Islam/Gnosticism connection

[Catholic_JIMMY]

I have once heard that Islam was influenced by many Gnostic beliefs in the area of where Mohhamed (which is spelled horribly wrong) spread his teachings. I noticed that they are similar in many ways i.e. they have the unblemished version of God’s word. Also Mohhamed (I am guessing the spelling sorry) repeatedly in the Quaron (I really can not spell these words) about that God does not need a helper. Although many people believe he was referring to the Holy Trinity it is possible he was referring to the Demiurg (ah!!! spell check why are you so cruel?) of Gnostic “Christian” lore. ‘’’ If you know anything about this topic please discuss this, and no bashing Muslims it gets really old.

Jesus’ name in Hebrew is Yeshua Messiah

 

[BeeSweet]

There are a couple of gnostic tales which come to mind that are both mentioned in the Quran. The first is the story of Jesus making clay birds come to life when he was a child. This story is from the gospel of Thomas I believe, a gnostic gospel. The other story is of Jesus actually escaping the crucifixion by changing places with someone else. I don’t remember the name of the gnostic gospel from which this story originated. I’m sure there are more, I’ll be interested to hear what others are able to turn up for you.

I think also there was mention in the Quran of a tale that Jesus had a fight with a playmate, killed him, and then brought him back to life. Not sure if that one is actually in the Quran or not, but it is a gnostic tale.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

I have once heard that Islam was influenced by many Gnostic beliefs

don’t know what is Gnostic beliefs. Quran is the final holy book of God Almighty. It confirms previous stories , narrated what happened in the past etc.

Message of all holy books is same --worship one God only.

 

[Reuben_J]

Except that in Islam, Mohammad is always mentioned in the same breathe as Allah (God).

 

[cathopologist]

There is substantial evidence Islam has gnostic roots. Look up “Mandeans”, “Manichaeans”, “Sabaeans”, “Sabians” and read on Simon Magus. I believe the main contributors to Islamic beliefs comes directly from these sources and also from gnostic works such as the Gospel of Judas and the Gospel of Thomas.

Arabia at the time of Mohammad was riddled with small camps of gnostic practicioners and other pagan groups along with orthodox Christian copts. It wouldn’t be surprising if Mohammad as a “Salik” picked up bits and pieces of stories from orthodox Christians, gnostics and pagans to develop his own unique religion.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Jesus most likely spoke Aramaic. Not Hebrew. What do you think his name is in Aramaic?

His title in Aramaic is “Messiah.” The Hebrew equivalent is 'Mashiach," I believe. The Arabic equivalent is “Masih.”

And in fact, the Jews and the Muslims have the same concept of what it means. It’s the Christians who have a different view.


About the name Muhammad–>there’s only 1 “h” and 2 "m"s.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Except that in Islam, Mohammad is always mentioned in the same breathe as Allah (God).

Always?

Let me read for you the first chapter of the Qur’an:

In the name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Especially Merciful
All praise is for Allah, the Lord fo the Worlds,
The Most Merciful, the Especially Merciful,
Master of the Day of Judgment
You do we worship, and your help we seek
Guide us to the straight path – the path of those on whom you have bestowed your grace, and not of those who have earned your wrath, nor of those who went astray.

So please tell me where Muhammad is mentioned? Or are you making something up?

 

[Sister_Amy]

There are a couple of gnostic tales which come to mind that are both mentioned in the Quran. The first is the story of Jesus making clay birds come to life when he was a child. This story is from the gospel of Thomas I believe, a gnostic gospel. The other story is of Jesus actually escaping the crucifixion by changing places with someone else. I don’t remember the name of the gnostic gospel from which this story originated. I’m sure there are more, I’ll be interested to hear what others are able to turn up for you.

I think also there was mention in the Quran of a tale that Jesus had a fight with a playmate, killed him, and then brought him back to life. Not sure if that one is actually in the Quran or not, but it is a gnostic tale.

I wonder if anyone might like to explore the following possibility:

Perhaps some “gnostic tales” are actually correct. Perhaps the gnostic literature recorded true stories which were omitted by other writers. And that God Almighty chose to confirm those stories in the Qur’an even though the “Church” opted to ignore them?

 

[ralphinal]

I wonder if anyone might like to explore the following possibility:

Perhaps some “gnostic tales” are actually correct. Perhaps the gnostic literature recorded true stories which were omitted by other writers. And that God Almighty chose to confirm those stories in the Qur’an even though the “Church” opted to ignore them?

The hole in that logic is three-fold.

First, if the Church decided not to use them because they had already adopted an anti-gnostic stance, you would think that these writtings would be of the same era as those used in the Bible. They are not as old as the NT text.

Second, there are theological problems with these writings other than the gnostic aspect. For example, one of them states that a woman can only enter heaven if God makes her a man first. Now, why should we say that some of the theology is good when the rest is that bad?

Finally, we were told by Jesus that the Holy Spirit would guide us to all truth. If we assume that there is a God, that Jesus has authority, and that the Spirit would lead us, then we can throw out that which he threw out.

It is the same as the Qur;an. As a Christian, if I accept it, I am saying that Jesus lied and that God is impotent and without power to protect the Truth.

 

[Publisher]

I have read something to this effect as well. Much of what Muhammed DIDN’T like about Christianity was from some of the more obscure sects of Christianity that made their home in Arabia.

The “clay pidgeons” are from the “Infancy Gospel of Thomas”, not the “Gospel of Thomas”. The infancy gospel is quite late in it’s writing…the “Gospel of Thomas” is a collection of “sayings” of Jesus…it has no stories from which to draw from. Many of the sayings parallel the synoptics. It really doesn’t meet “Gnostic” criteria, and is much closer to a “blend” of proto-orthodox and gnostic. The “Thomas Christians” were a group that existed…much like the Johanine, Pauline, Petrine sects of the first and second century, but eventually were “blended” into what came to be called “Orthodox/Catholic” Christianity.

Eilene Pagels is one author in her book “Beyond Belief” that contrasts the two different sects of Johanine and Thomas Christians.

The Mandeans may have been the followers of John the Baptist which believed Jesus usurped his “messiahhood” and took his followers…Jesus in Mandean belief is not “the good guy”.

Much of the misconceptions Muhammed had about Christianity was most likely from some of the more obscure sects which existed in Arabia at that time…he had contact with some of them…I believe his idea of Mary being “God’s spouse” or the fourth person of the Godhead was from one of the sects he came in contact with…extreem Mariology was running quite high at that time I believe.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

…extreem Mariology was running quite high at that time I believe.

what about now ? Christians don’t pray to Mother Mary (p) anymore ?

 

[cathopologist]

Salaam/peace

what about now ? Christians don’t pray to Mother Mary (p) anymore ?

We pray to her for intercession. We do not worship her if that is what you are implying.

 

[ralphinal]

I have read something to this effect as well. Much of what Muhammed DIDN’T like about Christianity was from some of the more obscure sects of Christianity that made their home in Arabia.

The “clay pidgeons” are from the “Infancy Gospel of Thomas”, not the “Gospel of Thomas”. The infancy gospel is quite late in it’s writing…the “Gospel of Thomas” is a collection of “sayings” of Jesus…it has no stories from which to draw from. Many of the sayings parallel the synoptics. It really doesn’t meet “Gnostic” criteria, and is much closer to a “blend” of proto-orthodox and gnostic. The “Thomas Christians” were a group that existed…much like the Johanine, Pauline, Petrine sects of the first and second century, but eventually were “blended” into what came to be called “Orthodox/Catholic” Christianity.

Eilene Pagels is one author in her book “Beyond Belief” that contrasts the two different sects of Johanine and Thomas Christians.

The Mandeans may have been the followers of John the Baptist which believed Jesus usurped his “messiahhood” and took his followers…Jesus in Mandean belief is not “the good guy”.

Much of the misconceptions Muhammed had about Christianity was most likely from some of the more obscure sects which existed in Arabia at that time…he had contact with some of them…I believe his idea of Mary being “God’s spouse” or the fourth person of the Godhead was from one of the sects he came in contact with…extreem Mariology was running quite high at that time I believe.

TO me, this leads to the question of source.

If Muhammed was influenced by all this, and it is in the Qur’an, can I say that casts doubt on the Qur’an being of divine origin?

 

[cathopologist]

I wonder if anyone might like to explore the following possibility:

Perhaps some “gnostic tales” are actually correct. Perhaps the gnostic literature recorded true stories which were omitted by other writers. And that God Almighty chose to confirm those stories in the Qur’an even though the “Church” opted to ignore them?

So you believe in the gnostic tale of Jesus’ mischief’s who used to poke other kids to watch them die and then revive them for fun?

 

[Publisher]

TO me, this leads to the question of source.

If Muhammed was influenced by all this, and it is in the Qur’an, can I say that casts doubt on the Qur’an being of divine origin?

You could…but I doubt my post influenced you in that direction.

Each religious tradition has it’s sacred story…it’s sacred myth is uses to preserve and further it’s teachings. Christianity and Islam both have their own sacred story…that those stories conflict is no big suprise as they share some of the same “characters” in the myth.

 

[cthulhubryan]

Salaam/peace

don’t know what is Gnostic beliefs. Quran is the final holy book of God Almighty. It confirms previous stories , narrated what happened in the past etc.

Message of all holy books is same --worship one God only.

‘Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”’ - John 14:6

 

[rad]

So you believe in the gnostic tale of Jesus’ mischief’s who used to poke other kids to watch them die and then revive them for fun?

Sorry i can’t remember reading that above in the infancy Gospel ,i read that jesus and his playmates were playing on top of a second story rooftop ,…the playing got rough the other kids accidently pushed one off the roof and he died ,they ran away in fright and told there parents jesus did it…the angry parents in a group confronted jesus…jesus ressurected the boy so that he can tell the group of angry parents that jesus was Innocent of the act and the other kids were guilty of …love the infancy gospel…

 

[ralphinal]

You could…but I doubt my post influenced you in that direction.

Each religious tradition has it’s sacred story…it’s sacred myth is uses to preserve and further it’s teachings. Christianity and Islam both have their own sacred story…that those stories conflict is no big suprise as they share some of the same “characters” in the myth.

Don’t sell yourself short. I always put stock in what you post, even if I have already made up my mind.

I think that the last part of this post shines a bright light on the problem. If Islam did not use the same “characters” as Christianity, the conflicts would be totally different than they are now.

 

[Catholic_JIMMY]

I actually started this thread in order to quell the common thoughts I noticed on some threads that Satan had Muhhumed create Islam. I wanted to prove that Satan had nothing to do with Islam’s creation (of course Gnostics are not much better).

 

[cathopologist]

Sorry i can’t remember reading that above in the infancy Gospel ,i read that jesus and his playmates were playing on top of a second story rooftop ,…the playing got rough the other kids accidently pushed one off the roof and he died ,they ran away in fright and told there parents jesus did it…the angry parents in a group confronted jesus…jesus ressurected the boy so that he can tell the group of angry parents that jesus was Innocent of the act and the other kids were guilty of …love the infancy gospel…

He also blinded the parents who complained about the incident, if i remember correctly. The Infancy Gospel has some tales of Jesus’ supposed mischievous mannerisms.