Islam - Hadiths

[findinganswers]

Don’t worry about English being a second lanquage here. That won’t matter.

But no…I’m not sure why a prophet would be scared…at least not for longer than a few seconds. He was often scared. Look at the 15 year old Mary when Gabriel appeared to her. He was very quick to tell her not to be frightened. There was no fear to be had from him. He did not shake or squeeze or in any way intimidate her. He appeared to tell her she would conceive of the Holy Spirit and give birth to the Son of God. To the great I AM.

My reference in agreeing with you was that I am a God fearing man also.

I’m not sure why a prophet would be scared

Well in Islam prophet’s are human.

Look at the 15 year old Mary when Gabriel appeared to her. He was very quick to tell her not to be frightened.

But she was scared at first was she not? Also how do you know if she still wasn’t scared? Plus don’t you think the Angel Gabriel (May Allah SWT be pleased with him) would approach Mary (MABPWH) differently. She was going to be pregnant you know.

There was no fear to be had from him.

According to the bible: “And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying”

My reference in agreeing with you was that I am a God fearing man also

Well if an average joe like me and you fear God. How do you think a prophet’s fear of God is?

If average Joe’s love God, Prophets love God an infinite times more,

If they rely on God Prophets rely on God an infinite times more,

If they fear god God. Prophets fear God an infinite times more.

Because they are gifted, they are the most knowledgeable, and therefore the most understanding

I would be a bit skeptical if someone was like…Yea I was visited by a angel of God, and man it was totally awesome, I am gonna go celebrate!!! Wahoo, beer is on me!!

 

[jakasaki]

QUOTE=findinganswers;6220233

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was scared before he was squeezed. If you start hearing voices in a cave while you are in meditating your going to be a bit uneasy.

Well, he didn’t hear voices, he claimed **he saw **an angel and the angel spoke to him.

Also you don’t know why he was scared, maybe the thought of carrying a message, from the creator of the Universe, that changed the world, had him feeling a bit shocked and overwhelmed.

A self appointed prophet of God would not and should not feel this way.

While I agree he comforts, I am still a God-fearing man.

God does comfort and when He sends His angels for whatever purpose, the “recipients” are not frightened nor fearful.

 

[findinganswers]

Yes, thank you and I did see your reply.

No, not at all, I do CAPS to capture your/or anyones attention. I will back off the CAPS and will not do it any more because some people take it as yelling or mad. That was not my intention. Thank you for bringing it up.

If allah is all-knowing, why didn’t he know that mohamad could not read?

If allah is all-knowing, why did he send the angel to the cave here mohamad was, but allah didn’t tell the angel that mohamad could not read?

I am an Eastern Orthodox Chistian, AKA Greek Orthodox. And my family is Catholic & Eastern Orthodox.

Yes, I’ve heard that.

:tsktsk: :tsktsk: :tsktsk: ~ we are discussing islamic hadiths. Not Christ and not Aramaic

Indeed you did and I confirm you did state that.

Therefore, I ask again, why didn’t the all knowing allah know that mohamad could not read? Why didn’t allah tell the angel that mohamad could not read?

Now, lets focurs on the word “recite”.

If the angel said “mohamad repeat after me and recite” well that’s different, because mohamad would be able to 'recite & repeat", but that was not the case.

Well whoa there… you said and I quote you:

**Also since Quran also means recite. The Angel Gabriel was telling him to recite. **

All is well, but, since the angel told mohamad to read there is a problem. If the angel to mohamad to “recite” well, there is no problem and mohamad would have “recited”, but he didn’t. He told the angel in the cave he could not.

I’m not “learned” as well, but I do read and I do stayoff the anti-islamic sites.

The website I posted in my initial first pots for the hadiths is 100% authentic for islam.

Perhaps not Shia because they have their own, but for Sunni it is. Please use the site to read the hadiths which I will be posting for discussion.

Now, now… that is not what wrote, nor was it my intention.

I asked as to why you didn’t post your religion on your profile.

I don’t care if you are male or female, where you live, what is your SS# or address or county or city or state.

I don’t care what you eat, what your taste in music is or what is your favorite TV show. Coulnd not care less.

So be it! It just helps others who reply to you to know… that’s all.

If I say I am going to hit the ball with a bat. You would assume that it is a wooden bat because I wouldn’t take hit a ball with a flying animal. Correct. Same thing.

“Iqra” means recite in that context because he wasn’t given anything to read.

we are discussing islamic hadiths. Not Christ and not Aramaic

Yes but you asked me like you don’t believe, Allah (SWT) is all knowing. So I have to respond to know what your beliefs are as well. Because if two people are talking about a subject it is good to know they are on the same page.

If the angel said “mohamad repeat after me and recite” well that’s different, because mohamad would be able to 'recite & repeat", but that was not the case.

See this is the thing, in english you say, “repeat after me and recite” in arabic it could be different maybe you don’t say “repeat after me”. Naturally this is what you were raised with so this is what you are most comfortable with. There is a linguistic barrier which you are not comprehending. For example, in Mexico they say “bueno” when they answer the phone which means good. But in english if I answer the phone with, “Good”. It would be weird. So you can’t implement english narratives on another language and say well this is how they should talk, it would make more sense. Because if you say whats up to anyone other than english speakers they would look in the air confused.

I am neither Sunni nor Shia…I am striving to become a Muslim

So be it! It just helps others who reply to you to know… that’s all.

Yet you immediately knew what I am without me posting it on my profile.

 

[findinganswers]

Well, he didn’t hear voices, he claimed **he saw **an angel and the angel spoke to him.

A self appointed prophet of God would not and should not feel this way.

God does comfort and when He sends His angels for whatever purpose, the “recipients” are not frightened nor fearful.

Ok if you saw an angel…would you not be be a bit uneasy?

A self appointed prophet of God would not and should not feel this way.

I agree, great point, which is why he is is not self appointed.

God does comfort and when He sends His angels for whatever purpose, the “recipients” are not frightened nor fearful.

The Bible says that Mary (May Allah SWT be pleased with her) was scared because Gabrield (May Allah SWT be pleased with him) told him not to be.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I responded to some of those points already. In case I missed.

That (his role) was not even an issue at the time. All he knew was that a spiritual entity had appeared that was now giving orders. And then he launched into an attack, choking him and scaring him so badly that Mohammad hid.

No previously recorded incident with angels has ever been similar. Anything that was similar was quickly identified as demonic activity in the guise of an angel, which if you study the history of monastics was very common. The Desert Fathers often spoke of spiritual discernment and the ability to know the commands of God versus the commands of the evil one.

And when you see fear of divine power, it is always out of fear for God - but what does that fear mean? It means humility and the realization of our own sin, just as Isaiah had when he stood before the throne of God, or St. Peter had when he saw the miracle of the fishnets. That was not the case with Mohammad. His fear was the same fear one might feel walking through the bad part of town at 2 am, or one might feel if someone approaches their car with a gun.

Whatever it was that spoke to Mohammad in that cave, it was not an angel of God.

 

[jakasaki]

Post #23 & #24 noted. I will reply tomorrow. Good night!

 

[jakasaki]

…

 

[jakasaki]

Ok if you saw an angel…would you not be be a bit uneasy?

I agree, great point, which is why he is is not self appointed.

The Bible says that Mary (May Allah SWT be pleased with her) was scared because Gabrield (May Allah SWT be pleased with him) told him not to be.

We as Christians through the Bible are taught to “test” the spirits because satan can disguise himself as an “angel of light”.

The Jews of mohamads time testing his prophetic call and he failed. And that is why they didn’t take him as a prophet of God.

I will not discuss Mother Mary here through the teaching of the Bible, but the Angel Gabriel said to her … “**Fear not Mary”… ** and I will leave it at that.

 

[jakasaki]

Hadiths on **Belief **

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 7:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

Allah’s Apostle said: Islam is based on (the following) five (principles):

1. To testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah **and Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle. **
2. To offer the (compulsory congregational) prayers dutifully and perfectly.
3. To pay Zakat (i.e. obligatory charity) .
4. To perform Hajj. (i.e. Pilgrimage to Mecca)
5. To observe fast during the month of Ramadan.

Now, I presonally have no problem with the 5 principles of islam. The only problem I have is with the "mohamad is allahs apostle" line.

It just does not belong there.

 

[jakasaki]

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 10:

Narrated Abu Musa:

Some people asked Allah’s Apostle, “Whose Islam is the best? i.e. (Who is a very good Muslim)?”

He replied, “**One who avoids harming the Muslims with his tongue and hands.” **

So a good muslim is one who does not harm another muslim only. Nothing here states about all men/women of faiths. Just muslims.

 

[jakasaki]

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 15:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet said, "Whoever possesses the following three qualities will have the sweetness (delight) of faith:

1. The one to whom Allah and His Apostle becomes dearer than anything else.
2. Who loves a person and he loves him only for Allah’s sake.
3. Who hates to revert to Atheism (disbelief) as he hates to be thrown into the fire."

First quality again is OK, but once again,** mohamads name is thrown in there** right next to allah.

This is why muslims go nuts if anyone shows mohamad in a bad light.

 

[findinganswers]

First you state that Iqra means read/recite. Now you state it mans recite because mohamad wasn’t given anything to read. The hadith states the word “read”.

 

[findinganswers]

The Jews of mohamads time testing his prophetic call and he failed. And that is why they didn’t take him as a prophet of God.

Bismallahe Rahmane Rahim.

I am not sure how valid that statement is but if you stand by the tests of Jews then you shouldn’t even be Christian because not all Jews took Jesus (pbuh) as the Messiah.

 

[findinganswers]

Hadiths on **Belief **

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 7:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

Allah’s Apostle said: Islam is based on (the following) five (principles):

1. To testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah **and Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle. **
2. To offer the (compulsory congregational) prayers dutifully and perfectly.
3. To pay Zakat (i.e. obligatory charity) .
4. To perform Hajj. (i.e. Pilgrimage to Mecca)
5. To observe fast during the month of Ramadan.

Now, I presonally have no problem with the 5 principles of islam. The only problem I have is with the "mohamad is allahs apostle" line.

It just does not belong there.

BismiAllahe Rahmane Rahim

The reason why it is obligatory for Muhammad’s (Pbuh) name to be in the first pillar is because he is the Prophet that God chose for his final revelation to mankind. God has put a seal on this revelation and guaranteed it’s preservation.

So for example, the Nation of Islam group that got together in the name of Islam, was spreading information that had nothing to do with Islam. So members such as Malcolm X recite the first pillar, “There is no God but God and Muhammad (pbuh) is the final messenger” they will look back at who Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was . Then they will realize what Prophet Muhammad’s (pbuh) true message was. Just like Malcolm X eventually did.

 

[findinganswers]

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 10:

Narrated Abu Musa:

Some people asked Allah’s Apostle, “Whose Islam is the best? i.e. (Who is a very good Muslim)?”

He replied, “**One who avoids harming the Muslims **with his tongue and hands.”

So a good muslim is one who does not harm another muslim only. Nothing here states about all men/women of faiths. Just muslims.

Bismiallahe Rahmane Rahim.

Let me remind you I am not that learned you questions would be best answered by a Scholar or local Imam.

Let me give you my take on this by giving you an anology:

If you want to do good in your community your going to make sure your good to your own family first. You cannot expect to do wonders in your community while you are oppressing your own spouse and children.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 15:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet said, "Whoever possesses the following three qualities will have the sweetness (delight) of faith:

1. The one to whom Allah and His Apostle becomes dearer than anything else.
2. Who loves a person and he loves him only for Allah’s sake.
3. Who hates to revert to Atheism (disbelief) as he hates to be thrown into the fire."

First quality again is OK, but once again,** mohamads name is thrown in there** right next to allah.

This is why muslims go nuts if anyone shows mohamad in a bad light.

B’ismi Abi, wa Ibni, wa Ruh al-Muqaddas

Although Muhammad (may God grant him pardon and peace) is not considered as having a position like the Son of God, his position as last prophet (rasul) makes his apostleship very important to Muslims. I don’t get it frankly. All around us we find lampoons of Jesus, Moses, Buddha, and none of those who follow them get very upset. Certainly not to the point of murder. Just yesterday, there was a cartoon of Moses coming down the mountain with an iPad. No one worries about this.

 

[findinganswers]

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 15:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet said, "Whoever possesses the following three qualities will have the sweetness (delight) of faith:

1. The one to whom Allah and His Apostle becomes dearer than anything else.
2. Who loves a person and he loves him only for Allah’s sake.
3. Who hates to revert to Atheism (disbelief) as he hates to be thrown into the fire."

First quality again is OK, but once again,** mohamads name is thrown in there** right next to allah.

This is why muslims go nuts if anyone shows mohamad in a bad light.

Bismiallahe Rahmane Rahim,

The way I look at this is this; the prophets (pbut) are most knowledgeable of God. Those closest to the prophets (pbut) will be closer to God. So those who follow in the footsteps of the prophets in their manners, their actions, their appearance will be closer to God.

Mary (MABPWH) mother of Jesus (pbuh) is considered the best example of a Women. Which is why Nuns and Muslim Women cover themselves and value modesty, because she was the best example of a women.

Moses and Jesus (pbut) taught the same thing. If you are close to them then you are close to God. We believe that Christians misinterpreted that and thought Jesus was God.

 

[dzheremi]

But why is such tribalism the focus of Islam, when the previous religion that it claims to be the perfection of, Christianity, was and is universal in nature? It is not that it is wrong to consider ones own family. That is only natural. I certainly do consider the Middle Eastern Christians first before taking any position on a Middle Eastern issue, but that does not mean that harming Muslims, Druze, Yezidi, or any other non-Christian is permissible in the slightest. In fact, you can see on Christian websites like this one about the Christians of Iraq articles also about the massacres of Yezidis in northern Iraq. This is because it is a fundamental principle of Christianity that everyone is created in the image of God. I know Muslims have trouble with this word “image”, but think of it as a way of saying that God created everyone equally, even those people who are not following the correct religion according to our belief.

I do not know why Islam has rescinded this rule, but the consequence of this reduction in humanity is a literal, physical reduction in humanity (by killing of non-Muslims in order to purify “Islamic” lands) and a great spiritual poverty and insecurity in the hearts of Muslims. This is written into the Qur’an even if you argue that nobody kills because of it, because we can see all the verses about guarding the people against “mischief in the land” and similar. Islam is very tribal and worldly.

 

[findinganswers]

But why is such tribalism the focus of Islam, when the previous religion that it claims to be the perfection of, Christianity, was and is universal in nature? It is not that it is wrong to consider ones own family. That is only natural. I certainly do consider the Middle Eastern Christians first before taking any position on a Middle Eastern issue, but that does not mean that harming Muslims, Druze, Yezidi, or any other non-Christian is permissible in the slightest. In fact, you can see on Christian websites like this one about the Christians of Iraq articles also about the massacres of Yezidis in northern Iraq. This is because it is a fundamental principle of Christianity that everyone is created in the image of God. I know Muslims have trouble with this word “image”, but think of it as a way of saying that God created everyone equally, even those people who are not following the correct religion according to our belief.

I do not know why Islam has rescinded this rule, but the consequence of this reduction in humanity is a literal, physical reduction in humanity (by killing of non-Muslims in order to purify “Islamic” lands) and a great spiritual poverty and insecurity in the hearts of Muslims. This is written into the Qur’an even if you argue that nobody kills because of it, because we can see all the verses about guarding the people against “mischief in the land” and similar. Islam is very tribal and worldly.

Tribalism is not a focus in Islam. Islam teaches that animals, plants, and other creations are all muslim (they are in submission to God). Islam teaches teaches that any injustice done to any creature, human or not will be exposed on the day of judgement. You said it yourself,

That is only natural. I certainly do consider the Middle Eastern Christians first before taking any position on a Middle Eastern issue, but that does not mean that harming Muslims, Druze, Yezidi, or any other non-Christian is permissible in the slightest.

Islam doesn’t permit oppressing non muslims either. That hadith doesn’t allow oppression of non muslims either. Where are you getting this information?

This is written into the Qur’an

Where in the Quran?

 

[dzheremi]

Tribalism is not a focus in Islam.

I find that extremely hard to believe, to put it in the nicest terms possible. Islam is extremely tribal. The entire way that it divides the world into “dar al-islam” and “dar al-harb” reflects a tribal mentality where anyone outside of your control is your enemy. You do not see it this way because Islam has inculcated in you a sense that everyone must think this way, so that you say that I am agreeing with you when I say that I consider the fate of Christians first. This is not the same as dividing the world into Christian (good) and Muslim (evil) territories, which is essentially what Islam does. Islam is about territory and tribal allegiances, repackaged within a supposedly “universal” but in reality “universalizing” religion. Instead of preserving cultures in a way that respects them, any culture brought into the ummah accepts the primacy of Arabic as the favored language of God as it happened to be the language of the Qur’an, which coincidentally is preserved in Muhammad’s dialect, as all other variant readings were burned. And you say that this is not tribal? You’ve got to be kidding me! One tribe, within one section of the world, speaking one dialect, was given primacy over all others. You are Amazight, so your Arabic is poor? Too bad! Iqra fil lughat Illah, ya 'abd!

Compare this to the spread of Christianity done by the feet (not the sword!) by Copts, Assyrians, Greeks, Armenians, Ethiopians, and others, and you will see the difference. Islam never had the insulation from the corrosive power of empire that Christianity had prior to its adoption by the Roman Empire in 380 AD. I submit to you that this is because it was never part of Islam to exclude worldly ambitions of conquest and territorial control. We need only look at the drastic change in tone between the Meccan and the Medinan suras to see how they reflected Muhammad’s changing ideology as he personally and his men gained more power to see evidence of this. Islam always had worldly ambitions, as its founder became a brilliant warlord.

Islam doesn’t permit oppressing non muslims either. That hadith doesn’t allow oppression of non muslims either. Where are you getting this information?

Right. So commands to fight the people of the book for not believing in Muhammad or his religion are all just mistakes, then? I guess Allah could’ve used an editor? Maybe he should’ve slept on it before putting such vile commands.

The hadith, for their part (with apologies to Jakasaki for accidentally hijacking her thread…I promise I won’t try to blow it up with a bomb in my underwear, even if my cowardice displeases Islam’s Allah!), are often much worse than even the Qur’an. Some chestnuts for your consideration include the following:

Allah’s Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.” (Bukhari, vol. 4, book 52, no. 177)

The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, “They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans).” (Bukhari, vol. 4, book 52, no. 256)

“Allah’s Apostle said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.’ And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.” Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik, “O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?” He replied, “Whoever says, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’, faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have.”” (Bukhari, vol. 1, book 8, no. 387)

What I get out of these is that Muslims should, in imitation of their prophet, fight us until we become Muslims. And that’s just what they did. Also that the children of pagans are not worthy of being spared. And that Jews should be murdered because talking rocks say so. Yes, very peaceful stuff, all of that. There is more in other collections of hadith, but I prefer to stick to Bukhari because his collections are traditionally accepted as reliable and correct (hence, “sahih”).

Where in the Quran?

I should not have brought this up and derailed the thread, but the prohibition against “mischief in the land” (whatever that means; in modern contexts, this has been essentially the excuse to prevent Egyptians and Malaysians from legally converting to Christianity, except now they call it “public order”) is in Quran 5:33. This is significant to me because not only is it so vague so that almost anything that a Muslim defines as mischievous can be considered under it, but it shows the paramount importance placed preserving “law and order” under **Muhammad and Islam **, not according to the various non-Muslim tribes own manners of self-governance. In other words, it is another way to control physical territory for Islam and Muhammad. Another pseudo-spiritual wrapping of what would otherwise be bare aggression. Again, Islam is very worldly.