Islam is BAD!!!

[jen_fla]

Islam is a religion. This must absolutely be understood. It is faith, compounded by actions. A person who is a Muslim is one who submits to God, and that’s what Islam means–submission to God. ANYBODY can be a Muslim, regardless of their nationality, their language, or ethnic background, or location. Islam as a way of life includes guidelines for not just individuals, but also for societies. That doesn’t make it a government. The two concepts are incompatible. The leader of any Muslim country is only, and I stress only a political leader with the responsibility of protecting the people. He is not a spiritual leader–and never in the history of Sunni Islam (I’m not sure about Shi’as) has a military or political leader EVER been a spiritual leader as well. So no, Islam is not a theocracy, not in ANY sense of the word.

If you want to start a country and base it on the teachings of Islam, that doesn’t make it a theocracy.

uh, yes it does. that is exactly what a theocracy is.

If someone were to take Christian teachings only and use them as the foundation of their government, it would not make it a theocracy. Or would it?

yes it would. Christianity is pretty radical in that Jesus said to give to caesar what is his and to God what is God’s. Christianity calls for separation of Church and state. don’t buy the hype that america was founded on Christianity. again it was founded by deists. the majority of citizens were Christian, so yes much of Christianity was incorporated into our culture, but our laws are not based on Christianity otherwise the religious police would be arresting everyone that hasn’t been baptized!

Hmm… if it would, then yeah, I’d definitely like to be in a theocracy. I’d MUCH rather follow the Laws of God than the fickle fallible laws of men.

i *kind of * get what you are saying and your devotion to God is beautiful, but ultimately you have to ask yourself, are you pleasing God by NOT sinning only because you are living in fear and not because you voluntarily love Him and want to do his will? is it a virtue to do the right thing when your motivation is fear?

Aw thanks! You too!

you know, i can get testy when it comes to human rights and i have apologized in the past to you because i know some of the things i have typed might be offensive, but please understand, that my frustration stems from sincerely being worried about you. if we lived in the same town i would love to have you over for dinner, be friends, and talk about things. what we are discussing is so VERY important. unfortunately though, dinner at my home usually involves wine or beer so i’d be too scared to have you over. you might want to flog me! seriously, you have to have some friends that drink every now and then. can’t you love them enough to NOT flog them? and if any of my friends turned into an alcoholic then perhaps an intervention might be in order. beating someone for drinking is not going to solve anything. could you go beat the adorable senior citizens that pop out of the house to have a drink? what does their drinking have to do with their ability to love and be kind?

Do you really think adultery is okay?

NO i do not! i can forgive almost anything, but people that cheat make me sick! honestly i can almost understand the mindset of those women that ran over their husbands with a car when they found out they were cheating! it is a horrific thing to do to another human being. it completely messes with an individuals capacity to love. we are on the same page in that we both hate it so much. however, death is too extreme a punishment. and stoning as a form of death is just torture. i am not sure if you are married, but if you were and (of course i would never wish this to be) BUT if you somehow had a moment of weakness and cheated on your hubby, i would hope and pray that you would not be killed for it. i’d side with your husband and might have some choice words for you, but to kill you for it in a slow tortuous way? are you kidding me? given the chance, i’d do all that i could to help you escape your death sentence.

I saw a stoning on a TV show once (not reality but it terrified me still) and it’s not something I would EVER want to witness or see someone suffer. But that’s not really the point. We aren’t just talking about someone who committed a sin here, but someone who did it IN PUBLIC. In that way it is liable to corrupt the entire society. And I did not institute this punishment. In fact, God did. It’s even in the Bible, so if you reject Muhammad and the Qur’an, please look in the Bible where it’s plain as day, what the punishment is for adultery.

no that IS the point. and mohammed never said only in public (like that would justify torture). all you need are 4 witnesses. so if 4 witnesses peeked into a window and saw adultery going on, then wa-la… death. and how many times do i have to tell you that the harsh punishments of the OT do not apply to Christians? maybe you should go through a RCIA course to learn about Christianity the way it was meant to be understood. i am not going to bash the baptist church, but i can say that i have seen some christians really butcher what the Bible means. this would explain the churches that handle snakes… or the ones that say God hates F*** … or the ones that think only white people belong! all disgusting results of what happens when individuals try to have their own go at what the Bible means.

Do you really think that if that were the punishment, people would steal so frivolously?

no, i don’t, but that still doesn’t make it right. should they be punished? yes, but not by removing a miraculous body part that God created. would you want a hand cut off for the mother that came into your garden and stole all your fruits and vegetables because she and her family were hungry? come on sister amy, i know you are kinder than that. so is God.

What I find cruel is putting the individual over the society, and allowing an entire society to become corrupt because the people are too weak to enforce the punishments which in fact were mandated by God.

would you rather they go on stealing from you, and others?

the opposite that you seem to like is called communism. i too am disgusted by the fact that we have very liberal judges letting sex offenders out etc. should they be punished? yes. the punishment though is to keep them removed from society so they can not harm another individual. God will deal with their hearts as man can NOT know what is truly in their hearts. the problem with islam though is that it has decided mohammed’s teaching are the judge and jury of ALL mankind. you are forcing everyone else that does not buy the faulty ideology of islam to submit. that is a dictatorship.

First of all, the only way to say what God wants is with proof. I get very tense when I see people saying this or that about God without any proof.**** God is, of course, Forgiving, and Merciful, and Compassionate. And God is Just. And Kind and Gentle. Does the fact that there is punishment mean that God is not forgiving? No! It doesn’t! In fact, if you can show mercy when someone transgresses against you, then that is better for you. But not every human can do that. And frankly, retribution is justice, justice mandated by God even. Suppose someone steals your car, or your house, or your daughter? And wrecks the car? Destroys the house? Rapes your daughter? And you go to a judge, and imagine if the judge tells you, that you should forgive him! Or if the judge says, yeah, he was wrong, but I forgive him! Don’t you want justice? How is this fair?

you want proof? prove to me that mohammed (ONE man) got it right. you can not prove it. in fact the burden of proof is on him to PROVE that the Jews and Christians got it wrong. thousands of years of data lining up and here comes one man that could have had a mental illness and yet somehow you buy his stuff. why? what proved it for you?

i can see (esp from the european and american point of view) how the stricter observance of God is appealing. i do admire that in muslims. i think it is sublime the way muslims stop what they are doing 5 times a day to pray! and yes, women should dress more modestly. but that doesn’t mean Christianity is wrong. money seems to be the religion of the usa and europe so stop blaming all this on Christianity.

If you can forgive, that’s better for you–so says the Qur’an. But punishment serves as a deterrent and it also serves as a means of rehabilitation. Of course God forgives sins, and we have to repent. But some sins are so bad, especially those which are done in public and can corrupt the entire society, that they need to have a very strong and fierce punishment. That doesn’t mean God doesn’t forgive them. In fact, suffering that punishment might be a means of obtaining forgiveness. But when God has ordained it–which you cannot deny–who are we to reject it?

I’m not grateful that people feel free to engage in adultery. That women are raped without fear of punishment. That men can abuse their wives without being held to account. That people steal for pleasure and pride. that pedophiles can prey on children in groups–they can network. That pornography is freely available on the internet and elsewhere. I’m not grateful for that. Are you?

how can one be rehabilitated when they are dead?

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Islam isn’t “demonic” as someone above said…

Hi tomarin,

That may be true. Although the Qur’an specifically denies the crucifixion (see Qur’an 4:157), it doesn’t deny all of the Christian faith; Mary’s virgin birth of Jesus is mentioned in the Qur’an.

 

[RobHom]

Please do not think that the present day Muslims are perfect. Similarly I also do not believe there is any real followers of Jesus in the world today. Islam does not support terrorism. Some non muslim people had severely disturbed the peace of some muslims so they reacted in a good or bad way. That has nothing to do with Islam. I don’t blame them.

Oh, I am well aware that “present day Muslims” are not perfect. It is proven constantly… Whether or not you believe there are any real followers of Jesus Christ in the world today is immaterial. The rest of your comments are “nonsense”…not een worthy of comment.

** Please read the OT too. You will find some of that politics there too. Then pass a remark about Quran. It will only prove that your religion (christainity?) is false religion. It is not a religion at ll. It is a biography of a person called Jesus.**

 

[Harris]

I’ll make you a deal… When the Muslims worldwide openly denounce “terrorism” and hand over Bin Laden and the rest of the leaders of the “Islamic Terrorist” organizations and furnish the free world a list of the financiers of the terrorists and declare peace, and legal “freedom of religion” in all Muslim countries, I will believe “Love for all, and hatred for none”. I hate no-one, but that doesn’t mean I like everyone or respect them.

No way that this will ever happen! Even if it does, what will it prove?

Sure, we live in a time where many of the terrorists are Muslims. At other times, terrorists could be anybody else.

I have the impression that you seem to equate terrorists with Muslims (correst me if I’m wrong) and that Islam preaches terrorism. This is far from the truth, and therefore if you presume that every Muslim should denounce the present day Muslim terrorists to prove that Islam does not condone terrorism, you are way off the mark and just being simplistic. We don’t need that to prove anything.

Rightly or wrongly, even the so-called terrotists do have a cause. That does not mean I support their actions. Too long perhaps they feel that they are being victimized and at the bad end of western imperialism.

History has shown that people gave their lives for a cause. Even those who died at D-day gave their lives. By sending their soldiers out there to the beaches to face the waiting Nazi soldiers, the Allied generals knew that many of those soldiers would die for sure. The Japanese did that. Today the Tamils did that in Sri Lanka, etc.

 

[Harris]

"Harris:

You can, however, differentiate between Islam and a Muslim politician.

sure but since there is no authority in Islam, the differention becomes harder especially if the politician is a religious leader.

I’m glad you acknowledge that one can differentiate between the religion and the politician followers of the religion. Sure if the politician is a religous leader it would be more difficult to say whether it’s his own agenda or the religion’s. But let say this, what is wrong is wrong.

The Popes went to wars and blessed Christian conquests and committed many acts that contradicted Christianity. No one said they were wrong then. It is only now that the previous Pope apologized for the wrong doings committed in the name of Christianity.

 

[medallionsnijme]

quote sister amy: We aren’t just talking about someone who committed a sin here, but someone who did it IN PUBLIC. In that way it is liable to corrupt the entire society. And I did not institute this punishment. In fact, God did. It’s even in the Bible, so if you reject Muhammad and the Qur’an, please look in the Bible where it’s plain as day, what the punishment is for adultery.

quote sister amy:Islam as a way of life includes guidelines for not just individuals, but also for societies. That doesn’t make it a government. The two concepts are incompatible.

alright, so on one hand youre sayig islam is a way of life including individuals and societies. hate to let you in on the secret, but individuals make up societies and societies will make up a government. so if what you believe is the general way of life in a given place (called a country) then generally, your leader will be of the same religion as the people which make up the society which make up the government, and therefore the government will be influenced by the general consensus’ beliefs. not saying that the leader of the country has to be a religious leader, i dont see bush as the pope even though hes Christian (though he’s not Catholic and couldnt be the Pope besides).

i also think you need to brush up on your Bible studies.
a. whether or not someone committed a “public” sin or a “private” sin, it will still affect society because society is made up of people, and everything we do whether good or bad has either a positive effect or a negative effect.
on the contrary, is it not better to try to remedy the problem immediately in a loving way?
b. if you followed the Bible into the New Testament you would notice that when the woman caught in adultery was going to be stoned by those who accused her of it, Jesus did NOT stone her! instead (!) He said ’ let the first of you without sin cast the first stone"! that means that who are you to point fingers at someone elses faults when you have your own faults - *regardless of how big or small your faults are!**is it not more loving to help someone who has fallen into sin of any sort to help them stand up again and give it another go so that they can try to live an upstanding life?*Jesus also said that you try to take the plank out of your neighbors eye but you fail to see the plank in your own. not one person is any better than anyone else(except Jesus). without the grace of God given through Christ to show us frail human beings the way and uphold us in His righteousness, there is no way that we could even dream of reaching Christian perfection by our own means. its impossible because only God can do that.
AND why would we be GRATEFUL for sins against us? bad choice of words! willing to forgive, yes.

Harris, yes, terrorists can be anyone. heck, i believe we have many terrorists in our own country that promote a silent genocide of our nations future through abortion! these people also have a cause: to make a simple way out for a huge responsibility that these people arent accepting as their duty when they decided to have sex. its an excuse for pleasures of the flesh and is an abomination to what making love is. and yet there are tons of people who think its right for one bad excuse or another.

and yet how can the sacrifice our troops made on D day be even compared to the mass slaughter that was caused by the japanese kamikazis or the nazis? certainly you could argue that they were all doing what they thought was “right”, but where does morality fit in here? wouldnt you think that if they were following their consciences they would look at the basis of the regime they followed and realize that its wrong? that it was biased and unloving towards neighbors who were still human but simply different than they were? that they would think it was okay to treat them like animals? if anything, i would say that our troops fought for righteousness, even though in the midst of that they were forced to commit acts of violence against their enemies *out of a good cause for the common good of europe and, actually, the world!*AND they KNEW what sacrifice they would possibly be making by risking their lives for that cause. No greater love than to lay down your life for another. just saying

anyways, back on topic!

planten, i just dont even know what to say because it would just come right out and it might not be pretty. your ignorance of Christianity and definitive philosophy of what classifies “religion” as a religion is quite remarkable. if Christians follow Christ in an organized manner (i.e. following what He said to do, living like He lived, etc.), is it not a religion? just so, if you follow muhammad in an organized manner, is that not a religion? is not religion the joining of people who believe a certain way! just so, i could easily state the the qu’ran is just a simple biography of your “prophet”.
i was muslim once upon a time and i wouldnt go back if my life depended on it. its not a peaceful religion. if it were, they wouldnt beat their wives and think it ok, they wouldnt say its okay to sleep around with Christian women because theyre going to hell anyways for being unbelievers, they wouldnt find justification in mass genocide in africa because either the people are not in the right sect or they just arent muslim so were gonna kill you anyways. (and i do not find the crusades justifiable, just so you know! so dont even try to argue that point.). if islam was a religion of peace there would be forgiveness. stoning people to death isnt my idea of a loving relationship with anyone else that is human. do you really think that God is that horrible? any ramifications for our actions we bring on ourselves, nothing more and nothing less. God wants us to be happy and free and forgiven.
not to mention the 99 names of Allah, the MOST compassionate, the MOSt merciful etc etc etc. if thats true then wouldnt He want you to live a life as being merciful and compassionate at all times and in all circumstances because it is holy and right? its what God would want us to do? yes, God is just, but if you learned about the Divine Mercy, you would learn that God’s mercy triumphed over His justice when Christ died for us on the cross. imagine that for a moment! thats saying that GOD WANTS TO FORGIVE US OF EVERY BAD THING WEVE EVER DONE IF WE TURN TO HIM IN TRUST! like a child trusting a Father, no room for fear at all. wouldnt that be peaceful? wouldnt that give tranquility in this peaceful world if more people learned that truth? its quite amazing!

i agree with robhom!

 

[medallionsnijme]

sorry, harris, i thought i deleted my detoured speil from the message! apologies everyone!

 

[dzheremi]

No way that this will ever happen! Even if it does, what will it prove?

That Islam has reformed itself to the point where it is no longer killing in the name of God, as the other Abrahamic religions have.

Sure, we live in a time where many of the terrorists are Muslims. At other times, terrorists could be anybody else.

True enough, but excuse me if this “but other people did it!” line of reasoning is cold comfort for me, the Christians (and other non-Muslims) of the “Muslim” world, and basically everyone else. THIS TIME is the time we are living in, and THIS TIME is the time in which Muslims are committing terrorist acts in the name of their faith against non-Muslims and more moderate Muslims alike.

if you presume that every Muslim should denounce the present day Muslim terrorists to prove that Islam does not condone terrorism, you are way off the mark and just being simplistic. We don’t need that to prove anything.

I can relate to what you say here, Harris. I feel the same way when people bring up the child molestation scandals that have deeply damaged the reputation of the Church (especially since I converted AFTER those scandals came to light, so how am I supposed to bear responsibility for them?!). You are not, as an individual Muslim, responsible for the acts of all Muslims worldwide. However, you might reconsider your stance on this issue in light of your own conviction towards your religion. To continue the previous example, I have understood that in joining the RCC when I did, I would have to deal with people’s criticism of the Church, some of which is quite valid with regards to this issue. I bear it because I love my faith and the Church. I may not have to (or be able to) “prove” anything to anyone, but I don’t tell people that “we don’t have to do anything about (the problem)”, because I recognize that the problem is there and we SHOULD deal with it. We HAVE to, in a sense (because it is OUR problem, a problem with OUR people). You seem to have said something similar earlier in your post when you recognized that many terrorists are Muslim, so I am curious about the disconnect between what you know to be true and your outward stance that Muslims shouldn’t have to do anything about it. It would seem like if you recognize that present day Muslims have a problem with terrorism, you would want your community to denounce their activities (to try to prove that Islam does not condone terrorism, or for your own inner peace, or whatever). Perhaps I am misreading your replies. Apologies if that is the case. I am trying to be charitable, and I want to understand.

Rightly or wrongly, even the so-called terrotists do have a cause. That does not mean I support their actions. Too long perhaps they feel that they are being victimized and at the bad end of western imperialism.

So what? Many people feel this way. They don’t blow each other and innocent civilians up over it. No dice. Also, while I agree that Islam is not subject to political factions in the way that Sister Amy mentioned (meaning that Islam does not equate with a specific political position on the left/right spectrum - liberal, moderate, and conservative Muslims are all Muslims, I take it), posts like this don’t do much to shake me and others of the conviction that Islam has a political agenda that expresses itself through violence. Christianity has also been guilty of this, but as you may or may not know, the Church has condemned the philosophies that drive this activity, such as “Liberation Theology”.

History has shown that people gave their lives for a cause. Even those who died at D-day gave their lives. By sending their soldiers out there to the beaches to face the waiting Nazi soldiers, the Allied generals knew that many of those soldiers would die for sure. The Japanese did that. Today the Tamils did that in Sri Lanka, etc.

And your point is? We should treat the Muslim terrorists with the reverence that we give Allied soldiers? No way in hell. Both of my grandfathers were active in WWII (one as a medic, the other as a soldier). They fought in their own ways against fascism. There is no parallel of that among today’s Muslim terrorists, as many of them are fighting to establish incredibly repressive governments with religious trappings. We’re not talking about Algerian freedom fighters here. Just because some group has a cause doesn’t mean their cause is just.

 

[medallionsnijme]

Hi tomarin,

That may be true. Although the Qur’an specifically denies the crucifixion (see Qur’an 4:157), it doesn’t deny all of the Christian faith; Mary’s virgin birth of Jesus is mentioned in the Qur’an.

okay so maybe look at pictures of Padre Pio’s hands sometime or even any information about St. Francis of Assisi or any of the other saints that miraculously received the wounds of Christ. try denying it then. obviously theyre Christian and obviously they have received a great gift from God by being able to physically share in His sufferings. deny it all you want but when the Truth is in front of your eyes, how can you deny it? St. Thomas doubted that Christ was truly present after His Glorious Resurrection and He told St. Thomas to put his hand in His side. By His wounds we are healed. maybe its just that muhammad wasnt willing to die for his faith and his message of “peace”.
on top of that, i dont see muhammed or any of the “saints” of islam appearing to believers and making miracles happen that are infused with love and peace. none of those wonderful things that we have in Christianity would be happening if Christ hadn’t died or died in the way that He did. He chose to die the most horrible death of crucifixion to drink suffering to the dregs out of love for us to redeem us while we were still sinners. it had to be that way to show us His love. its a mystery that can never be totally fathomed, but we can enter into it.** there never was nor will be any suffering greater than Christ’s on the Cross. would you not die the worst death you could imagine for those you truly loved? would you want to show them that you are willing to suffer it all - no matter how horrible it is- just for them? would you want them to forget what you suffered for love of them? or would you want them to remember everything that made your sacrifice for them complete to show them your love? the Wounds of Christ are forever reminders to all on earth and all in Heaven of the price He was willing to pay for even just one soul! that is how precious you and everyone else are to Him. “I could never forget you. see, I have written your name upon My palm” (from Isaiah). our names are written in His wounds. how can you deny that?

 

[medallionsnijme]

the qu’ran also denies Christ’s divinity, which is the very heart of Christianity so your point is moot.

 

[hamba2han]

hamba2han, i dont understand why you think that Christians have no definitive guidelines and clarity as to what is good and what is evil. what could be your reasoning behind that thought? especially since the qu’ran has some questionable moral teachings in it…

Exodus 20:3–5
3 Do not have any other gods before me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

Since it is so explicitly stated in the Ten Commandments, do Christians accept that it is wrong and sinful to bow down to statues and graven images?

If your answer is ‘YES’, then why do Popes do it?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

And in the event that your answer is ‘NO’, then is not the Ten Commandments “definitive” enough for Catholics when it comes to the evil of bowing down to statues and graven images?

 

[KenEOTE]

Exodus 20:3–5
3 Do not have any other gods before me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

Since it is so explicitly stated in the Ten Commandments, do Christians accept that it is wrong and sinful to bow down to statues and graven images?

If your answer is ‘YES’, then why do Popes do it?

http://www.(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/assets/images/Pope-Mary-3.jpg

And in the event that your answer is ‘NO’, then is not the Ten Commandments “definitive” enough for Catholics when it comes to the evil of bowing down to statues and graven images?

Well Played.
I have to give you that. Photographic evidence and scripture reference.

 

[Angelos]

Well Played.
I have to give you that. Photographic evidence and scripture reference.

I do not agree with you. In order to say that hamba2han played well through photographic and scripture reference, you must acknowledge that we Christians:

1. Worship Mary
2. Worship statues.

None of the above is true. Muslims always mistakenly presume that we worship Mary as the second person of the Triune God (This is what their Koran teaches them). More, they cannot distinguish the notion of veneration from adoration whenever they are eager to blame Christians for practicing idolatry. Nevertheless, they deny Islam’s affiliation with paganism by claiming that they do not adore, but only venerate the Cube in Mecca.

 

[KenEOTE]

I do not agree with you. In order to say that hamba2han played well through photographic and scripture reference, you must acknowledge that we Christians:

1. Worship Mary
2. Worship statues.

None of the above is true. Muslims always mistakenly presume that we worship Mary as the second person of the Triune God (This is what their Koran teaches them). More, they cannot distinguish the notion of veneration from adoration whenever they are eager to blame Christians for practicing idolatry. Nevertheless, they deny Islam’s affiliation with paganism by claiming that they do not adore, but only venerate the Cube in Mecca.

That was sarcasm

I agree with you. If muslims truly felt that engraving images and that manner were not from God then why do they put such importance on earthly shrines. They have a one way street where they can venerate objects but if another faith venerates anything they pull out the idology card.
You do not have to prove this to me, but perhaps you need to prove it to a Mulim.
The biggest argument I have found is to talk to a former Muslim. I have talked to many.
For Instance here is one:
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,402483,00.html

 

[Irene72]

I do not agree with you. In order to say that hamba2han played well through photographic and scripture reference, you must acknowledge that we Christians:

1. Worship Mary
2. Worship statues.

None of the above is true. Muslims always mistakenly presume that we worship Mary as the second person of the Triune God (This is what their Koran teaches them). More, they cannot distinguish the notion of veneration from adoration whenever they are eager to blame Christians for practicing idolatry. Nevertheless, they deny Islam’s affiliation with paganism by claiming that they do not adore, but only venerate the Cube in Mecca.

Thats a lie!

 

[RobHom]

No way that this will ever happen! Even if it does, what will it prove?

You just proved my point. Thank you.

Sure, we live in a time where many of the terrorists are Muslims. At other times, terrorists could be anybody else.

“Obfuscation”. But we are not talking about “other times”. And yet the Muslims of the world are still funding the terrorists and cheering them on… I am quite sure that GOD is happy when Muslims parade and cheer in the streets after a terrorist attack that killed innocent people… I’m sure he is proud of Islam.

I have the impression that you seem to equate terrorists with Muslims (correst me if I’m wrong) and that Islam preaches terrorism. This is far from the truth, and therefore if you presume that every Muslim should denounce the present day Muslim terrorists to prove that Islam does not condone terrorism, you are way off the mark and just being simplistic. We don’t need that to prove anything.

I do. Since the 70’s there have been a number of terrorist incidents and they were committed by Muslims. If you knew anything about “true history”…you would know that. And you would also know that Islam is the so-called “justification” for their activities.

Their cause is wrong. What Muslims need to do is step out of the role of “Victim” and take responsibility for their failings and correct them. Western Imperialism…what a laugh!! Islam is “Imperialism” disguised as a religion. Pray tell…what was the goal of the Moors when they invaded Spain and then tried to invade France… “Shopping for wine? Wanted fresher produce?”
No, it was “imperialistic expansion”, period!

History has shown that people gave their lives for a cause. Even those who died at D-day gave their lives. By sending their soldiers out there to the beaches to face the waiting Nazi soldiers, the Allied generals knew that many of those soldiers would die for sure. The Japanese did that. Today the Tamils did that in Sri Lanka, etc.

But there is a significant difference in the “rightness of the causes” that those men died for. Your attempts to equate the sacrifice of men who gave their lives so that others could live freely without fear to those who seek to oppress others under the yoke of totalitarian “religion/government” is OBSCENE!!

 

[KenEOTE]

Thats a lie!

Its not a lie. Christians do not worship Mary. Within the Catholic faith they do not worship Mary they honor her. There is a difference. Yes some may hold her to a level that they should not, but that is very few.
Saying all Christians worship Mary would be like saying all Muslims are terrorists. Which we know is a lie.

 

[medallionsnijme]

we do NOT worship the Virgin Mary and the saints, and in islam they HONOR Her and venerate Her as the Mother of Christ. She is the One who was chosen from all time and through HER OWN FREE-WILL was obedient to the Father’s will in all thingsn throughout Her life and even now in Heaven. He made Her in such a way that She was “conceived without sin”. in order to bring Christ into the world, she had to be spotless, pure, and Immaculate. for anyone who wants to deny that, read up on the dogmas of the Church and also the Mystical City of God.
Therefore, we honor and venerate those who have gone before us because we have proof that they are in Heaven. the proof is through evidence of an exemplary virtuous life and exaple in following Christ and through miracles that happen through the given pre-Saint’s intercession (the whole Vatican’s process of cannonization). Next to that, its holy to pray for the dead, and i dont care what religion you are, its generally a process. what about the buddhists? they honor their ancestors? is not having a statue of a Saint like having a photograph of your loved on that has passed on that you pray for? the only difference here is that with a Saint, we are assured through proof that he/she is in Heaven.

so then whats your point in venerating the big cube in mecca? for arguments sake, couldnt you just be worshipping a huge rock? what makes that any better than what you are accusing Christians of? you venerate that cube like we venerate Mary and the Saints.**

 

[medallionsnijme]

clarification: muslims honor Her as the Mother of a great Prophet, and we Honor Her as the Mother of God. We honor Her as our Mother as well being that before He died on the Cross (that actually did exist and happen) He gave Her to us and us to Her when He spoke to Mary and St. John and said “Woman, behold Thy son. Son, behold thy Mother”. there is no greater honor due to another mere human being than to Mary for all of the sacrifices She made out of adherance to God’s Will - out of pure love of God and man - for the whole world. She has the honored position as Mother of Christ, Mother of all Christians, Mother of all the peoples of the world.

“Thou shalt not have any other gods before Me”…that means byebye krishna, vishnu, money, addictions, astrology, work…anything that we put above God, or in God’s place as the center of our lives, is considered an idol. we never put Mary above God. we foster great devotion to Her, as it should be, but God is always #1. She is our Mentor, Advocate, Mediatrix, and Co-Redeemer (for Her role in Christ’s Redemption and all of salvation’s history).

in regards to Mary, the Triune God was the center of Her life completely. She obeyed the Father’s will, She is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and She’s the Mother of Christ the Son. Even in praying the Rosary, though it is a Marian devotion, the center of all the mysteries is Christ. it is Christ-centered.

good job keneote!

 

[hamba2han]

The point that I was making is that quite a few Christians including the Pope bow down to statues and graven images… and in direct violation of the Ten Commandments, specifically Exodus 20:3–5.

Is this a lie?

Did I say anything at all about Mary??

Just to reiterate the point… and this time without Mary’s statue clouding the issue:



Again I ask → Is the Ten Commandments not “definitive” enough for Catholics when it comes to obeying the Lord’s command never to commit the evil of bowing to statues and graven images?