity to remain chaste meaning anyone, who has had the sexual intercourse (at least once) with their spouse …if the offender is someone who has not the capacity to remain chaste then scourge them 100 times and banish them 81 km for one year (this latter includes pre-pubescents)

• from The Reliance of the Traveller, The Penalty for Fornication or Sodomy

Honour Killing in the qur’an : Sura 18 : 68-81
quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispTargam.asp?nType=3&nSora=18&nAya=73&nSeg=2&l=arb&t=eng

Yep I’m sure a sadist can see the justice and forgiveness in that.

:knight1:

 

[planten]

Islamic Justice :
theft - amputate the right handisn’t that the hand they are supposed to eat with if they are muslim; repeat offence - amputate their left foot for balance, of course, very decent of them; repeat offence - slice off their other hand; repeat offence - slice off their other foot.

• from The Reliance of the Traveller, The Penalty for Theft

fornification (adultery):If the offender is someone with the capacity to remain chaste, then he or she is stoned to death, someone with the capacity to remain chaste meaning anyone, who has had the sexual intercourse (at least once) with their spouse …if the offender is someone who has not the capacity to remain chaste then scourge them 100 times and banish them 81 km for one year (this latter includes pre-pubescents)

• from The Reliance of the Traveller, The Penalty for Fornication or Sodomy

Honour Killing in the qur’an : Sura 18 : 68-81
quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispTargam.asp?nType=3&nSora=18&nAya=73&nSeg=2&l=arb&t=eng

Yep I’m sure a sadist can see the justice and forgiveness in that.

:knight1:

** Islamic way of life is theoritically the best way of life. But at the moment it is not understood and not being praticed.**

 

[chrisse]

** Islamic way of life is theoritically the best way of life. But at the moment it is not understood and not being praticed.**

May the Lord open your eyes to the Truth.

There is nothing theoritcally superior about the Islamic way of life; and there is nothing that is not understood about the Islamic way of life by those whose eyes are not wide-shut.

While it is true the majority of islamic majority countries are not practising full shariah at the moment - though they are progressing towards that - what we see of it now, what we see of those countries that are further along the track to full practice, is enough to judge.

As my examples above emphatically proved, Islam is a barbaric, savage way of life, where survival of the fittest reigns supreme, and natural law and justice plays no part.

To say Islam is a throw back to ancient times, is an insult to those ancient times - even they displayed more value and truth than islam, the savage mohammet and his imaginery friend-god allah produced.

Mohammet simply consolidated all the pagan gods into one pagan god, without any spiritual or moral improvement; rather there was spiritual and moral degradation.

By their fruits you shall know them - WE KNOW THE FRUIT IS ROTTEN.

:knight1:

 

[planten]

May the Lord open your eyes to the Truth.

There is nothing theoritcally superior about the Islamic way of life; and there is nothing that is not understood about the Islamic way of life by those whose eyes are not wide-shut.

While it is true the majority of islamic majority countries are not practising full shariah at the moment - though they are progressing towards that - what we see of it now, what we see of those countries that are further along the track to full practice, is enough to judge.

As my examples above emphatically proved, Islam is a barbaric, savage way of life, where survival of the fittest reigns supreme, and natural law and justice plays no part

To say Islam is a throw back to ancient times, is an insult to those ancient times - even they displayed more value and truth than islam, the savage mohammet and his imaginery friend-god allah produced.

Mohammet simply consolidated all the pagan gods into one pagan god, without any spiritual or moral improvement; rather there was spiritual and moral degradation.

By their fruits you shall know them - WE KNOW THE FRUIT IS ROTTEN.

:knight1:

I had agreed. What you see now! It is important to know “Where do you see?” If you see it amongst the muslims of today then you are right. If you see such bad things in the Quran then you are uninformed.

Sorry, I had to use the harsh words because of your barbaric opinion about Islam in general. I do not blame you because the Muslims are not understanding the peaceful message of Islam. How could you understand it? It is a blessing of Allah that the law of Sariah is not implemented any where in the world.
If the present day misguided Mullas will implement any Shariah, it will be bad for the world and bad for Islam because they do not understand many of the very basic facts about Islam.

Uptil, now (recently) they had been preaching Jihad with the weapons (sword). How foolish of them? There are many sects in Islam and no Unity, no love, no peacefulness for self and others. No respect for the other faiths, no democracy, no will to listen peacefully to other people… One great Mulla (Muslim) had written that Islam was spread by sword.

The muslims have lost the leadership of the world. They have fallen down in the eyes of the Lord as the Jewish people had fallen down ages ago. To me the present day muslims are worse than the old time Jews (of the time of Jesus.) So they are suffering and will keep on suffering much more unless they learn some lessons of good behaviour.

 

[chrisse]

I had agreed. What you see now! It is important to know “Where do you see?” If you see it amongst the muslims of today then you are right. If you see such bad things in the Quran then you are uninformed.

Sorry, I had to use the harsh words because of your barbaric opinion about Islam in general. I do not blame you because the Muslims are not understanding the peaceful message of Islam. How could you understand it? It is a blessing of Allah that the law of Sariah is not implemented any where in the world.
If the present day misguided Mullas will implement any Shariah, it will be bad for the world and bad for Islam because they do not understand many of the very basic facts about Islam.

Uptil, now (recently) they had been preaching Jihad with the weapons (sword). How foolish of them? There are many sects in Islam and no Unity, no love, no peacefulness for self and others. No respect for the other faiths, no democracy, no will to listen peacefully to other people… One great Mulla (Muslim) had written that Islam was spread by sword.

The muslims have lost the leadership of the world. They have fallen down in the eyes of the Lord as the Jewish people had fallen down ages ago. To me the present day muslims are worse than the old time Jews (of the time of Jesus.) So they are suffering and will keep on suffering much more unless they learn some lessons of good behaviour.

So I suppose they should revert back to the times of mohammet when such explicit instructions of when to wash were given … about fornication with animals, anal and dead appendages (I apologise, this is disgusting … you are warned before you link to it.)

investigateislam.com/ebooks1.htm

You can also link to the official Saudi Arabian website for this hadith, although it’s in arabic.

My opinion is the civilised one, not yours. You are beneath contempt in your blatant attempts to deceive and confuse people with this dehumanising behaviour of your mohammet by ignoring the vile hadiths that do not suit your taqiya.

But, planten, I do know the qur’an, hadiths and sunnah are all lies, and even muslims do not have the original and true texts. So thankyou for at least agreeing with that. However, knowing your trilogy of hate is corrupted, and the true texts lost, well, leaves you with no choice but to leave Islam. May our Blessed Mother guide to your Lord, your Saviour, Jesus Christ.

:knight1:

 

[Aydan]

what is most terrifying to me is that many former Christians including Catholics even some who are well-rounded and aware of Christian teaching embrace Islam and then go around telling everybody how horrible Christianity is with some even implying that we are going to hell and that our prayers to Jesus are worthless etc. etc. people who don’t know Christ or are misinformed like I was can very easily be led to believe that Islam is the one true religion I know I almost fell for it myself when I did not know Christ I mean I was a stone’s throw from becoming Muslim. And I don’t think Christians are doing enough to counter the many outreach programs that Muslims have and they use them to bash Christianity the best example of this is the deen show. For example check out their latest show that shows a guy rejecting Christianity for Islam. It terrifies me to think that could’ve been me after learning what I know now.
youtube.com/watch?v=wV1m2Q_9K8I
thank you Jesus for putting people in my life who prevented me from going down that road amen!
:angel1: :byzsoc:

 

[LUISV]

The muslims have lost the leadership of the world. They have fallen down in the eyes of the Lord as the Jewish people had fallen down ages ago. To me the present day muslims are worse than the old time Jews (of the time of Jesus.) So they are suffering and will keep on suffering much more unless they learn some lessons of good behaviour.

Interesting and dangerous words my friend. You are an apostate of the Islam as preached and practiced in the world today. You are quite correct in in your description of what has failed in Islam. There is no consensus, even among Muslim scholars, as to what the true meaning of Islam is. Pick an Imam and try to be just like him.

 

[swariffin]

** Islamic way of life is theoritically the best way of life. But at the moment it is not understood and not being praticed.**

To the Arabic people in 700 AD’s, yes. To the world today, definitely NO. The more I understand Islam, the more I found it wrong to be applied to modern human life. The Communism is the best way of life to the Chinese under Mao Zhe Tung during his era, but not today under Hu Jin Tao. Even the Chinese is slowly moving away from communism today, though the constitution is still under communism.

 

[swariffin]

I had agreed. What you see now! It is important to know “Where do you see?” If you see it amongst the muslims of today then you are right. If you see such bad things in the Quran then you are uninformed.

Sorry, I had to use the harsh words because of your barbaric opinion about Islam in general. I do not blame you because the Muslims are not understanding the peaceful message of Islam. How could you understand it? It is a blessing of Allah that the law of Sariah is not implemented any where in the world.
If the present day misguided Mullas will implement any Shariah, it will be bad for the world and bad for Islam because they do not understand many of the very basic facts about Islam.

Uptil, now (recently) they had been preaching Jihad with the weapons (sword). How foolish of them? There are many sects in Islam and no Unity, no love, no peacefulness for self and others. No respect for the other faiths, no democracy, no will to listen peacefully to other people… One great Mulla (Muslim) had written that Islam was spread by sword.

The muslims have lost the leadership of the world. They have fallen down in the eyes of the Lord as the Jewish people had fallen down ages ago. To me the present day muslims are worse than the old time Jews (of the time of Jesus.) So they are suffering and will keep on suffering much more unless they learn some lessons of good behaviour.

There was NO ISLAM DURING THE DAY OF JESUS. Please check your history lesson.

 

[R_not]

I had agreed. What you see now! It is important to know “Where do you see?” If you see it amongst the muslims of today then you are right. If you see such bad things in the Quran then you are uninformed.

Sorry, I had to use the harsh words because of your barbaric opinion about Islam in general. I do not blame you because the Muslims are not understanding the peaceful message of Islam. How could you understand it? It is a blessing of Allah that the law of Sariah is not implemented any where in the world.
If the present day misguided Mullas will implement any Shariah, it will be bad for the world and bad for Islam because they do not understand many of the very basic facts about Islam.

Uptil, now (recently) they had been preaching Jihad with the weapons (sword). How foolish of them? There are many sects in Islam and no Unity, no love, no peacefulness for self and others. No respect for the other faiths, no democracy, no will to listen peacefully to other people… One great Mulla (Muslim) had written that Islam was spread by sword.

The muslims have lost the leadership of the world. They have fallen down in the eyes of the Lord as the Jewish people had fallen down ages ago. To me the present day muslims are worse than the old time Jews (of the time of Jesus.) So they are suffering and will keep on suffering much more unless they learn some lessons of good behaviour.

This is one post that I have to partially agree with you.

The only thing is that there has never been a good time in islam. When there was ‘relative’ peace was when there was also a presence by other forces such as the Brits and the French during the last part of the Ottoman Empire.

And it doesn’t matter how they preach jihad - the end is still the same for anyone who doesn’t want to be a muslim - subjugation. And along with that, as we see, are human rights disasters. But that may be what you are talking about. But I don’t see it any better since mohammed’s time.

And I don’t understand why you are bringing up the Jews. Why do you judge them? If they have sinned it is up to God to judge them - not you, or me, or anyone. The Jews, overall, do not deserve the persecution they get in ALL the lands that they reside in. They have given to our world many great things. Israel’s contributions to the world

here is a partial list:

The cell phone was first developed at the Motorola plant in Israel.
Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by Microsoft-Israel.

The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.

Both the Pentium-4 microprocessor for desktop computers and the Centrino processor for laptops were entirely designed, developed and produced in Israel.

Voice mail technology was developed in Israel. The Israeli company Amdocs is the largest company in the world in this field.

Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only foreign-based research and development facilities in Israel.

The program ICQ, which is the technological basis for AOL Instant Messenger, was developed in 1996 by four young Israelis.

Disk on Key — a portable, virtual hard disk — was developed by the Israeli company M-Systems.

Israel has the highest number of personal computers per capita in the world.

Israel has the highest number of university degrees per capita in the world.

Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a large margin — 109 per 10,000 people — as well as one of the highest per capita rates of patents filed.

My favorite though is that they gave us Jesus Christ.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

Salaam/ Peace

what is most terrifying to me is that many former Christians including Catholics even some who are well-rounded and aware of Christian teaching embrace Islam

why u think they did so ? Despite the hostile media propaganda agaisnt Islam since centuries , what makes the learned people of other faiths to embrace Islam ?