Islam is BAD!!!

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The point that I was making is that quite a few Christians including the Pope bow down to statues and graven images… and in direct violation of the Ten Commandments, specifically Exodus 20:3–5.

Is this a lie?
I won’t say you lied… I just don’t think you actually understand the scriptures you snipped out as your justification. Here is the entire chapter so you can read it, also there is a definition in the midst of it that explains it…along with “Biblical references” that support the Catholic viewpoint. Enjoy! drbo.org/chapter/02020.htm
Did I say anything at all about Mary??
Just to reiterate the point… and this time without Mary’s statue clouding the issue:
Again I ask → Is the Ten Commandments not “definitive” enough for Catholics when it comes to obeying the Lord’s command never to commit the evil of bowing to statues and graven images?
And you either completely misunderstand what that picture is showing, or you are pointedly making wrongful claims by using it and declaring it to be what it is not.

The Pope is conferring a “blessing” upon those people. Do not “Muslims” confer blessings, do not Mullahs confer blessings…do not the religious leaders of all denominations/religions do that?

Please don’t embarrass yourself in that manner…
 
The point that I was making is that quite a few Christians including the Pope bow down to statues and graven images… and in direct violation of the Ten Commandments, specifically Exodus 20:3–5.

Is this a lie?

Did I say anything at all about Mary??

Just to reiterate the point… and this time without Mary’s statue clouding the issue:
Again I ask → Is the Ten Commandments not “definitive” enough for Catholics when it comes to obeying the Lord’s command never to bow to statues and graven images?

i think that you are misguided. the First Commandment says “thou shalt not have any other gods before me”. and yes, exodus does say not to bow before statues and graven images. however, the Catholic Church is perfectly definitive in what we should and should not do. it makes it perfectly clear that we are not to bow down in worship** before things either that God created or that man has created - including saints and stuff like that. the statues that we honor we honor because of the person it represents, the life they had lead here on earth, the virtues this person had, etc. by honoring this person (whos “photograph” shall we say is the statue) we are ultimately honoring and giving glory, praise, and thanksgiving to God for this person whom He created and for all that He has done to, through, and for this person who was His instrument for helping other people here on earth. it is absolutely forbidden to worship anything other than God.

heres something i found that i hope clarifies:
Catholics Worship Saints, Icons and Statues

" If there is one area that a Catholic might be unwittingly guilty of is this. In fact ask a practicing Catholic about their beloved statues of saints, if they pray TO the statue of the saint. Most likely, you’ll get an answer saying, they pray TO the saint. However, if you look at the actual prayers, they’re requests for intercession between God and us, and definitely NOT worshiping the statue. That would be pagan idolatry.

So why do we keep statues and pictures of saints, and for that matter the

Virgin Mary? If you happen to visit any park or memorial, you’ll most likely find a statue or a depiction of a hero or a political figure. Those are there because we honor and cherish their memory. In the same token, then we honor saints and righteous men and women. There are several passages in the Bible that actually require us do just that, such as 1 Pet 2:17 :

“Give honor to all, love the community, fear God, honor the king.”

and Rom 12:10

“love one another with mutual affection; anticipate one another in showing honor.
Do not grow slack in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.
Rejoice in hope, endure in affliction, persevere in prayer.
Contribute to the needs of the holy ones, exercise hospitality.”

And in Heb 12:22-23:

“No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,
and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,”

“the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven” is an expression that may refer to the angels, or to the heroes of the Old Testament, or to the entire assembly of the new covenant. Statues and pictures are visual reminders of our great saints and heroes of the faith (Heb 11) whose life and faith God intended for us to imitate, as in Heb 13:7. 7 Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

God never intended for the saints in heaven to be completely separated from the body of Christ on earth. They are involved in intercession, just as the saints on earth are, and they are described as “so great a cloud of witnesses” (Heb 12:1).

“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us”

Christian life is to be inspired not only by the men and women of faith in the Old Testament but above all by Jesus, whose suffering at the cross gave His followers the courage to continue the struggle, if necessary even to the shedding of blood. "http://www.mycatholictradition.com/apologetics-saints-statues.html

*Bottom line is yes, the Catholic church is quite definitive in what it says about honoring statues and the difference between worshipping idols. *
 
… And you either completely misunderstand what that picture is showing, or you are pointedly making wrongful claims by using it and declaring it to be what it is not.

The Pope is conferring a “blessing” upon those people. Do not “Muslims” confer blessings, do not Mullahs confer blessings…do not the religious leaders of all denominations/religions do that?

Please don’t embarrass yourself in that manner…
You need to take a closer look at the picture.

That is NOT the Pope, rather it is a statue of the Pope that he is bowing down to.
 
i found this and i find it very interesting: check the whole thing out catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/comslam.htm

"Prophet: Moses

Teaching: Use of Sacred Image

Quote:Exodus 25:10- 20 God said to Moses " Make two Cherubim (angels) out of hammered gold ".

Contradicted by Mohammedan Creed
Use of any Sacred Images is Forbidden by the Mohammedan Creed.

We reverence holy images as means to elevating our mind to heavenly things, yet in response to Islamic charges of Idolatry we simply point out the Islamic contradiction, since they themselves kiss the stone Kabah when on pilgrimage to Mecca. Does this make them idolaters?

my point is settled.
 
The point that I was making is that quite a few Christians including the Pope bow down to statues and graven images… and in direct violation of the Ten Commandments, specifically Exodus 20:3–5.
From the earliest times, Christians have always made a distinction between lawful veneration of holy images and the worship of idols. In the 8th century a Byzantine emperor initiated a period of iconoclasm, or breaking of the idols, which was essentially a period of persecution and wanton destruction of holy images and relics. This was regarded as a travesty by the Pope of that time and he did whatever he could to oppose it; iconoclasm has since been declared a heretical doctrine.

The Reformation in Europe also caused a period of iconoclastic violence; we tend to view such episodes as a sad and perverse aberration from our Faith. The idea of people destroying images of Mary and the Saints in the name of God is perverse to us. You should know that Catholics never pray to statues; we pray to God or to the Saints who are in heaven as we kneel before an image of them, put there to remind us of them, the same way you might keep a photo of your son or daughter in your wallet.

Anyway, I’d like to get back to this idea that Christianity doesn’t explicitly define evil whereas Islam does. I’ve read the Qu’ran (a long time ago) and I don’t recall any more explicit definitions than one would find in the Bible.

I just read a book called “Evil: A Primer” by William Hart, and one interesting point he makes is that evil is actually a slippery concept that is hard to define. Is telling a white lie evil, for example? Some of these questions have never really been worked out, despite the best efforts of the West’s best theologians and philosophers. If what you’re saying is that Islam doesn’t have this problem (I’m skeptical because I suspect the ambiguity of evil is inherent to the phenomenon of evil) I’d be very interested to hear why you believe this.
 
The point that I was making is that quite a few Christians including the Pope bow down to statues and graven images… and in direct violation of the Ten Commandments, specifically Exodus 20:3–5.

Is this a lie?

Did I say anything at all about Mary??
The picture you deliberately chose said that.

Since we do not worship graven images, bowing down before them cannot be considered direct violation of the Ten Commandments. We never say that the statue is the God we believe and adore! Your conclusion is both hasty and faulty.
Just to reiterate the point… and this time without Mary’s statue clouding the issue:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/178/474488132_49aca2bf51.jpg?v=0

Again I ask → Is the Ten Commandments not “definitive” enough for Catholics when it comes to obeying the Lord’s command never to commit the evil of bowing to statues and graven images?
Let me reiterate the point… Bowing down before statues or icons or stones do not mean that they are our God. I hope you will get this point sooner or later. :rolleyes:
 
by the way, that last part that i italicized and underlines is straight from the information i got it from. there should have been another quotation mark but it didnt come up. oh well. now you know.

WOW! they did a great job on the Pope’s statue!! 😃 quite remarkable! i love Pope John Paul II! such a great Pope he was! 👍

either way, i have nothing more to say to you on this matter because you are not listening to what we all have already said. if you dont accept our answers thats your choice but we are telling you exactly what the difference is and youre obviously not getting it. hopefully someday youll understand:) minds are like parachutes they work best when open! :whistle:
 
The point I was making about Catholics bowing to statues has been muddled by all this talk about worshipping Mary…

The real question is → Do Catholics accept that bowing to statues and graven images is evil?.. ‘YES’ or ‘NO’?

And the larger question is → Who has the final authority to define what is ‘good’ or ‘evil’ in Christianity, the Bible or the Church?

Muslims do not have this problem of determining what is ‘good’ and what is ‘evil’.
 
The point I was making about Catholics bowing to statues has been muddled by all this talk about worshipping Mary…

The real question is → Do Catholics accept that bowing to statues and graven images is evil?.. ‘YES’ or ‘NO’?

And the larger question is → Who has the final authority to define what is ‘good’ or ‘evil’ in Christianity, the Bible or the Church?

Muslims do not have this problem of determining what is ‘good’ and what is ‘evil’.
So is murder wrong according to the Quran?
Is marriage to a child wrong according to the Quran?

Why do muslims bow to kings and Imans?
 
The point I was making about Catholics bowing to statues has been muddled by all this talk about worshipping Mary…

The real question is → Do Catholics accept that bowing to statues and graven images is evil?.. ‘YES’ or ‘NO’?

And the larger question is → Who has the final authority to define what is ‘good’ or ‘evil’ in Christianity, the Bible or the Church?

Muslims do not have this problem of determining what is ‘good’ and what is ‘evil’.
The question would have to be are they bowing in worship to the statue or are they bowing and worshiping God? You can not know the heart of the person bowing.
Just like when we see millions of Muslims bow at Mecca are they bowing to a rock or a cube as someone said or are they bowing and worshipping Allah. Which is it?
Christ is the final authority. He gave us the scriptures to teach us that we on our own can never be free from sin only through the sacrifice of Christ can we be cleansed.
To do Good is to follow Christs example and give him all honor and glory. To do evil is to put ourselves ahead of God.
 
The real question is → Do Catholics accept that bowing to statues and graven images is evil?.. ‘YES’ or ‘NO’?
I think I addressed this in my post # 87. Worshipping idols is wrong yes, but venerating holy images is not. Furthermore it has been a practice since the earliest days of Christianity.
And the larger question is → Who has the final authority to define what is ‘good’ or ‘evil’ in Christianity, the Bible or the Church?
First of all, nothing that the Church teaches contradicts the Bible, as your question implies. Because the Bible is a book with many passages that have no “plain” meaning and are open to interpretation, there is a clear need for a Church with teaching authority to explain the meaning of the Bible. Otherwise you have a million Bible readers with a million interpretations, which is basically what Protestantism is.
 
actually, your ignorance is quite astounding still! any previous points on anything in regards to statues, the Blessed Virgin, or any Saint or holy person has already been said.

as i stated before by quoting “We reverence holy images as means to elevating our mind to heavenly things, yet in response to Islamic charges of Idolatry we simply point out the Islamic contradiction, since they themselves kiss the stone Kabah when on pilgrimage to Mecca. Does this make them idolaters?”

so really, what can you inference from what has already been said? (its called reading between the lines, extremely useful skill). at this point, had you been paying attention, if you could regurgitate what has been said, you should know your answer. plain and simple.

your “larger question” is that the Church follows the teachings of the Bible and those teachings taught, “renewed”, fulfilled by Christ. The Church is also guided by the Holy Spirit of God which Christ and the Father send forth with His seven-fold gifts to help them discern along the way.

wow, muslims have no problem deciding whats good and what is evil! :rotfl: "U]Jesus and Muhammad Words, Actions, Teachings Contrasted
By William J. Federer …"One can examine the life of Jesus from the four Gospels.

One can examine the life of Muhammad from the Quran, Hadith and sources like the Sirat Rasul Allah.

…A review of these resources reveal:
  • Jesus was a religious leader.
  • Muhammad was a religious leader and a military leader.
  • Jesus never killed anyone.
  • Muhammad killed an estimated 3,000 people, including beheading 700 Jews of the Banu Qurayza tribe in Medina, A.D. 627:
“The Jews surrendered and the apostle confined them in Medina. Then the apostle went out to the market and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. … There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka’b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, ‘Will you never understand? Don’t you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!’ This went on until the apostle made an end of them.” (Sirat Rasul Allah)
  • Jesus never owned slaves.
  • Muhammad received a fifth of the prisoners taken in battle, including women. (Sura 8:41)
“Muhammad gave command and the heads of the two chiefs were severed from their bodies. The scene of torture and bloodshed was hardly ended when Muhammad sent Bilal to fetch the wife of Kinana. … He cast his mantle around her in token that she was to be his own.” (Conquest of Khaybar, A.D. 628, Sirat Rasul Allah)

“The apostle occupied the Jewish forts taking prisoners as he went. Among these were Safiya, the wife of Kinana. The apostle chose Safiya for himself. The other prisoners were distributed among the Muslims.” (Sirat Rasul Allah)

“Married women are forbidden unto you, except those whom your right hands possess (taken in battle.)” (Sura 4:24)
  • Jesus never married.
  • Muhammad had many wives.
“Anas said, ‘The prophet used to visit all his wives in an hour round, during the day and night and they were 11 in number.’ I asked Anas, ‘Had the prophet the strength for it?’ Anas replied, ‘We used to say that the prophet was given the strength of 30 (men).’” (Hadith Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 1, Bk. 5, No. 268)

“Muhammad said: ‘Woman can be married for religion, her fortune, or her beauty. So marry one for the religion.’” (Abu Issa al-Tarmidi, Sunan al-Tarmidi, Medina n.d., p.275, B: 4, H:1092)

“Prophet, we have made lawful to you the slave girls whom Allah has given you as booty.” (Sura 33:50)

When Muhammad’s behavior is reviewed, Muslim scholars point out that King David was also a prophet yet he killed people, owned slaves and had many wives.

The response is still that Jesus never killed anyone, never owned slaves and never married. David only wanted a small piece of land. There is no Bible command for Jews to subdue the world.
  • Jesus never forced followers to continue believing. After Jesus made a difficult saying, “many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him. Then Jesus said to the twelve, ‘Will ye also go away?’ Then Simon Peter answered him, ‘Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.’” (John 6:31-69)
  • Muhammad forced followers to continue believing, “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.” (Hadith al-Bukhari, Vol. 9, Bk. 84, No. 57)
  • Jesus taught God was our Father (Matthew 6:10).
  • Muhammad taught it was blasphemy to call Allah your father (Sura 5:18)
  • Jesus taught man was made in God’s image. (Matthew 22:20, ref. Gen. 1:26-27)
  • Muhammad taught Allah has no image. (Sura 42:11, Sura 112:4)
  • Jesus taught “forgive those who trespass against you.” (Matthew 6:10-15)
  • Muhammad taught to avenge trespasses against your honor, family or religion.
“Narrated Anas bin Malik: ‘On the day of the Conquest, the Prophet entered Mecca, wearing a helmet on his head. When he took it off, a man came and said, “Ibn Khatal is clinging to the curtain of the Ka’ba.” The Prophet said, “Kill him.”’” (Hadith Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 5, Book 59, No. 582)

“Ibn Khatal … had two slave girls who used to sing for him and for his companions songs full of abuse of the Prophet. The Prophet’s instructions specified that the two slave girls should also be killed. Another (to be kiilled) was al-Huwayrith Nuqaydh Wahb Qusayy, one of those who used to insult him in Mecca.” (Sirat Rasul Allah)
 
  • Jesus never tortured anyone.
  • Muhammad tortured the chief of a Jewish tribe.
“Kinana had been guardian of the tribe’s treasures, and he was brought before the apostle, who asked where they were hidden. But Kinana refused to disclose the place. The apostle of Allah handed him over to al-Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until he tells what he knows’, and al-Zubayr kindled a fire on his chest so that he almost expired; then the apostle gave him to Muhammad b. Maslama, who struck off his head.” (Sirat Rasul Allah)
  • Jesus did not retaliate when violence was committed against him, saying “Father, forgive them.” (Luke 23:34)
  • Muhammad retaliated when violence was committed against him, ordering the death of his enemies.
“Muhammad sent Abdullah to use diplomacy to gain an opportunity to assassinate Sofyan. Abdullah went forth, pretending to be on his Sofyan’s side, and when the moment was right, cut off his head. He carried it to Muhammad, who was in the Mosque in Medina. Muhammad was so gratified, he gave the assassin his staff, saying: ‘This shall be a token betwixt you and me on the day of resurrection. Verily, few on that day shall have anything to lean upon.’” (Sirat Rasul Allah).

“Ibn Sa’d Tabaqat reported: 'The apostle of Allah entered through Adhakhir into Mecca. He ordered six men and four women to be killed.” (Kitab al-Tabaqat, written by Ibn Sa’d (A.D. 745-845), Vol. 2, p. 168.)
  • Following Jesus was voluntary, from the inside out.
  • Following Muhammad could be coerced, from the outside in.
“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.” (Sura 9:29)
  • A martyr in Christian and Jewish thought is one who dies for his faith.
  • A martyr in Islamic thought is one who dies for his faith while killing infidels.
“Narrated Abu Huraira: ‘The Prophet said, “The person who participates in (holy battles) in Allah’s cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr).”’”(Hadith al-Bukhari Vol 1, Bk 2, #35)
  • Christianity teaches God wants a personal relationship with each individual.
  • Islam teaches individuals cannot have a personal relationship with Allah, as he is transcendent and unknowable.
  • Jesus’ religion is known for forgiveness and love.
  • Muhammad’s religion is known for obedience and fear.
*None of Jesus’ Apostles led armies. A village did not receive Jesus “and when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, ‘Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elias did?’ But he turned and rebuked them, and said, ‘Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.’” (Luke 9:52-56)
  • All of the caliphs who followed Muhammad led armies. (Caliphs Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Muawiyya, the Umayyads, the Abbasids, etc.)
  • In the first 300 years of Christianity, there were 10 major Roman persecutions, and Christians were fed to lions in the Coliseum. Never did Christians lead an armed resistance against those who attacked them.
  • In the first 300 years of Islam, Muslim armies conquered Arabia, Persia, the Holy Land, North Africa, Spain, Southern France, Central Africa, and invaded vast areas of Asia and Asia Minor.
Fighting is inconsistent with Jesus’ example but not Muhammad’s, as the Sirat Rasul Allah records Muhammad personally led 27 raids, including Battle of Badr, 624 AD; Battle of Uhud and expulsion of Banu Nadir, 625 AD; Attack on Banu Mustaliq, 626 AD; Battle of the Trench and killing Banu Qurayza, 627 AD; Battle of Khaybar, 628 AD; Battle of Mu’tah, 629 AD; Conquest of Mecca, Battle of Hunayn, Battle of Auras and Siege of al-Ta’if, where Mohammed used a catapult, 630 AD; Battle of Tabouk, Subjugation of Banu Thaqif (Yemen) and subjugation of Ghassanids (Arab Christians), 631 AD.

Jesus’ teaching on how to treat enemies:
  • Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, pray for them which despitefully use you (Matthew 5:44).
  • Resist not evil (Matthew 5:39).
  • If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to them the other (Matthew 5:39).
  • If someone takes your coat, give them your shirt (Matthew 5:40).
  • If someone make you carry something one mile, carry it two (Matthew 5:41).
  • Forgive and you shall be forgiven (Matthew 6:14).
  • Judge not, that ye be not judged (Matthew 7:1).
  • Blessed are the peacemakers (Matthew 5:9).
  • Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy (Matthew 5:7).
  • Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not kill, but I say who ever is angry with his brother is in danger of the judgment (Matthew 5:21-22).
  • Treat others the same way you want them to treat you (Luke 6:27-36).
  • Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick, whatever you do to the very least you have done unto me (Matthew 25:40).
Muhammad’s teaching on how to treat enemies:
  • Infidels are your sworn enemies (Sura 4:101).
  • Be ruthless to the infidels (Sura 48:29).
  • Make war on the infidels who dwell around you (Sura 9:123, 66:9).
  • Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day (Sura 9:29).
  • Strike off the heads of infidels in battle (Sura 47:4).
  • If someone stops believing in Allah, kill him (al-Bukhari 9:84:57).
  • Take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends (Sura 5:51, 60:13).
  • Never be a helper to the disbelievers (Sura 28:86).
  • Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (Sura 2:191).
  • No Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel (al-Bukhari 1:3:111).
  • The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land (Sura 5:33).
What motivates fundamental Muslims to violence?

Where Jesus was a religious leader, Muhammad was a religious leader and a military leader, thus the effort to separate the militant aspect of Islam from the religious aspect is an attempt to split Muhammad.

The closer one follows the example of Jesus, the more peaceful is one’s motivation.

The closer one follows example of Muhammad, the more militant is one’s motivation."

if i were you i would take a second look at islam dude! youve got your i’s crossed and your t’s dotted!
 
Hamba2han,

when you stop bowing toward a black stone and when you stop kissing it come back and discuss with us.
 
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