Islam - Hadiths

[jakasaki]

Dear CAF friends ~

I am going to bow out of CAF for a while.

For those who know me via Facebook, personal emails & PM’s, know my mom is sick with way too many ailments - it s.u.cks getting old.

Anyway, she was very ill for a few weeks & without getting into detail, on Sunday morning I called 911 to take her to the hospital.

She was checked immediately in ICU because she was coughing up blood, she could not breathe and she was passing out.

I cannot right now support this thread or even participate in any threads.

Just sending this message to all of you so you don’t think that JakaSaki / Pam disappeared / ran off / bailed out …and had all of you scratching your heads.

I love you guys very much, and please pray for me and for my mom. Her name is Helen.

In closing,
Your Sister In Christ
Pam

 

[findinganswers]

Bismiallahe Rahmane Rahim…

Dzheremi,

The Noble Quran is self-reliant. Meaning in order to understand its message the whole book needs to be read and studied in totality. So in order to understand a specific ayat, (you might call verse…but in Arabic it means sign), in the Quran, you must study the rest of the Quran and see how it relates to the original ayat. You cannot just pick ayats here and there and come up with a judgement.

What you see as tribalism I see as identity. I am striving to become a Muslim. You are not. There is not one religion in the world which does not identify itself.

For you to say that we are enemies with everyone that is not Muslim, is totally false. In the holy Quran it allows a Muslim man to marry a Christian or Jewish woman. So are we to be enemies with our spouses. You are reading one part but you lack knowledge of its overall message and so you are coming up with premature conclusions.

so your Arabic is poor? Too bad!

I am in the proces of learning Arabic as we speak. I don’t feel like its “too bad”. Allah SWT has given me a brain and blessed me with an ability to learn. So I learn.

The Noble Quran was revealed in Arabic. Have you heard of “lost in translation”? Why would I want to risk that with a message from my creator?? Wouldn’t you want to be able to speak Armaic? So you can know how the beautiful words sounded and what they meant when they were coming out of Jesus’ (pbuh) mouth? What was emphasized what was not, what was words were heavier and which were light? Just because you don’t have the will or the resources to learn Jesus’ native tongue does not mean you can put down the importance muslims put in Arabic. It seems like you are tasting some sour grapes.

Please do not throw stones in a glass house.

Islam was spread by the sword? Please look up the Inquisition and the Crusades.

Islam always had worldly ambitions

WOW that right there is the most far off comment I have ever heard of Islam. Please redo your research and look up Dunya (world) and Quran.

Right. So commands to fight the people of the book for not believing

In the Holy Quran it addresses the need to defend yourself against oppression. But to never be the aggressor.

I want to see what you do if someone comes in your house and attacks you and your family.

As far as your remark on attacking women and children. There are many more hadiths that quote Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) condemned and disapproved the attacks. The Hadith which you are quoting, was in a unusual circumstance. Scholars said that the in that instance the women and children are picking up arms. Today there are many children in Iraq in Afghanistan that are picking up arms. You think the Marine is like, No way that is a child I’ll just let it shoot whoever they want??

Now I repeat, please don’t throw stones in a glass house. What does the BIBLE SAY ABOUT ATTACKS ON WOMEN IN CHILDREN.

Here are some “chestnuts for your consideration”:

Deuteronomy 2:33-34

Numbers 31:17-18

That is just a couple of many…

What I get out of these is that

You should get nothing out of these, until you do more thorough research and study.

If one was telling the story of WW2 and the only part that was mentioned was the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima your views and judgements will be limited.

Your narrow and limited views on Islam is never more obvious than in your last paragraph…

I should not have brought this up and derailed the thread, but the prohibition against “mischief in the land” (whatever that means; in modern contexts, this has been essentially the excuse to prevent Egyptians and Malaysians from legally converting to Christianity, except now they call it “public order”) is in Quran 5:33.

You pick 3 words out of the translation of the Noble Quran and you come to a great misguided misunderstood conclusion.

The Ayat you mentioned 5:33, first you must read 5:32 as it translates:

*For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah’s Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.
*

In this Ayat it condemns killing and corruption because it is as if you killed all mankind.

Then 5:33 says…

*The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
*

So this goes for people who wage war on Islam. Again it is for AGGRESSORS.

Then in 5:34

*Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. *

So once they repent or offer peace, do not overpower them, aggression is not allowed in Islam.

I am sorry you have been exposed to such limited and biased views against Islam. My rebuttals to your posts prove it.

I do not care to take part in such debates. I actually came to this forum just to learn about Catholicism but had no Idea that such misunderstood and ignorant threads were posted against Islam.

 

[Jay53]

The Noble Quran was revealed in Arabic. Have you heard of “lost in translation”? Why would I want to risk that with a message from my creator?? Wouldn’t you want to be able to speak Armaic? So you can know how the beautiful words sounded and what they meant when they were coming out of Jesus’ (pbuh) mouth? What was emphasized what was not, what was words were heavier and which were light? Just because you don’t have the will or the resources to learn Jesus’ native tongue does not mean you can put down the importance muslims put in Arabic. It seems like you are tasting some sour grapes.

This is absurd! Jesus’ message is universal - it does not need to be presented in a particular language to be received or understood. There is also nothing in Christianity that suggests that God will only accept certain prayers in a certain language!!!

Please do not throw stones in a glass house.

 

[Jay53]

Part 2:

1003 First persecutions by al-Hakim; the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed.

1009 Destruction of the Church of the Resurrection by al-Hakim (see 937)

1012 Beginning of al-Hakim’s oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians

1015 Earthquake in Palestine; the dome of the Dome of the Rock collapses.

1031 Collapse of Umayyid Caliphate and establishment of 15 minor independent dynasties throughout Muslim Andalus

1048 Reconstruction of the Church of the Resurrection completed

1050 Creation of Almoravid (Muslim Crusaders) movement in Mauretania; Almoravids (also known as Murabitun) are coalition of western Saharan Berbers; followers of Islam, focusing on the Quran, the hadith, and Maliki law.

1055 Seljuk Prince Tughrul enters Baghdad, consolidation of the Seljuk Sultanate.

1055 Confiscation of property of Church of the Resurrection

1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks (Muslim Crusaders) defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia.

1071 Turks (Muslim Crusaders) invade Palestine.

1073 Conquest of Jerusalem by Turks (Muslim Crusaders)

1075 Seljuks (Muslim Crusaders) capture Nicea (Iznik) and make it their capital in Anatolia.

1076 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) conquer western Ghana.

1085 Toledo is taken back by Christian armies.

1086 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) send help to Andalus, Battle of Zallaca.

1090-1091 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands.

1094 Byzantine Emperor Alexius Comnenus I asks western Christendom for help against Seljuk invasions of his territory; Seljuks are Muslim Turkish family of eastern origins; see 970.

1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099

 

[findinganswers]

Bismiallahe Rahmane Rahim,

This is absurd! Jesus’ message is universal - it does not need to be presented in a particular language to be received or understood. There is also nothing in Christianity that suggests that God will only accept certain prayers in a certain language!!!

I have no Idea why you have angry emoticon in there.

I agree Jesus (pbuh) message was universal. I think in order to get the full potency of Jesus’s message it would be best to hear it in its original language.

For example…If an American says … “Hell Yeaaa!!! I am going to have a fun time”

A foreigner might take this as why would this American think he is going to have a good time in Hell.

Meanings are lost in translation. If you can’t acknowledge this then I do not know what to say.

There is nothing in Islam that says that God will only accept prayers in a certain language either. But prayers are best for the muslim when it is recited in Arabic. Arabic is like hebrew that it is a 3 letter root system which doesn’t translate easily in other languages. It looses its meaning, potency and its rhythm. Why do you think all the prophets spoke languages that have so many similarities??? Just for fun? Or was it planned? We believe Allah SWT is the ultimate planner. We believe the prophets were ultimate examples of what God loves in a human. So we imitate them in our brief time in this world. This means, the way we talk, walk , eat, write, clean, sleep, work, love, PRAY etc. etc.

When muslim women see Mary (MABPWH) they think wow she was such a modest woman and a great example for other women, we should act, dress and carry ourselves.

Prayer doesn’t benefit God one bit. God is self-sustaining. Prayer only helps the one who is praying. So it is best for the one is praying to follow in the footsteps of the ones closest and most knowledgeable of God. The prophets!

 

[dzheremi]

The Noble Quran is self-reliant. Meaning in order to understand its message the whole book needs to be read and studied in totality. So in order to understand a specific ayat, (you might call verse…but in Arabic it means sign), in the Quran, you must study the rest of the Quran and see how it relates to the original ayat. You cannot just pick ayats here and there and come up with a judgement.

So you are saying that in order to discuss ONE verse/sign in the Qur’an, I have to read the entire thing? I might as well say that in order to discuss the Bible you need to read both the OT and NT testaments in their original Hebrew, Greek, and Syriac. Talk about an undue burden! Here is why I do not buy your flimsy defense: When you bring out one verse from the Qur’an, the Muslim asks for the context. When you present the verse in context (meaning, with the other verses that surround it), the Muslim tells you that you’re just not understanding it. There is no way to get a Muslim to admit that the verses are not even contextually justifiable. I don’t even bother with that anymore, because Muslims will not admit to anything bad in their Qur’an, and the all-important contexts are generally not illuminating because the Qur’an is such a disjointed, repetitive, incoherent jumble.

What you see as tribalism I see as identity. I am striving to become a Muslim. You are not. There is not one religion in the world which does not identify itself.

Your last sentence is true, but Islam is unique in identifying itself primarily with ONE culture above all others, and thus giving primacy to that culture in many ways. Christianity is not the providence of the Greeks, or the Syriacs, or the Spaniards or whoever else above the Arabs, Slavs, Dinka, or whoever else.

For you to say that we are enemies with everyone that is not Muslim, is totally false.

So you say.

In the holy Quran it allows a Muslim man to marry a Christian or Jewish woman. So are we to be enemies with our spouses.

But you are enemies with your spouses’ religion. This is why Coptic girls are kidnapped in Egypt and forcibly converted to Islam, because it destroys the Coptic community and makes more Muslims. They are seduced or kidnapped, made to convert to Islam, and then Muslims brag about how many Copts come into Islam every year. But if one Muslim wants to become a Copt, the Church cannot receive them for fear that it will cause “scandal” to the society (corruption in the land?). The idea that you say that you are not our enemy because you are religiously sanctioned to destroy our communities makes me want to throw up. Save for someone who will believe such one-sided propaganda.

I am in the proces of learning Arabic as we speak. I don’t feel like its “too bad”. Allah SWT has given me a brain and blessed me with an ability to learn. So I learn.

That’s great. I also have learned a little bit of Arabic, and may be learning more in the future. Mabruk. That is also entirely NOT my point for bringing that up, so I don’t know why you think this is at all related to anything I wrote.

The Noble Quran was revealed in Arabic. Have you heard of “lost in translation”? Why would I want to risk that with a message from my creator??

Why do you even think you would? It is just because you have bought into this false elevation of Quranic Arabic as being the language of God that you think you must speak Arabic to be able to really understand the Qur’an, as though there’s something so inherently special and different about Arabic that is not true about other languages that it really cannot be translated. I have news for you: I have worked in translation, and all languages are translatable. There is no language that is so darn special that you cannot translate it so that the message of the words will be clear. You just like to pretend that this is not the case with Arabic because you buy Islamic lies about miraculous nature of the Qur’an that make you completely disregard linguistic science. It’s sad.

Wouldn’t you want to be able to speak Armaic?

This is not the issue here, but yes, I would like to. But not at all because Christians have this same fetish as Muslims. Our God speaks to all people.

So you can know how the beautiful words sounded and what they meant when they were coming out of Jesus’ (pbuh) mouth?

Abun d’bashmayo, Nethqadash shmokh, tithe malkuthokh…

I think we do just fine. The main point is to get you to understand that even when we do learn our Lord’s holy tongue, it is not out of the same sort of motivation that Muslims have for learning Arabic. It is not because we cannot also say it in English or Spanish or Russian or what have you. We do not believe that there is one language of God. Our Lord was and is multilingual.

Just because you don’t have the will or the resources to learn Jesus’ native tongue does not mean you can put down the importance muslims put in Arabic. It seems like you are tasting some sour grapes.

So says you. You are assuming a lot about how I must feel. We will see what the people Mar Jirjis school, Taw Mim Simkath, or the Friends of the Syriac Language have to say about my progress, God-willing…

 

[dzheremi]

Please do not throw stones in a glass house.

Good advice for all, I’d say.

Islam was spread by the sword? Please look up the Inquisition and the Crusades.

Please look up the definition of the word “irrelevant”.

WOW that right there is the most far off comment I have ever heard of Islam. Please redo your research and look up Dunya (world) and Quran.

The proof is in the Qur’an and I don’t need to tell you what “Al-Anfal” means, do I? It is the name of a chapter of the Qur’an, all about the spoils of war. I didn’t put it there.

In the Holy Quran it addresses the need to defend yourself against oppression. But to never be the aggressor.

No. No, that is not what the verse in question says. It says fight those who do not believe in Muhammad and Islam. In other words, fight them for what they believe, not necessarily what they do.

I want to see what you do if someone comes in your house and attacks you and your family.

You mean like what Muslims do to Christians in Iraq, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. because of what they believe? I would fight it if I could, of course! But Christians know that this means certain death for them and their communities. We are in such a state of subjugation in much of the “Muslim” world.

As far as your remark on attacking women and children. There are many more hadiths that quote Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) condemned and disapproved the attacks.

And? So Muhammad was inconsistent. That’s good to know.

The Hadith which you are quoting, was in a unusual circumstance. Scholars said that the in that instance the women and children are picking up arms. Today there are many children in Iraq in Afghanistan that are picking up arms. You think the Marine is like, No way that is a child I’ll just let it shoot whoever they want??

Which scholars where? I would like to read them for myself.

 

[dzheremi]

Now I repeat, please don’t throw stones in a glass house. What does the BIBLE SAY ABOUT ATTACKS ON WOMEN IN CHILDREN.

The verses you quote are war chronicles of the ancient Hebrews. There is an awful lot of violence in them, isn’t there? But there is also nothing to indicate that they are to stand for all time, as Muhammad’s example is supposed to stand (or so I am told by Muslims), and they are besides that instructions from the Lord to Moses, et. al., not instructions from Muhammad to his men. If you cannot tell the difference, then Islam seems like even less the true, strict tawhid-based religion that it claims to be. There are also parts of the Bible where the Lord used the Assyrians, for instance, to punish Israel. But God is always the sovereign, not Muhammad, and these are historical chronicles, not immutable laws coming from one man claiming a revelation that turns upside all that came before it.

If one was telling the story of WW2 and the only part that was mentioned was the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima your views and judgements will be limited.

Hold on now. You were the one who wanted to know where in the Qur’an and where in the Hadith I was finding violent passages, and now that I show them to you you want to complain that I am being unfair? You asked to see the violence! And now you say I should’ve also quoted non-violent passages to present a balanced judgment? Well, here you go, here is as unbalanced a judgment as I can manage: There is a great deal of peaceful talk in the Qur’an and the Hadith. But I do not see it as being anything more than that, as in one place the Qur’an talks peace with people (Christians, Jews, whoever), and in another place it will say the exact opposite. With Christ, we never got conflicting messages. That’s why I trust Christ and His claims over Muhammad and his claims. Christ performed the miracles, taught the lessons, and resurrected on the third day. Muhammad taught a good lesson here, and a bad one here, and never did anything to confirm anything he said. So even if some of his lessons are good (or at least not objectionable, since I have yet to find anything in even the best of what Islam has to offer that matches Christianity, let alone surpasses it), overall I must say it’s a failure.

You pick 3 words out of the translation of the Noble Quran and you come to a great misguided misunderstood conclusion.

The Ayat you mentioned 5:33, first you must read 5:32 as it translates:

*For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah’s Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.
*

In this Ayat it condemns killing and corruption because it is as if you killed all mankind.

Then 5:33 says…

*The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
*

So this goes for people who wage war on Islam. Again it is for AGGRESSORS.

By putting them together like that, it seems even worse to me. It seems to be attempting to compare those who kill remorselessly and without reason to those who fight against Muhammad and the offensive spread of his religion. There is no equivalency here, but that Muhammad would like you to believe there is! Poor Muhammad, he is so oppressed!

Then in 5:34

*Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. *

So once they repent or offer peace, do not overpower them, aggression is not allowed in Islam.

This is not what we see in practice, however. Not even from Muhammad. And besides, let’s not pretend that “repentance” in this context means contriteness towards having willfully performed a sinful action, as it would in everyday life. When a warlord, like Muhammad, comes to your village and orders you to convert to his religion and threatens to enslave your family or kill you for being against him, it is not enough to say “oops, I guess I was wrong in resisting you! Sorry, it won’t happen again!” Of course conversion to Islam would come sooner or later for all but the most dedicated. The very reason that so many tribes fought against Muhammad in the first place was that his new religion came to them at the expense of their way of life, and they did not want to be Muslim and submit to his laws! And, yes, in such a case I would like to take up arms against it. Unfortunately, for Christians in the Muslim-occupied lands that is no longer an option, as they are always small, oppressed minorities. The visible uprisings in modern history (“Iraq” 1933, anyone?) are all crushed by the Muslims. And, besides, it is not the Christian way to first reach for the gun or the knife. It is only under extreme duress that this might happen, and even then the world is against us because it has also bought the Islamicized history. But I’ll still support the Christian resistance to such barbarism in Lebanon, Iraq, Nigeria, or any other place where Muslims seek to impose themselves on non-Muslims.

 

[dzheremi]

I am sorry you have been exposed to such limited and biased views against Islam. My rebuttals to your posts prove it.

No, your rebuttals prove your own desire to defend your religion against what you see as my misunderstanding of it. The truth, I’m willing to contend, probably lies somewhere in the middle. At no point would I ever claim to be a scholar of Islam, but that doesn’t mean I’ll be a useful idiot for it, either. I admire your zeal, but you’re never going to convince me that Islam is the perfect religion of love and peace towards all that you apparently think it is. I know far too many non-Muslims who have had much more intimate contact with Islam and its ideology and fruits to believe in such a naive picture of it.

I do not care to take part in such debates. I actually came to this forum just to learn about Catholicism but had no Idea that such misunderstood and ignorant threads were posted against Islam.

Here is an idea for you: If you want to learn about Catholicism, do not post in threads about Islam. Otherwise, I must say I find it a little silly for you to claim that you had no idea that threads on a Catholic forum would be anti-Islam. We’ve always been anti-Islam, and inshallah we always will be.

(Whewww! 4 splits for one reply! I think that’s a new record.)

 

[wwolverine]

I am learning Arabic, so my knowledge is limited.

But the word that Angel Gabriel (pbuh) used was “iqra” which means recite or read.

I have checked with some arabs, whose native language is arabic and from saudi, and according to them,

IKRA means to read

TILAWA MEANS TO RECITE.
the other definations or words that are given for recite are

YASRID meaning to RECITING fast
YANSHUD meaning reciting poems or songs with no music
and YATLOU
AND last word for recite is TIKRAR.

although the last word sounded like IKRA to me who dont know arabic, and i had to ask them to repeat more than twice, till I got it, That its not the same word, and mind you Mohammad was a native arab, who would have know the difference in the words.

 

[Jay53]

When muslim women see Mary (MABPWH) they think wow she was such a modest woman and a great example for other women, we should act, dress and carry ourselves.

Except for the fact that Mary knew/knows that her Son is God. Muslims conveniently overlook that part of her life - that she witnessed His suffering, His crucifixion and death and His Resurrection.

(See also: Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Lourdes etc etc.)

As to the rest of your post, please see dzheremi’s responses. He has explained it much better than I could.

OK - back to the topic at hand: Islam - Hadiths.

 

[findinganswers]

Bismiallahe Rahmane Rahim

So you are saying that in order to discuss ONE verse/sign in the Qur’an, I have to read the entire thing? I might as well say that in order to discuss the Bible you need to read both the OT and NT testaments in their original Hebrew, Greek, and Syriac.

Ultimately yes…I view my life here as a brief test. I know I have a creator, I would want to make sure I am on the path which my creator wants me to be on. I am blessed with a brain and the ability to learn. I pray God always guides to where he wants me to be in. But I have to put in the effort and time to and the tools I am blessed with to gain as much knowledge as I can.

When you bring out one verse from the Qur’an, the Muslim asks for the context. When you present the verse in context (meaning, with the other verses that surround it), the Muslim tells you that you’re just not understanding

The only time you mentioned anything from the translation of the Noble Quran, is when you mentioned 3 words. Not an ayat not a couple ayats. 3 words!! From 5:33. Then I showed you its context by adding 5:32 and 5:34 and the rest of 5:33.

Your last sentence is true, but Islam is unique in identifying itself primarily with ONE culture above all others, and thus giving primacy to that culture in many ways.

This depends on your definition of Culture. If you mean beliefs. Our beliefs are based on the Quran. Then yes we believe that the Quran is infallible indestructable unalterated word of Allah SWT, creator of all.

But don’t Christians believe that about the bible? Don’t Christians believe that if we don’t accept Jesus’ (pbuh) supposed sacrifice for the world, then we are to be damned burning in fire for he rest of our lives???

I have no idea how you are differentiating the 2

I think your beef is with the value we put in the language of Arabic. I believe God is the master planner. Don’t you? I believe everything happened for a reason. Don’t you? Well then why did all the prophets (peace be upon them) speak similar type languages. Do you think God Almighty did eenee minnie miny mo and randomly picked languages to convey his message? Arabic is not my native tongue. I gladly deal with the fact that I have to learn Arabic to better understand the message.

 

[findinganswers]

Christianity is not the providence of the Greeks, or the Syriacs, or the Spaniards or whoever else above the Arabs, Slavs, Dinka, or whoever else.

That is your belief, to me I am a striving muslim human being before I am anything else.

So you say.

So you say I say

But you are enemies with your spouses’ religion.

how does that work?? I don’t think any religion is my enemy unless it is satanism. I think there are many beautiful things that Christianity teaches. I think there are many beautiful things Judaism teaches. Even Hinduism and Buddhism. In Islam we are taught that Allah SWT has sent 124000 prophets Including the most popular ones…Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ishmael, Moses, John the Baptist, Jesus, and last but not least Muhammad peace be upon them all. I think all religions which were started before Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) were once started by a prophet and and ultimately their message was changed. Look at teachings of Buddhism and the similarities of it an the 3 monotheistic religions. I don’t think that was by accident. This is why I respect all of them because its’ message was from Allah SWT. While some of it has been changed by man some of it has not. So how can I not respect a religion that has some of Allah SWT’s original teachings.

As far as the coptic girls…I have no Idea what you are talking about. But I thought we were talking about the teachings of the specific religions not what so called followers do. Because Hitler was brought up as a catholic but I am not going to blame Catholicsm for bringing up such an evil man. I am not going to blame Christianity for David Koresh. Its ridiculous.

Save for someone who will believe such one-sided propaganda.

You??? ONE SIDED??? NOOOOOO…shaw:

That is also entirely NOT my point for bringing that up, so I don’t know why you think this is at all related to anything I wrote.

because you said…

so your Arabic is poor? Too bad!

Why do you even think you would? It is just because you have bought into this false elevation of Quranic Arabic as being the language of God that you think you must speak Arabic to be able to really understand the Qur’an, as though there’s something so inherently special and different about Arabic that is not true about other languages that it really cannot be translated. I have news for you: I have worked in translation, and all languages are translatable. There is no language that is so darn special that you cannot translate it so that the message of the words will be clear. You just like to pretend that this is not the case with Arabic because you buy Islamic lies about miraculous nature of the Qur’an that make you completely disregard linguistic science. It’s sad.

Why do I think it would? Because I have had first hand experience. Again let me repeat Arabic is not my native tongue. Growing up I had the same frustrations…I was like how come I have to learn Arabic to understand it fully. I thought Reciting it in English is good enough. For people who do not have the time, ability nor the resources to learn Arabic I think it will suffice. But if you are not constricted it is encouraged to learn Arabic. I started learning about the differences in the language. While I agree all languages can be translated, but you loose potency in the weight of the words or phrases when translated. Also when you read the Quran in Arabic it is in a rhythmic prose that I would have not heard if it was just in English. One of the Quran’s Miracles is its literary miracle. It is the first book ever in Arabic. Then there are little small details that I consider cherries on top of the ice cream when its read in Arabic.

For Example: There is a palindrome in the Quran. Palindromes are usually rare. Racecar was my favorite one until I found this in the Quran. It says…

وَرَبَّكَ فَكَبِّرْ spelled ر ب ب ك ف ك ب ب ر

It means “and magnify the greatness of your lord” It is hard to find a palindrome period but to find one with such awesome and beautifull meaning. WOW!!

That is just a small example…

 

[findinganswers]

This is not the issue here, but yes, I would like to. But not at all because Christians have this same fetish as Muslims. Our God speaks to all people.

Yes I agree Allah SWT speaks to all. I think the Creator of the Universe has down every language to the dot.

But his last revelation was in Arabic. It doesn’t benefit God for me to learn Arabic. It only benefits me.

Abun d’bashmayo, Nethqadash shmokh, tithe malkuthokh…

Cool you know some Armaic…What does that mean?

We do not believe that there is one language of God. Our Lord was and is multilingual.

Cool…I agree with that. Allah SWT is all knowing.

So says you. You are assuming a lot about how I must feel. We will see what the people Mar Jirjis school, Taw Mim Simkath, or the Friends of the Syriac Language have to say about my progress, God-willing…

My apologies, for my assumptions. I have not met any Christian that has learned Armaic, or is learning Armaic. Where are these schools? How long have you been attending?

Please look up the definition of the word “irrelevant”.

OHHHH but I am the one who is one sided…

The proof is in the Qur’an and I don’t need to tell you what “Al-Anfal” means, do I? It is the name of a chapter of the Qur’an, all about the spoils of war. I didn’t put it there.

I believe you when you say you didn’t put it there. That would be the creator of the Heavens. You don’t have to tell me that. Please read that sura, (not just the title) and tell me how Allah SWT teaches to pursue worldly desires.

No. No, that is not what the verse in question says. It says fight those who do not believe in Muhammad and Islam. In other words, fight them for what they believe, not necessarily what they do.

Why don’t you quote them then…I quoted it for you…5:32, 5:33, and 5:34.

Don’t just respond with a few vague words of hoopla boopla.

ou mean like what Muslims do to Christians in Iraq, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. because of what they believe? I would fight it if I could, of course! But Christians know that this means certain death for them and their communities. We are in such a state of subjugation in much of the “Muslim” world.

Again I am not going to discuss heresay and the “one-sided” propoganda. I can sit here for the next ten years and talk about the **MILLIONS **of muslims attacked in Iraq and Afghanistan.

So Muhammad was inconsistent. That’s good to know.

Wrong again. If a marine is in a war, and has one 13 year old boy who is about to throw a bomb at a group of his soilders and another 13 year old boy who is hiding unarmed in a closet. You tell me what is right and what is wrong for the Marine to do?

Which scholars where? I would like to read them for myself.

Imam Nawawi is one…

 

[Jay53]

But don’t Christians believe that about the bible? Don’t Christians believe that if we don’t accept Jesus’ (pbuh) supposed sacrifice for the world, then we are to be damned burning in fire for he rest of our lives???

I have no idea how you are differentiating the 2

No, Christians do not believe that. Only God judges people and their actions. We cannot ever know who is or is not in Hell.

(As a side note, there is no “supposed” sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus was crucified, died and rose from the dead. There were eyewitnesses to all of this, including Jesus’ own mother. It is only Satan who wishes to deny our salvation through Jesus.)

 

[Jay53]

Again I am not going to discuss heresay and the “one-sided” propoganda. I can sit here for the next ten years and talk about the **MILLIONS **of muslims attacked in Iraq and Afghanistan.

This is off topic. But I would like to find out how many of these “MILLIONS” of muslims attacked in Iraq and Afghanistan have been attacked by other Muslims who want to assert their own interpretation of Islam.

 

[findinganswers]

The verses you quote are war chronicles of the ancient Hebrews. There is an awful lot of violence in them, isn’t there? But there is also nothing to indicate that they are to stand for all time, as Muhammad’s example is supposed to stand (or so I am told by Muslims), and they are besides that instructions from the Lord to Moses, et. al., not instructions from Muhammad to his men. If you cannot tell the difference, then Islam seems like even less the true, strict tawhid-based religion that it claims to be. There are also parts of the Bible where the Lord used the Assyrians, for instance, to punish Israel. But God is always the sovereign, not Muhammad, and these are historical chronicles, not immutable laws coming from one man claiming a revelation that turns upside all that came before it.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) lived under, 13 years of oppression and even attempted assination, until he got the word to fight back. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), would not have lifted a finger if it wasn’t ok with Allah SWT.

Also there is no account of Allah SWT instructing Moses to kill sinless innocent children in the Quran. Why would the most merciful instruct this??

With Christ, we never got conflicting messages. That’s why I trust Christ and His claims over Muhammad and his claims.

Neither Jesus nor Muhammad, peace and blessings of God be upon them both, had conflicting messages, they were prophets of God Almighty and Guided one hundred percent by God.

Now if you want to argue that the bible doesn’t have conflicting messages thats a whole different story.

By putting them together like that, it seems even worse to me. It seems to be attempting to compare those who kill remorselessly and without reason to those who fight against Muhammad and the offensive spread of his religion.

Not sure hwo you came to that conclusion…are you getting tired of thinking??

5:32 says dont kill anyone 5:33 says if your transgress there will be a punishment 5:34 says if they do transgress but stop then do not overpowerthem, Allah SWT is most forgiving and most merciful.

This is not what we see in practice, however.

Again you bring up what people practice. Go to Las Vegas and see the number of people with Crosses tattood on their arms and see what kind of acts they are practicing. We are not talking about whats being practiced we are talking about what the religions are teaching. There are good and bad people in every religion. I am sure there are many many good Christians and a few bad ones. I am not going to fault the religion cause of the few bad ones.

Then you go of some rant about made up stories which have no reference. I find more truth in alice in wonderland then the rest of your spew.

No, your rebuttals prove your own desire to defend your religion against what you see as my misunderstanding of it.

Wrong my rebuttals are proving that you are misunderstanding and lacking knowledge. It is obvious that you have been looking into anti-islamic resources for all your knowledge and claim that you are not “one-sided”. You are taking things out of context.

I admire your zeal, but you’re never going to convince me that Islam is the perfect religion of love and peace towards all that you apparently think it is.

I am not here to convince you, it would be blasphemous for me to even think I can. Only the creator of the heavens and earth can open your heart.

I know far too many non-Muslims who have had much more intimate contact with Islam and its ideology and fruits to believe in such a naive picture of it.

…and I know far too many athiests who can come up with what sounds like good arguments that my ancestors were monkeys. But ultimately I follow my own heart.

Here is an idea for you: If you want to learn about Catholicism, do not post in threads about Islam.

That was my intention until my curiosity got the better of me and I started to read all the rants on Islam.

Otherwise, I must say I find it a little silly for you to claim that you had no idea that threads on a Catholic forum would be anti-Islam.

You don’t have to be a Muslim to be respectful or at least study a subject before you spout of such non-supported hatred. I don’t think Jesus (peace be upon him) ever taught such a thing.

We’ve always been anti-Islam, and inshallah we always will be.

WOW. So now it become clear. Your hatred has sealed not only your heart but your mind as well. Good luck

I pray for God’s Guidance, and pray that I can have the strength to submit to him in whichever way he wishes me to submit.

 

[findinganswers]

No, Christians do not believe that. Only God judges people and their actions. We cannot ever know who is or is not in Hell.

(As a side note, there is no “supposed” sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus was crucified, died and rose from the dead. There were eyewitnesses to all of this, including Jesus’ own mother. It is only Satan who wishes to deny our salvation through Jesus.)

Why are you speaking all of the sudden Dzheremi speaks for you, remember? Plus the only thing you have added thus far is copying and pasting nonsense.

Wait hold on…

No, Christians do not believe that.

but…

As a side note, there is no “supposed” sacrifice of Jesus.Jesus was crucified, died and rose from the dead.

So what was the sacrifice for then?

 

[findinganswers]

This is off topic. But I would like to find out how many of these “MILLIONS” of muslims attacked in Iraq and Afghanistan have been attacked by other Muslims who want to assert their own interpretation of Islam.

I would like to also it will be interesting to know. Because it is a well known fact that the CIA had trained both Osama Bin Laden, and the Taliban, prior to 911 not to mention it helped Saddam Hussein gain its power in the first place.

 

[Jay53]

Neither Jesus nor Muhammad, peace and blessings of God be upon them both, had conflicting messages, they were prophets of God Almighty and Guided one hundred percent by God.

Just for a couple of examples:

Jesus told us divorce is not acceptable (See Mark 10:10-12), yet Muhammad says it is OK.

Jesus also said:

You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.’
"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
"Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
"Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
"You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’
"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. Matthew 5:39-45

Yet, that is not what Muhammad teaches.

Jesus also predicted his death and resurrection (Mark 10:32-34; Matthew 16:21-23; Mark 8:31-32; Mark 9:29-31; Luke 18:31-34; Matthew 20:17-19) yet Muhammad claims it never happened.

Those are definitely conflicting messages.