Islam is a religion of peace and is tolerant of other religions?

[Abd_al-Haqq]

kristyn:

I am quoting all of your self-ritous ranting for a reason, being if you think our bible is so corrupt why are you using it to prove your silly point? (only fellow devout Catholics will understand my use of the word “silly” as it is not worth, at this point, to explain our Faith, because you are not humble and open enough to unerstand any bit of it)
In charity,
kristyn

Now that you have learned to quote, the next step would be for you to engage the points instead of making a silly charade such that you can excuse yourself from directly responding.
Part of your excuse to deflect reveals that you fail to understand the underlying point of this thread: Textual criticism, or my personal feeling about the transmission of the Hebrew Scriptures, is irrelevant to show that you and a few others argue from a case of special pleading when you “argue from violence” with regards to Islam. Let me show you with an analogy.

Krystan: I believe in strict gun control.
Ephraim: I believe we should be allowed to have firearms.
Krystan: Individuals have no need to own firearms.
Ephraim: So why do you own them.
Krystan: You feel the brand of firearm I use is poor quality, so who are you to question me.

It is not a matter of me being self-righteous, but it is a matter of you being in denial as you attempt to save your use of “argument from violence” and still feel good about it.

 

[spiritblows]

Yes, violence is sometime advocated in the Koran, but not all Muslims are violent. But, there is an ongoing violent theme to Islam not found in other world religions.

**1. (Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them.”

1. (Koran 2:216) “Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not.”
2. (Koran 69:30-37) “It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise… Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful.”
3. (Koran 69:30-37) “(It will be said) Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in God the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but sinners eat.”
4. (Koran 22: 19-22) “These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning.” **

Those are just samplings of many horrific verses in the Koran. Pretty disturbing stuff, if you ask me. But most Muslims by and large don’t seem to be different than Christians.

 

[Shadowcry]

Gone for a while and can’t even follow this discussion lol.

 

[StMarkEofE]

spiritblows:

Yes, violence is sometime advocated in the Koran, but not all Muslims are violent. But, there is an ongoing violent theme to Islam not found in other world religions.

**1. (Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them.” **

**2. (Koran 2:216) “Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not.” **

3. (Koran 69:30-37) "It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise… Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful."

**4. (Koran 69:30-37) “(It will be said) Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in God the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but sinners eat.” **

**6. (Koran 22: 19-22) “These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning.” **

Those are just samplings of many horrific verses in the Koran. Pretty disturbing stuff, if you ask me. But most Muslims by and large don’t seem to be different than Christians.

In the Quran can one find words like: “…offer the other cheek”? or “Love your neighbor as thyself”? or “Blessed are the peachmakers…”? or anything having to do with Love in general? All I get from this forum is “tolerance” “justice” but no sign of love whatsoever except the love shown to Allah by Muslims.

StMarkEofE

 

[Abd_al-Haqq]

cute2904:

I’m here not to share my personal experiences but I’m here trying to show how cruel your doctrines are.

You say you are not here to offer personal experiences? So far, that is all you have had to offer, and you continue to feel that all we need is to read your complaints as a way to truly understand religion. When you are shown violent acts committed by your loving Gd, you ignore it, and then somehow assert that it is “ok” as long as it is in the OT. Your plank in your eye is certainly blinding.

Why should I show any intellectual integrity?

Thank you for you honest confession: Why should I show any intellectual integrity? That speaks volumes about you. Given that you have chosen to “ignore” evidence from the words of your own Gd that display actions worse than what you can pull out of the Quran.
If you cannot live up to honesty in your position, and withdraw any element of intellectual integrity, then indeed, your position is “intellectually bankrupt”.

cute2904:

To know how cruel your doctrine doesnt need any intellectual integrity. Just using your common sense. Ordinary people like me doesnt need to write with good words or manner.

You remind me of a famous quote by Voltaire, “Common sense is not so common”. As long as you are willing to commit intellectual fraud in the name of your Gd, and are willing to take a dishonest stance in the face of irrefutable evidence and continue smearing an entire people, as long as you are willing to forfeit “integrity” and “rational”, so to will you be void of common sense. It is that simplet.

cute2904:

This is Old Testament. These verses are word of God. Thats why Jesus came down on New Testament and make everything complete by his law. Love one to another. Do you see Christian now running such law?

And now your attempt to justify the very same violence, and even worse violence, by your Gd. Common ridiculous arguments of Islamaphobes:

1. The violence in the OT is ok, because we do not follow the mitzvah.
   Reply: The mitzvah are rules given by revelation to the followers of the Hebrew Scriptures. The “commands” to those who follow the Hebrew Scriptures have nothing to do with the actions of Gd.

Cindy: Your parents are bad because your father commited adultery and your mother is a crack addict.
Mike: Your mother uses cocain and your father is involed with porn, are they bad?
Cindy: it doesn’t matter, I no longer follow their rules.

Like Cindy, you claim that because you do not follow the rules, then the violent actions of Jesus, your Gd, are “ok”. Voltaire once said, “I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: “O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.” And God granted it.”

1. But Jesus came down to undo the binding pacts of the Hebrew Scriptures.
   So does this mean that Jesus made a mistake and is making up for it? Your reply makes no sense

If a man commits murder in the 12th century, that murder is not any different 800 years later. Will you condemn the violent acts of your Gd as you do Islam?

cute2904:

It is you who are running such law in your sharia law. Because why? because your prophet had poor integrity when copied the bible and OT.

Why is it ok for Jesus to leave the sick to die by themselves in the desert, but Muslims cannot fight a battle without you exaggerating the incident? You “glossed” over the terrible incidents in your own OT condoned by Gd and now you are back to “arguing from violence”. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

cute2904:

Be more rational and civil about interfaith dialogue? If you want to have a more rational and civil interfaith dialogue, you first have to show how rational and civil you are towards humanity.

Nice red herring. So how can you be rational when you ignore and hide from the violent acts that include murder of innocent children, leaving the sick to die in the desert, and genocide. You are right, I will not be able to have a rational discourse with you as long as your position is breft of honesty. As long as you are willing to condem someone of something and yet excuse it for yourself, your words mustl be branded with suspect.
2904:

You are not being nasty. I dont think you are branding Christian with deragatory either. And yes like you do, I am also simply making my points. Peace to you too

But you are not willing to directly deal with the points I have given you. They are a delima for you, and so you would rather white wash, and then move on with the same baseless assertions.
As I have said, I think we have reached the point where you will either come to your senses or you will commit piouse fraud. In the second instance, I see no reason to continue this topic with you.
Peace to you.

 

[Abd_al-Haqq]

spiritblows:

Yes, violence is sometime advocated in the Koran, but not all Muslims are violent. But, there is an ongoing violent theme to Islam not found in other world religions.

**1. (Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them.”

1. (Koran 2:216) “Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not.”
2. (Koran 69:30-37) “It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise… Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful.”
3. (Koran 69:30-37) “(It will be said) Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in God the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but sinners eat.”
4. (Koran 22: 19-22) “These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning.” **

Those are just samplings of many horrific verses in the Koran. Pretty disturbing stuff, if you ask me. But most Muslims by and large don’t seem to be different than Christians.

Please pick one verse and I would be happy to discuss it. In your spare time, please refer to the Hebrew Scriptures.
Here is a single example, one of MANY that far out do the Quran:

Deut.

2:33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

3:5 All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many.
3:6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

 

[cute2904]

Abd al-Haqq:

You say you are not here to offer personal experiences? So far, that is all you have had to offer, and you continue to feel that all we need is to read your complaints as a way to truly understand religion.

Well ask your brothers that making our lives such a miserable. If you dont want to hear my personal experiences then stop terrorizing people.

When you are shown violent acts committed by your loving Gd, you ignore it, and then somehow assert that it is “ok” as long as it is in the OT. Your plank in your eye is certainly blinding.

If I were back to the OT. Then What for Jesus come to this world and say Love one to Another?. Dont you know that is the very basic of Christianity law? Or you confused about OT and NT times?

Thank you for you honest confession: Why should I show any intellectual integrity? That speaks volumes about you. Given that you have chosen to “ignore” evidence from the words of your own Gd that display actions worse than what you can pull out of the Quran.

To understand OT, Thats need intellectual integrity which you also do not have it. You even dont understand what Jesus’ teaching in NT. But to see violent done by exremists… it needs your common sense, just open your eyes, sharp your ears, and be human

If you cannot live up to honesty in your position, and withdraw any element of intellectual integrity, then indeed, your position is “intellectually bankrupt”.

Action speaks louder. Do not asking my integrity if only using common sense I could find it how bad your doctrines are.

You remind me of a famous quote by Voltaire, “Common sense is not so common”. As long as you are willing to commit intellectual fraud in the name of your Gd, and are willing to take a dishonest stance in the face of irrefutable evidence and continue smearing an entire people, as long as you are willing to forfeit “integrity” and “rational”, so to will you be void of common sense. It is that simplet.

Typical Muslim. when he is in the corner of no where, must be quoting words. Giving another reason, drag it from where we should discuss. You are here to explain if your religion is peace religion. if yes, why the above news happened? why bombing (around the globe) never stop?

And now your attempt to justify the very same violence, and even worse violence, by your Gd. Common ridiculous arguments of Islamaphobes:

1. The violence in the OT is ok, because we do not follow the mitzvah.
   Reply: The mitzvah are rules given by revelation to the followers of the Hebrew Scriptures. The “commands” to those who follow the Hebrew Scriptures have nothing to do with the actions of Gd.
2. But Jesus came down to undo the binding pacts of the Hebrew Scriptures.
   So does this mean that Jesus made a mistake and is making up for it? Your reply makes no sense.

Thats why you need your integrity to find out about violent on OT. The fact is No body No Christian at the moment attack mosque or other places only because they are practicing their religion. You good when quoting violent on the OT but you failed to see how violent your doctrines are. This is what your brothers are doing in other part of the world. Terrorizing and killing innocent people. I wouldnt stop saying this. You can call me ignorant or whatever you like. As long as PROOFS in right infront of me, no matter how hard you defend your doctrines, for me… meaningless.

 

[cute2904]

If a man commits murder in the 12th century, that murder is not any different 800 years later. Will you condemn the violent acts of your Gd as you do Islam?

We condemns those who commit murder moreover in the name of God. Because it is againts what Christ teaches about Love. Thats why God give us brain. To be better every single day, to truely understand whats Jesus’ true message.

Why is it ok for Jesus to leave the sick to die by themselves in the desert, but Muslims cannot fight a battle without you exaggerating the incident? You “glossed” over the terrible incidents in your own OT condoned by Gd and now you are back to “arguing from violence”. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

The fact is this terror and attack isnt done in the name of OT God. If you keep repeating the OT violent then I wont be tired repeating why Jesus came to this world in the NT.

Nice red herring. So how can you be rational when you ignore and hide from the violent acts that include murder of innocent children, leaving the sick to die in the desert, and genocide. You are right, I will not be able to have a rational discourse with you as long as your position is breft of honesty. As long as you are willing to condem someone of something and yet excuse it for yourself, your words mustl be branded with suspect.

OK. let me ask you, dont you also believe other prophets in the OT? Dont you have similar story about OT in your koran? Why not questioning yourself about it? Why must asking people about their violent book while the fact, it is you who do the violent following your own books.

But you are not willing to directly deal with the points I have given you. They are a delima for you, and so you would rather white wash, and then move on with the same baseless assertions.

They are not a dilemma. Your points that are pointless. Instead giving good reason with the topic, you keep repeating OT violent.

As I have said, I think we have reached the point where you will either come to your senses or you will commit piouse fraud. In the second instance, I see no reason to continue this topic with you.
Peace to you.

Well if cannot take the heat then get out of the kitchen. as simple as that. See you on the other forum then.

 

[MrS]

Seems to me we should be more concerned with God’s promise and His justice, and His wrath at the end of our lives…

for He has promised to take the wheat (those who accept His Son as Savior and listen/obey all that He said - especially John 6) and bring them into the Kingdom of Heaven and

He has promised to take the weeds (those who reject Jesus as Lord) and cast them into hell for eternity…

By the way,… neither place will “reward” with virgins. The true reward is the Beatific Vision.

 

[Abd_al-Haqq]

cute2904:

Well ask your brothers that making our lives such a miserable. If you dont want to hear my personal experiences then stop terrorizing people.

This is where we must part ways. I gave you evidences that spell out, in clear terms that even you can comprehend, actions prescribed the Gd you worship that are far worse than anything you have tried to use to smear Islam, and you repeated commit piouse fraud and intellectual cowardice all in the name of your Gd. When you are ready to directly respond to the points I gave you, let me know.
“I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: “O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.” And God granted it.”-Voltaire

 

[Abd_al-Haqq]

MrS:

Seems to me we should be more concerned with God’s promise and His justice, and His wrath at the end of our lives…

for He has promised to take the wheat (those who accept His Son as Savior and listen/obey all that He said - especially John 6) and bring them into the Kingdom of Heaven and

He has promised to take the weeds (those who reject Jesus as Lord) and cast them into hell for eternity…

By the way,… neither place will “reward” with virgins. The true reward is the Beatific Vision.

But Jesus did reward Hebrews with virgins in this world for their long days of battles with infidels.

 

[MrS]

Abd al-Haqq:

But Jesus did reward Hebrews with virgins in this world for their long days of battles with infidels.

bull

 

[Abd_al-Haqq]

cute2904:

We condemns those who commit murder moreover in the name of God.

Then condemn Jesus for ordering the brutal deaths of innocents.

The fact is this terror and attack isnt done in the name of OT God. If you keep repeating the OT violent then I wont be tired repeating why Jesus came to this world in the NT.

Gd is responsible for vioelnce in your OT. I showed you. You are living in denial.

OK. let me ask you, dont you also believe other prophets in the OT? Dont you have similar story about OT in your koran? Why not questioning yourself about it? Why must asking people about their violent book while the fact, it is you who do the violent following your own books.

For the fifth time, the acts commanded by Jesus in your OT far out weight anything you have brought out to condemn Islam.

They are not a dilemma. Your points that are pointless. Instead giving good reason with the topic, you keep repeating OT violent.
Well if cannot take the heat then get out of the kitchen. as simple as that. See you on the other forum then.

If they are not a dilemma, then why don;t you directly respond to the verses that spell out the violence ordered by your Gd?

It is not a matter of heat for my desire to end this with you, it is a matter of wisdom: As long as you fail to acknoweldge the points I make, or to return with at least a semi-coherent argument that actually makes a point, then my time will be foolishly wasted.
Peace and good luck.

 

[Abd_al-Haqq]

MrS:

bull

No virgins, not bulls. Bulls were actually given to the Hebrews as well, but that is not subject. Deut. 31:1-54 spells out how Jesus, the father, and the Spirit, reward the Hebrews with 32,000 virgins. Who needs virgins in the afterlife when so many are granted to you in this life.

 

[MVH]

**Abd al-Haqq: ** Please pick one verse and I would be happy to discuss it. In your spare time, please refer to the Hebrew Scriptures.

Deut.

2:33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

3:5 All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many.
3:6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

Al,
I’ll take a stab at answering your question on the passages you quote from Deuteronomy. It is obvious that the societies that existed in Palestine were very different from our civilization today. These societies were quite young, and they did not have the same value for life that we have today (through God’s guidance). God, in his wisdom, knew that he needed to use different methods of dealing with mankind on earth during the times chronicled in the pentatuch than the methods he later adopted during the time of Christ (and time since). Aside from the fact that these wars were for the land that God promised to the Israelites, we don’t know a whole lot about the entire event. We do know that these people worshiped other gods and could very well have rejected God outright. We don’t know for sure. Bottom line is we can’t compare the events back then to what happens today because people change (cultures, technology, values, theology, etc.).

Back to the topic at hand, I have not studied Islam in any depth. I have no reason to doubt that Islam, as a religion in and of itself, may be a religion of peace. And I agree with you, Al, that one should not judge a religion based on the actions of a few followers , or isolated anectdodal stories (I am not, in any way trivializing your experience, cute2904!). However, if there is a persistent build up of anectdodal evidence/empirical data that continues to build up regarding how the followers of a faith interpret Islam’s beliefs/tenets, then there is a significant problem with Islam today. There is no doubt that certain “schools” within Islam are quite dangerous to society today (Wahabism comes to mind). Again, I don’t doubt that Islam may be peaceful in theory, but it comes very short of this realized goal when we see so much evidence in Iraq, Phillipines, Indonesia, Iran and other places where many non-muslims are persecuted in the Islamic world.

Can you detail for us the reasons why Christians cannot openly worship their faith in much of the Islamic world? Do you believe that it is wrong for Christians to be denied the right to worship openly in “Islamic countries”?

 

[MVH]

**Abd al-Haqq: ** Please pick one verse and I would be happy to discuss it. In your spare time, please refer to the Hebrew Scriptures.

Deut.

2:33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

3:5 All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many.
3:6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

Al,
I’ll take a stab at answering your question on the passages you quote from Deuteronomy. It is obvious that the societies that existed in Palestine were very different from our civilization today. These societies were quite young, and they did not have the same value for life that we have today (through God’s guidance). God, in his wisdom, knew that he needed to use different methods of dealing with mankind on earth during the times chronicled in the pentatuch than the methods he later adopted during the time of Christ (and time since). Aside from the fact that these wars were for the land that God promised to the Israelites, we don’t know a whole lot about the entire event. We do know that these people worshiped other gods and could very well have rejected God outright. We don’t know for sure. Bottom line is we can’t compare the events back then to what happens today because people change (cultures, technology, values, theology, etc.).

Back to the topic at hand, I have not studied Islam in any depth. I have no reason to doubt that Islam, as a religion in and of itself, may be a religion of peace. And I agree with you, Al, that one should not judge a religion based on the actions of a few followers , or isolated anectdodal stories (I am not, in any way trivializing your experience, cute2904!). However, if there is a persistent build up of anectdodal evidence/empirical data that continues to build up regarding how the followers of a faith interpret Islam’s beliefs/tenets, then there is a significant problem with Islam today. There is no doubt that certain “schools” within Islam are quite dangerous to society today (Wahabism comes to mind). Again, I don’t doubt that Islam may be peaceful in theory, but it comes very short of this realized goal when we see so much evidence in Iraq, Phillipines, Indonesia, Iran and other places where many non-muslims are persecuted in the Islamic world.

Can you detail for us the reasons why Christians cannot openly worship their faith in much of the Islamic world? Do you believe that it is wrong for Christians to be denied the right to worship openly in “Islamic countries”?

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Shadowcry:

Too bad many Christians and Catholics judge Islam because of a few violent followers.

“and,” ?? “and,” ?? What’s with this “and” ???

Anna

 

[Abd_al-Haqq]

MVH:

Al,
I’ll take a stab at answering your question on the passages you quote from Deuteronomy. It is obvious that the societies that existed in Palestine were very different from our civilization today. These societies were quite young, and they did not have the same value for life that we have today (through God’s guidance). God, in his wisdom, knew that he needed to use different methods of dealing with mankind on earth during the times chronicled in the pentatuch than the methods he later adopted during the time of Christ (and time since). Aside from the fact that these wars were for the land that God promised to the Israelites, we don’t know a whole lot about the entire event. We do know that these people worshiped other gods and could very well have rejected God outright. We don’t know for sure. Bottom line is we can’t compare the events back then to what happens today because people change (cultures, technology, values, theology, etc.).

All though I do respect your explanation, I must explain that it was more for rhetorical purposes to drive home a point that some on this forum are willing to argue from special pleading when they use “violence” as a subject from which to create sweeping generalizations about Islam.

Your reply was well thought out and I hope to return a reply that equals the attention you placed in your response.

Gd, Jesus, the “trinity”, condoned acts of violence (which I have resolved and have no trouble with). If one argues that these acts are ok, only because they happened in another time, then

1. you are condoning violence, and so your probem with violence is that it must be used in certain circumstances, and not so much “violence” itself. With that said, one could not properly execute a generalization that stems from an act of violence until that situation from which that act occured is debated. If not, then hypocrisy is on order.
2. Arguing that “time” itself can change an act of violence from being acceptable would be dangerous, hence a murder 1000 years ago would be OK, as long as enough time passes by. So when we argue from time, I think what is actually being implied are conditions. With that said, conditions are not restricted to only past conditions, as conditions themselves may arise independent of time.

So, understand I am not trying to say that the bible is wrong when I bring up such verses that deal with violence, but I am saying that some are wrong for pointing their fingers and arguing from violence while there are lists of such events in their own books. In other words, I meant no disrespect.

Back to the topic at hand, I have not studied Islam in any depth. I have no reason to doubt that Islam, as a religion in and of itself, may be a religion of peace. And I agree with you, Al, that one should not judge a religion based on the actions of a few followers , or isolated anectdodal stories (I am not, in any way trivializing your experience, cute2904!). However, if there is a persistent build up of anectdodal evidence/empirical data that continues to build up regarding how the followers of a faith interpret Islam’s beliefs/tenets, then there is a significant problem with Islam today.

The problem with anecdotal evidence is that everyone can make claims, and in the end, you have an escalation of claims that try and out do the other, which is why such evidence is not used in a raitonal discussion. I will say that there are those who interpret the primary texts of Islam in light of their particular world views and politcal motives. Osama Bin Laden is not a scholar or even a serious student of any reputable scholar. The problems that have come out of some lands that are predominantly Muslim stem from a desperate way of life, illiteracy, uneducation (in both religion and the usual standard subjects). The problem is not as easy as many of the conservative neo-cons try and present it when they need to sell their latest book about the evils of Islam.

There is no doubt that certain “schools” within Islam are quite dangerous to society today (Wahabism comes to mind).

It can be argued that many of these schools stem from a group that was engendered from a corrupt regime propped up by the British in Egypt: The Islamic Brotherhood. Eventually the group, after an unsuccesful attempt to get rid of the brutal regime, and after learning lessons, rejected violence. The members who disagreed ended up forming groups like Al Qaida (Bin ladens second hand man was once a part of the Islamic Brotherhood), Islamic Jeehad, and others. You will also find that “wahabism” was propped up by the British as it backed a tribal family that was attached to this form of thinking, which is antithetical to many of the notions held in traditional Islam. The issue is much more complicated then the necon pundits lead on, and the west must take some of the blame, though not all.

 

[Abd_al-Haqq]

MVH:

Again, I don’t doubt that Islam may be peaceful in theory, but it comes very short of this realized goal when we see so much evidence in Iraq, Phillipines, Indonesia, Iran and other places where many non-muslims are persecuted in the Islamic world.

If Islam actually prescribed the destruction of other faiths, then I promise you that you would not find Christianity or Judaism as local faiths to the Middle East. SHow me one single ancient mosque that dates prior to the 10th century in Europe. I can show you many churches and synagogues that are older than Islam. The religous/political movements one finds in desperate areas of the world are not evidence of what a faith teaches. No more than Jesus ordering the deaths of children in Jericho is a defined Christian or Jewish principle.

MVH:

Can you detail for us the reasons why Christians cannot openly worship their faith in much of the Islamic world? Do you believe that it is wrong for Christians to be denied the right to worship openly in “Islamic countries”?

There is a large Jewish community in Yemen, they have been there since before Islam, and they refuse to leave because they believe Gd has not allowed them to leave exhile and return to their land (unlike Zionism which is a 20th century political movement that feels they can bring about the end of their exhile through the weapons and bombs of the US), there are Christians in Lebanon, and Egypt. Furthermore, these countries are not ruled by an “Islamic” system, and desperate men take their frustrations out on those whom they feel are the cause of their problems. I do not condone bad behavior, but it is not as straightforward as it is being made in this forum.
I believe that Christians should have the right to their own religion, as did the Prophet (saw), and I believe they should have their own courts, as did the Ottomans, the early Caliphs, and those of Andalus.

 

[Shadowcry]

“and,” ?? “and,” ?? What’s with this “and” ???

Anna

Just making a point in case catholics want to be differentiated from christians.