Islam/Gnosticism connection

[inJESUS]

And thou (O Muhammad) wast not a reader of any scripture before it, nor didst thou write it with thy right hand, for then might those have doubted, who follow falsehood.) (Al-`Ankabut 29: 48)

 

[inJESUS]

One of the things we often encounter while discussing with Muslims, beside their fear to go into deep theological thinking, is the history problem. Muslims want to give us the impression that Muhammad was an illiterate man dropping from nowhere, who have met no one, who discussed with no one, who was influenced by no one, who copied from nowhere. All these are myth perpetrated by Muslims to cast a veil around Muhammad’s claim of prophethood. The man was highly literate, raised by highly literate men, and encountered and discussed and was supported for 44 years.

 

[Zlatan]

Islam was greatly influenced by many christian heresies such as Gnosticism, Arianism and most heavily by Nestorianism as his 1st wife Khadijah had a cousin called Waraqah ibn Nawfal who was a Nestorian priest. Nestorian believed that jesus had 2 persons 1 human and one divine. They beleive that jesus “the god” didnt die on the cross whilst the man did because god cant die in their theology and this idea of rejecting the crucifixion entered into islam from nestorianism. In arianism we find the blief that jesus was not god but created by god and gods servant again this is a muslim doctrine. etc It is no coincidence that we find so many numerous heretical christian doctrines in Islam as islam plagarised ideas from numerous sources.

 

[Zlatan]

in jesus i read the research of some scholars of islam who claimed that the koran was not originally written in Arabic but rather in Syriac/Aramaic and that there is a great connection to christian theology when the Koran is read in Aramaic rather than Arabic. have you read anything about that?

 

[inJESUS]

in jesus i read the research of some scholars of islam who claimed that the koran was not originally written in Arabic but rather in Syriac/Aramaic and that there is a great connection to christian theology when the Koran is read in Aramaic rather than Arabic. have you read anything about that?

yes i read a book linking the Quran to the “gospel of the Hebrews” held by the Gnostic Ebionites and written in Aramaic. In fact, Abu Musa Al-Hariri explores more on this topic, his book is online to read but in Arabic, linking Quran passages to the gosepl held by the Ebionites in Aramaic. The point is not that the Quran was not written in Arabic, rather that it has the Ebionite teachings translated into an Arabic tongue for Arabs who had no Arabic scriptures. Everything in his book links the quran teaching and Islamic practices back to their real origin, the origin of Waraqa ben Nawfal’ sect, the Ebionite, not Nestorian, who married Muhammad to khadija, and knew him for 44 years and actually Waraqa, Khadija and Muhammad are members of one tribe, linked by the grandfather Qusai.

 

[cthulhubryan]

One of the things we often encounter while discussing with Muslims, beside their fear to go into deep theological thinking, is the history problem. Muslims want to give us the impression that Muhammad was an illiterate man dropping from nowhere, who have met no one, who discussed with no one, who was influenced by no one, who copied from nowhere. All these are myth perpetrated by Muslims to cast a veil around Muhammad’s claim of prophethood. The man was highly literate, raised by highly literate men, and encountered and discussed and was supported for 44 years.

That is interesting as it is basically the same thing you run into while discussing the origins of Mormonism. A supposedly innocent and ignorant man is led to discover hidden words of God that are designed to lead people away from Christianity. As a friend of mine once said, Satan may not be the smartest guy, but he will reuse something that works.

 

[inJESUS]

This is the book for anyone who might know Arabic.

Priest and Prophet: study on origin of Islam

by Abu Mussa Al-Hariri

muhammadanism.com/Arabic/book/hariri/priest_prophet_book.pdf

 

[MelanieAnne]

Salaam/peace

what about now ? Christians don’t pray to Mother Mary (p) anymore ?

Christians have never prayed TO Mary, we have asked her to pray FOR us, just as someone might ask a friend to pray for them.

To pray TO someone implies worship. Mary is not worshiped. She is admired as the Mother of Jesus. She is held in very high esteem as she was a very special person to be worthy to be the Mother of the Incarnation, but she is neither prayed to nor worshiped. Those who say that we pray to Mary or worship her are misguided.

 

[Zlatan]

Salaam/peace

sis already mentioned this point. God sent Prophets to all nations . Quran confirmed about the previous scriptures , what happened in the past etc. If Quran took the stories exactly described in other books , then how come story of haman & others are different in Quran & Bible ? Haman story is very interesting …do u know about it ?

I Seriously disagree. there were no prophets sent to all the peoples on earth , that’s just a lie. If so their would be monotheisms within Europe before the arrival of Christianity which of course there weren’t any as almost all the inhabitants of europe whether, Greek, Roman or “Barbarian” adhered to some sort of Polytheism. In Africa its the same there were no prophets sent to the peoples of Africa practiced animism, spirit worship or some sort of polytheism. In Asia we have the dharmic religions like Hinduism with the belief in many gods or Buddhism a non-theistic religion. We also have religions emerging like Taoism, Shintoism, Confucianism. All of which were free of a monotheistic deity. Or In the Americas again we have a huge plethora of polytheisms and spirit worship. So my question to you is if Allah sent prophets to all these peoples then there should be some sort of record of these Monotheistic cultures emerging all over the world independently from one another. There should be written records amongst the Asian civilizations of such prophets existing . but there isn’t. There should be evidence in the texts or Hieroglyphs of such great civilizations of the Aztecs, Incas or Mayan of such prophets emerging and urging them all to adhere to monotheism. Again there is none

My question to you is if Allah sent prophets preaching monotheism to all peoples on earth then why did monotheism not exist outside of the Middle-East.? Why were there so many non-monotheistic religions all of which possessed no conception of the one god? All over the world! did all these prophets indeed visit all the peoples on earth and fail? It must be so because nowhere did the idea exist outside of the middle-east. All these messengers to people in the Americas failed, they all failed in Africa, Asia and Europe in each and every case as no monotheism existed there. There is no record of huge swarms of people suddenly gaining reverence for a deity known as Allah in disparate and isolated countries which would be the case if these prophets to all people on earth ever were sent.

They failed so completely leaving the vast majority of mankind living outside of monotheism because they were never sent!
There is no record of any sort of monotheism existing. If they were sent then they failed so miserably that they were unable to convince one group of people to follow monotheism outside of the middle-east. What does that tell you?

Monotheism never existed outside of middle-east before Islam or Christianity. It was invented by Akhnaten only around 1300 BC . This is the 1st record of a Monotheism having existed and what was his diety called ?not Allah but the Aten meaning sun disk , this in essence was monotheistic sun worship as they believed the sun was behind life, hence god. This monotheism failed after Akhnaten died. Then a new Religion emerged called Zoroastrianism founded by the Prophet Zoroaster. Was this deity called Allah? no! it was called Ahura Mazda meaning great lord. Then of Course we have Judaism with the god Yahweh or Elohim. Elohim does have the same root as the word Allah whcih mean the diety but this is due to the similar semitic language not the deity being the same as all Allah is, is a title meaning the deity, its not the name of a god. Polytheists and Christians used the word long before Islam ever existed. Anyway my point is that these are the 3 earliest monotheisms recorded by history and there is no proof for any prophet spreading them anywhere any earlier. Also these religions bore little in common with Islam and did not worship the same god as Muslims claim and if it appears to b e so its because of Islamic plagiarism not any divine plan.

Where were these messengers before the proven emergence of monotheism for thousands upon thousands of years of human history?

010.047
To every people (was sent) a messenger: when their messenger comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.

016.035
The worshippers of false gods say: “If Allah had so willed, we should not have worshipped aught but Him - neither we nor our fathers,- nor should we have prescribed prohibitions other than His.” So did those who went before them. But what is the mission of messengers but to preach the Clear Message?

016.036
For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger, (with the Command), “Serve Allah, and eschew Evil”: of the People were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).

again where is the proof this ever happened if the vast majority of the world existed outside of monotheism for thousands of years?

Then the Koran says some people were in fact not warned. (as we all know)

036.002 By the Qur’an, full of Wisdom,
036.003 Thou art indeed one of the messengers,
036.004 On a Straight Way.
036.005 It is a Revelation sent down by (Him), the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.

 

[Zlatan]

036.006
In order that thou mayest **admonish a people, whose fathers had received no admonition, and who therefore remain heedless **(of the Signs of Allah).
036.007
The Word is proved true against the greater part of them: for they do not believe

Again we find the koran saying some people were not warned before mohammed.

032.003
Or do they say, “He has forged it”? Nay, it is the Truth from thy Lord, **that thou mayest admonish a people to whom no warner **has come before thee: in order that they may receive guidance

028.046
Nor wast thou at the side of (the Mountain of) Tur when we called (to Moses). Yet (art thou sent) as Mercy from thy Lord, to give warning to a people to whom no warner had come before thee: in order that they may receive admonition.

028.047
If (We had) not (sent thee to the Quraish),- in case a calamity should seize them for (the deeds) that their hands have sent forth, they might say: "Our Lord! why didst Thou not sent us a messenger? We should then have followed Thy Signs and been amongst those who believe!"

034.044
YUSUFALI: But We had not given them Books which they could study, nor sent messengers to them before thee as Warners.

035.042
YUSUFALI: They swore their strongest oaths by Allah that if a warner came to them, they would follow his guidance better than any (other) of the Peoples: But when a warner came to them, it has only increased their flight (from righteousness),-

The Arabs had not been warned? I find that hard to believe
since the kroan says that there had already been 3 Arab Prophets Hud, Salih and the father of the Arabs Ishmael.

006.086
And Isma’il and Elisha, and Jonas, and Lot: and to all We gave favour above the nations:
006.087
(To them) and to their fathers, and progeny and brethren: We chose them, and we guided them to a straight way.
006.088
This is the guidance of Allah: He giveth that guidance to whom He pleaseth, of His worshippers. If they were to join other gods with Him, all that they did would be vain for them.

006.089
**These were the men to whom We gave the **Book, and authority, and prophethood: if these (their descendants) reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not.

So Ishmael was the 1st Arab prophet and even had his own book?

003.084
:Say: “We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham,** Isma’il**, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam).”

Then we come to the other 2 Arab Prophets Hud and Salih
who were messengers to the Ad and Thamud peoples and both were rejected ( a lot of allmighty allah’s prophets were rejected lol)

026.123The 'Ad (people) rejected the messengers.
026.124 Behold, their brother Hud said to them: "Will ye not fear (Allah)?
026.125 "I am to you a messenger worthy of all trust:
026.126 "So fear Allah and obey me.
026.141 The Thamud (people) rejected the messengers.
026.142 Behold, their brother Salih said to them: "Will you not fear (Allah)?
026.143 "I am to you a messenger worthy of all trust.
026.144 "So fear Allah, and obey me.

Mohammed was not the 1st Arab prophet but the 4th
and the Koran seems undecided upon whether or not the Arabs were really warned or not before him. I find it amusing that if the Koran doesn’t even agree on whether the Arabs were warned or not before Mohammed how is it possible to say all people one Earth were warned without 1shred of proof that this is the case.

So you consider The Gnostic, Arian and Nestorian founders as prophets of Allah? as they preached similar doctrines to Islam? Well yes some were similar (the ones that Muslims plagiarized that is) but other doctrines these groups held are far from Islamic and no Muslim who has studied their beliefs could claim that these Christian heresies were sent by Allah as some of them possessed some very strange ideas which do no fit with the Koran. (then the whole of the bible doesn’t fit with the Koran and it supposedly confirmed previous revelations yeah right. The only reason that the Koran doesn’t is because those previous revelations were corrupted it has nothing to do with Mohammed being unable to understand the bible.) hahah lol

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

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… In Asia we have the dharmic religions like Hinduism .

all major holy books teach that God is One. Hindu’s holy books also does not teach about Trinity . Sadly both Christians & Hindus follow 3 in 1 God.

listen the lecture of Dr. Zakir in front of Hindu & Christian audiences in India.

“Ekam evadvitiyam”

“He is One only without a second.”
[Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1]

“Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah.”

“Of Him there are neither parents nor lord.”

[Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9]

Na tasya Pratima asti"
“There is no image of Him.”[Yajurveda 32:3]

“Ma cid anyad vi sansata sakhayo ma rishanyata”

“O friends, do not worship anybody but Him, the Divine One. Praise Him alone.” [Rigveda 8:1:1]

Concept of God in Major Religions
1 of 3 by Zakir Naik

youtubeisla
m.com/video/2621/Concept-of-God-in-Major-Religions-1-of-3-by-Zakir-Naik

 

[inJESUS]

all major holy books teach that God is One. Hindu’s holy books also does not teach about Trinity

 

[swariffin]

Jesus most likely spoke Aramaic. Not Hebrew. What do you think his name is in Aramaic?

His title in Aramaic is “Messiah.” The Hebrew equivalent is 'Mashiach," I believe. The Arabic equivalent is “Masih.”

And in fact, the Jews and the Muslims have the same concept of what it means. It’s the Christians who have a different view.


About the name Muhammad–>there’s only 1 “h” and 2 "m"s.

Aramaic and Hebrew is just like Javanese who live in the island of Java talked to each other, but use the Indonesian language talking to the Sundanese, who also live in the island of Java. Sundanese and Javaneses are different language with different vocabulary. Don’t you know that not only Jesus spoke Aramaic and Hebrew, that Jesus also spoke Greek? It was common that many Jews were trilingual during Jesus’ time.

 

[Matariel]

Eilene Pagels is one author in her book “Beyond Belief” that contrasts the two different sects of Johanine and Thomas Christians

Noooooooooooooo!

Not Elaine Pagels!!! Noooooooooooooooo!!!

:stretcher:

 

[cthulhubryan]

Noooooooooooooo!

Not Elaine Pagels!!! Noooooooooooooooo!!!

:stretcher:

Mmmm. Bagels, toasted and warm with cream cheese.

Pagels? Gag. I have only a bachelors in anthropology and I can shoot holes in most of her theories before having caffeine.

 

[Matariel]

Mmmm. Bagels, toasted and warm with cream cheese.

Pagels? Gag. I have only a bachelors in anthropology and I can shoot holes in most of her theories before having caffeine.

Elaine Pagels, archheretic and creatrix of fanciful histories.

 

[Zlatan]

hahah again Muslim woman you avoided my point that nowhere are there any written record in all the cultures which possessed writing or hieroglyphs that all these prophets were sent to all the people on earth preaching the word of a deity called Allah. Produce some evidence from remote cultures in Asia or the Americas to prove this assertion.

 

[Zlatan]

hahah by the way Dr Naik is one of the stupidest and pathetic scholars ever

 

[MelanieAnne]

hahah again Muslim woman you avoided my point that nowhere are there any written record in all the cultures which possessed writing or hieroglyphs that all these prophets were sent to all the people on earth preaching the word of a deity called Allah. Produce some evidence from remote cultures in Asia or the Americas to prove this assertion.

hmmm well there’s always the Book of Mormon, it was brought by an Angel too.

 

[Zlatan]

hmmm well there’s always the Book of Mormon, it was brought by an Angel too.

lol yes but there werent supposed to be any prophets after
mohammed so Joseph Smith doesnt count lol. Nor do mormons worship a diety called allah or have any islamic rituals lol