Islam under attack? Or under a debate?

[pro_universal]

Hey Montalban,

Where is the word “suicide” or “suicide bombing” in all of that material?

It seems that the cut and pastes grow longer with every attempt, but the main point always gets drowned out.

You have the same problem that rodrigo does. Posting from a radical website (one that clearly and blatantly misdefines “fitnah”) about reasons for waging war doesn’t prove that suicide is encouraged. It also doesn’t address the point of the study I cited, which is that suicide bombing is not at all linked to religion.

So in sum, neither of you can do either:

1. Address the evidence presented by Prof. Pape

or

1. Take the discussion to any level beyond “Islam is bad”, to the point that your attempts to make Islam look bad involve posting things that are not even remotely relevant to the issue. I posted evidence that suicide bombing is not linked to religion; you quoted a website claiming that Islam sanctions war to spread Islam. Does that address evidence of suicide bombing? No.

Does it present a mainstream view that most Muslims would agree is Islam’s teaching? No.

All it does is show what you want to believe about Islam.

That’s why I call this a hate campaign aimed at abusing Islam, and not one that’s about any substantive issue on which people might or might not disagree with Islam.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Islam gives the suicide bomber what? Where in the Islamic scriptures there is mention of suicide bomber?

I may not agree with Rodrigo’s way of expressing the intollerance of militant Islam. But he’s right on this.

Islam doesn’t specifically say ‘suicide bomber’. But it does provide many other examples of where weapons of war are considered favorable methods of conversion and/or resistance against their enemies. Furthermore, Islam does give extremely high praise to those who bear these weapons of war in battle and die for the cause of Islam when fighting against these people.

So while the Koran doesn’t specifically say ‘suicide bomber’ (no more than it says to use AK-47s, M16s, SR-47’s or AK 22 Sidefolders), it does provide plenty of theological justification within militant versions of Islam for one to strap a bomb to their back and charge their opponents-- knowing full well that they will die in the process while believing they will be rewarded in heaven by Allah because of their suicidal attacks.

I’m kind of in agreement with Rodrigo on this one. When one looks at the theological dynamics, Islam does effectively tell disaffected/disgruntled Muslims that it is okay (and it can be considered a religious duty) to solve their problem by killing innocent people in suicide bombings.

Please note, I’m not saying this as a point of comdemnation for Islam. But this is yet another reason why we need to pray for them.

 

[inJESUS]

oh great…Somalians now in thousands signed their “names” for Jihad for Allah and yes all saying Jihad fi sabil Allah…Allahu Akbar .

 

[inJESUS]

**
Promised Rewards for Shahids, Including 72 Virgins**
A Palestinian Authority religious leader encourages the striving to achieve Shahada by promising numerous rewards for those dying as shahids, including “72 dark eyed” - the 72 virgins

’If you don’t want to die as a shahid, you’re not a real Muslim’
A Palestinian Authority religious leader teaches the supreme importance of aspiring to die through Shahada. Those who don’t aspire Shahada will die as if they were non-Muslims.

**
Jihad Is the Only Way to Honor**
Jihad is the only way to honor, teaches a Palestinian Authority religious leader in this official televised sermon from March 22, 2001.

pmw.org.il/tv%20part10.html

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

How do you know he was not lying even in Surah 9:29?

Are you saying that the Koran has lies contained within it?

Causing people to doubt the theological positions of Islam by claiming that the authors were actually lying when making their theological statements isn’t a good way to defend Islam.

Casting doubt on the truthfulness of Surah 9:29 just opens the door for one to doubt whether anything within the Koran can actually be trusted in the first place.

 

[inJESUS]

I’ve been pondering how would one know which virgins are one’s own if they are all wearing burkas?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

But the very God of Christianity, as portrayed by most Christians, was ready to die by being totally defenseless and helpless.

That’s not suicide though.

Suicide is the deliberate act of terminating one’s own life.

Martyrdom is being willing to die at the hands of another person for what you believe.

Peace:

Why he hated so much his own life?

Jesus did not hate his own life. He was willing to die for what he believed at the hands of other people in order to glorify the Father’s name.

Peace:

Is it not a prime example of committing suicide?

No.

Unless you’re using a very different definition of suicide that most people do not use, Jesus being willing to die on the cross for what he believed is not a prime example of committing suicide as far as I can tell.

Peace:

The whole structure of todays Christianity stand upon a suicidal death of Christian God.

I would urge you to reconsider your words. This is actually a personal attack against the core of Catholicism and Christianity in general.

Peace:

What if he had fought his case by producing proof of his innocence and showing some miracles right in the Jewish/Roman court to prove his Kingship/Messiahship, then would you think Romans and Jews still would have killed your God?

He already provided hundreds of miracles before this time. And, according to Jewish law, when someone was cleansed for example, they had to report to the Rabbinical authorities so that these priests could proclaim them clean.

This is just one example of many ways in which the court which convicted Christ would have already known that he was innocent of the charges laid against him.

Asking Jesus to ‘perform stunts’ and ‘jump through hoops’ for the court at this point was pointless, not to mention insulting, because they already had ample eye-witness testimonies which verified that he was exactly who he claimed he was: The Son of God.

Peace:

What example Christian God set for his Jewish followers and disciples?

The example he set was that when the truth is being challenged, you have to be prepared to stand up for the truth-- even it means dying at the hands of those who are challenging the truth for the sake of the truth.

Peace:

Why he chose to die at the very young age of merely 33?

Well…he was around before he was incarnated within the Virgin for one thing. So he wasn’t just 33 from a spiritual perspective. Furthermore, his resurrected himself, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven, and still lives today. So, unless there is some kind of severe time-dilation going on in heaven, his physical body would be around 2,000 years old today even though his spirit would be eternal.

Peace:

Could he not have lived more at least up to the age of 60 or 70 and by performing more miracles save more Jewish people from dying and healing at least millions of sick Jewish people if not gentiles?

Through the Holy Spirit he continues to be present to all people today, especially in the Eucharist. And he did work miracles through his apostles too. The miracle of faith is a greater miracle than a miraculous healing in my opinion.

Peace:

How a Christian can follow such suicidal behaviour in order to be called a follower of Christ?

The Christian choose martyrdom-- not suicide.

And, for the record, they did not willingly go before people in order to be killed. They only willingly went before people in order to share the Gospel.

In this regard, they only stood up for what they believed, and were willing to die only when they were confronted by those who were seeking to kill them for proclaiming the truth.

There’s a big difference between martyrdom and suicide.

I would advise you to stop conflating the two very different actions.

 

[cestusdei]

When I visited the west bank they had posters of their Islamic “martyrs” who had blown up various pizza joints. When I asked if there had been any Christian suicide bombers they looked at me incredulously and said “of course not.” For a christian suicide is a sin and it would be an abberation. For Muslims it is jihad and they rejoice and of course hope for those 72 virgins.

 

[Peace]

I’ve been pondering how would one know which virgins are one’s own if they are all wearing burkas?

Very good question injesus, but not really. Because if you had stretched your question little bit more you could have asked:
How about walking all women absolutely naked like animals so that it is easy to know who is a virgin and who is not?

But the most appropriate question is to ask Catholics about the virginities of their NUNS because the way they dress (I am sure you must have known how NUNS dress) it is really hard to tell if they are indeed virgins.

And as a footnote, don’t forget to ask Jews and even Christians who believe that OT is God’s word about:

Numbers 31 (Douay Rheims Latin Vulgate Bible):
The Madianites are slain for having drawn the people of Israel into sin. The dividing of the booty.
1 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 2 Revenge first the children of Israel on the Madianites, and so thou shalt be gathered to thy people. 3 And Moses forthwith said: Arm of you men to fight, who may take the revenge of the Lord on the Madianites. 4 Let a thousand men be chosen out of every tribe of Israel to be sent to the war. 5 And they gave a thousand of every tribe, that is to say, twelve thousand men well appointed for battle.
6 And Moses sent them with Phinees the son of Eleazar the priest, and he delivered to him the holy vessels, and the trumpets to sound. 7 And when they had fought against the Madianites and had overcome them, they slew all the men. 8 And their kings Evi, and Recem, and Sur, and Hur, and Rebe, five princes of the nation: Balaam also the son of Beer they killed with the sword. 9 And they took their women, and their children captives, and all their cattle, and all their goods: and all their possessions they plundered: 10 And all their cities, and their villages, and castles, they burned.
11 And they carried away the booty, and all that they had taken both of men and of beasts. 12 And they brought them to Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and to all the multitude of the children of Israel. But the rest of the things for use they carried to the camp on the plains of Moab, beside the Jordan over against Jericho. 13 And Moses and Eleazar the priest and all the princes of the synagogue went forth to meet them without the camp. 14 And Moses being angry with the chief officers of the army, the tribunes, and the centurions that were come from the battle, 15 Said: Why have you saved the women?
16 Are not these they, that deceived the children of Israel by the counsel of Balaam, and made you transgress against the Lord by the sin of Phogor, for which also the people was punished? 17 Therefore kill all that are of the male sex, even of the children: and put to death the women, that have carnally known men. 18 But the girls, and all the women that are virgins save for yourselves:

As you can see, these army men were not Catholic priests nor the girls were Nuns, as there was no Catholicism that time, then how they were supposed to know which girls are virgins? And why they were asked to even kill the children of the male sex? Why such hatred towards males?

Would you like to see all Nuns walking around you absolutely naked or even topless or they should follow “Mother of God”?

As far Burka, it has nothing to do with Islam because it was in use before the advent of Islam’s Prophet. If you read very carefully atleast your or Jewish Bible, you will see even the prostitutes such as the daughter in law of Judah (the Holy father of Jewish race) used to cover her face and that covering confused Holy Judah and he thought she is a harlot and he goes into her. Yes, he did go into her, I am not kidding, according to your Bible:

Genesis 38 (New American Bible):
15 When Judah saw her (i.e. his own duaghter in law), he mistook her for a harlot, since she had covered her face.
16 So he went over to her at the roadside, and not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he said, “Come, let me have intercourse with you.” She replied, “What will you pay me for letting you have intercourse with me?”
17 He answered, “I will send you a kid from the flock.” “Very well,” she said, “provided you leave a pledge until you send it.”
18 4 Judah asked, “What pledge am I to give to you?” She answered, “Your seal and cord, and the staff you carry.” So he gave them to her and had intercourse with her, and she conceived by him.

Then what happened? She became pregnant of twins:

…

 

[Peace]

…

Then what happened? She became pregnant of twins:

27 When the time of her delivery came, she was found to have twins in her womb.
28 While she was giving birth, one infant put out his hand; and the midwife, taking a crimson thread, tied it on his hand, to note that this one came out first.
29 6 But as he withdrew his hand, his brother came out; and she said, “What a breach you have made for yourself!” So he was called Perez.
30 7 Afterward his brother came out; he was called Zerah. - Genesis 38 (New American Bible)
usccb.org/nab/bible/genesis/genesis38.htm

And these sons (Perez and Zera) of Judah are great great great…grand fathers of Jesus Christ:

Maththew’s Gosple ( New American Bible):
1 1 2 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2 Abraham became the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers.
3 Judah became the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar. Perez became the father of Hezron, Hezron the father of Ram…
usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew1.htm

 

[inJESUS]

Peace, Freedom, Uni, Jmm159, Nathann and whatever other nickname you took before being banned, i will not respond to you because you will be banned for the 10th time machallah.

 

[Peace]

That’s not suicide though.

Suicide is the deliberate act of terminating one’s own life…

Do you mean to say Jesus Christ did not know that Romans/Jews were about to kill him?

If he did know (because you Catholics think he was God) then he deliberately terminate his own life. Or you think he was actually acting of dying, when in fact he didn’t die at all?

If you think, he did not know that Romans/Jews will kill him that’s why he did not defend his case nor agitated about the false chrages then he was not God? God knows all/everything about His creations/creatures, no? Or your God have no idea about what Romans/Jews were going to do with his body?

 

[Peace]

Martyrdom is being willing to die at the hands of another person for what you believe.

Suicide bombers are willing to die at the/and with the hands of another people (such as the peaceful and civilised Christians/Jews of the West whose godly hands made bombs such as Cluster, Hydrogen, Daisy-cutter ecetra…) for what they believe.

So from your definition of ‘martyrdom’ the Suicide bombers are Martyrs.

Jesus did not hate his own life. He was willing to die for what he believed at the hands of other people in order to glorify the Father’s name.

Again you have no idea what you are talking about.

A suicide bomber doesn’t hate his own life (because in the time of peace you will not find a single suicide bomber to kill himself or other). A suicide bomber is ready to die for what he believed, at the hands of other people (such as the peaceful and civilised Christians/Jews of the West whose godly hands made beautiful peaceful bombs such as Cluster, Hydrogen, Daisy-cutter ecetra…) in order to golorify the dignity, honour, pride of remaining a Slave of God instead of becoming a slave to evil/greedy human beings. So when he a suicide bomber dies, he creates oppurtunity for others to live with dignity, honour and pride as Slaves of God.

When Chirst “died” what did he actually create/preach?

 

[Peace]

No.

Unless you’re using a very different definition of suicide that most people do not use, Jesus being willing to die on the cross for what he believed is not a prime example of committing suicide as far as I can tell.

Please look UP, I debunked your own definitions of suicide bomber and martyrdom/martyr.

Jesus being willing to die on the cross for what he believed is a prime example of committing suicide as it is very evident from the beliefs you attached with the personlaity of Jesus by saying/thinking he was God. Unless he was God who did not know the future events or atleast what will happen to his own body in the hands of Romans/Jews who will spit on him and kill him with a cursed death on cross.

Your interpretation is not necessarily what infact may have happened.

 

[Peace]

He already provided hundreds of miracles before this time. And, according to Jewish law, when someone was cleansed for example, they had to report to the Rabbinical authorities so that these priests could proclaim them clean.

What these miracles have to do with his death when he could not sace his own life from Romans/Jewish false accusers?

This is just one example of many ways in which the court which convicted Christ would have already known that he was innocent of the charges laid against him. .

Court knew that he was already innocent yet it allowed to kill him publically in order to defame and shake it’s own government? Do you mean to say that Jewish/Roman court shot in it’s own feet by putting the whole blame on Jewish accusers who demanded loudly to kill their own Messiah/King but let release (Jesus) Barabbas who was a famous criminal, while Jesus known as Christ was a healer, mircale performer and peaceful?

 

[Peace]

Asking Jesus to ‘perform stunts’ and ‘jump through hoops’ for the court at this point was pointless, not to mention insulting, because they already had ample eye-witness testimonies which verified that he was exactly who he claimed he was: The Son of God.

Why it is pointless and insulting ? Jesus could even have simply disappear from the court and save his own life from such horrible cursed suicide. Was he not able to perform an another miracle when he had done so many …and so many that according to so called “John” of Gospel according to John:

John 20 (New American Bible)
30 19 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of (his) disciples that are not written in this book.

John 21 (New American Bible)
25 There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

So what was the big deal for Jesus to perform an another miracle and save his life from false accusation and then start healing sicks and raising dead atleast of Children of Israel? Or perhaps he could have stretched his mission to non-Israelites to go to places like India, Japan or Australia or America and there too by performing more miracles wonders and signs convert Hindus, Budists, native Americans. But he did not. He left the job to his disciples who were basically fishermen and did not really understood what he was preaching. It had to be a Pharisee fro Tarsus who was working for Romans and persecuting followers of Jesus who with his amazing conflicting conversion story dominated all 12 disciples’ first hand understanding of their God who nailed the very law of Moses to the cursed cross which was supposed to revived/restored.

By the way the charge was not whether Jesus claimed he was Son of God but whether he was King of the Jews. And this charge was false and as such court find him NOT GUILTY. And how can such a person who had been running from one place to another and hiding could claim to be the King of the Jew? Did he have a palace/castle and lot of money and properties?

 

[Peace]

The example he (Jesus) set was that when the truth is being challenged, you have to be prepared to stand up for the truth-- even it means dying at the hands of those who are challenging the truth for the sake of the truth.

The example suicide bombers set is when the truth is being challenged by depriving their rights (such as in Palestine for more than half a century) you have to be prepared to stand up for the truth/rights even it means dying at the hands of those who are challenging the truth for the sake of “truth” by supplying most horrible bombs such as cluster, daisy cutter and carpet bombs.

By the way the “truth” (of those who are makers of horrible bombs ever produced in the entire world history such as cluster, daisy cutter and Hydrogen), is a relative thing.

Well…he was around before he was incarnated within the Virgin for one thing.

From where did you get the idea of your God incarnating?

So he wasn’t just 33 from a spiritual perspective.

From Spiritual perspective not just Jesus but no one among the human beings is 33 or 60 or 70 if they die at such ages. In order to reap their good/bad doings their existence continues after their death. No? Or criminals like Hitler will not be punished forever in Hell for the killing of 6 thousand Jews because he lives no more after his death?

 

[Peace]

Furthermore, his (Jesus’) resurrected himself, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven, and still lives today. So, unless there is some kind of severe time-dilation going on in heaven, his physical body would be around 2,000 years old today even though his spirit would be eternal.

Whether Jesus died is an OPEN QUESTION, in the first place. So what you are saying based on such an OPEN QUESTION is too early and senseless thus it makes no sense to build a castle upon it.

Through the Holy Spirit he continues to be present to all people today, especially in the Eucharist. And he did work miracles through his apostles too. The miracle of faith is a greater miracle than a miraculous healing in my opinion.

Through such spirit, good works of all Godly people keep continue among their true/committed followers and this kind of phenamenon is not unique in your the case of your Jesus. Just take a look how the Holy Spirit continue to be present in Luther and his followers and then all the numerous denominations came into existence after Luther’s excommunication from your Catholic Church.
That same Holy Spirit even allowed/encouraged a Nun (Katharina (Katherine) von Bora ) to marry such a historical famous theologian Martin Luther in 1525.

If you say marraige is not good for such theologians/priests or popes or nuns, then you are going too far because you are suggesting that these “holy” men should not have their own progeny who could also become “holy” like them under their parenthood. What if the parents of those “holy” men of yours too decided to remain unmarried then how and from where you would have been able to produced your Popes/Priests/Nuns?

Keep in mind I am not talking about corrupted priests here. Since just because there are many corrupted priests unfortunately happened to exist more in Catholics than any other Christian denomination, doesn’t mean you have a point to defend Popes and Priests’ act of remaining unmarried.

 

[Peace]

The Christian choose martyrdom-- not suicide.

I don’t see any difference between a suicide bomber and the very suicidal death of your God, let alone “martyrdom” of those who follow such suicidal God. So your statement “The Christian choose martyrdom-- not suicide” is sensless and shows how ignorant you are.

And, for the record, they did not willingly go before people in order to be killed. They only willingly went before people in order to share the Gospel.

Yes, they did share their Gosples during the Dark Ages. Crusaders were the excellent example of such sharing with love and peace. I wonder what they would ahve done if they had access to peaceful bombs such Hydrogen, cluster, daisy cutter and others weapons. But wait, they could not have because they were agaisnt Science and technology, right?

If you say they were not real Christians then are you saying the modern day Chrisitan rulers and those who elect them decomcratically with their votes are true Christians? Then, who invented Hydrogen, cluster, daisy cutter, carpet bombs and others weapons? Budhists? Native Indian Americans?

In this regard, they only stood up for what they believed, and were willing to die only when they were confronted by those who were seeking to kill them for proclaiming the truth.

Crusaders were willing to die and that’s why they engaged in war and terror activities?

Do you know when Jews were thrown out from Christian land where did they end up?

 

[Peace]

There’s a big difference between martyrdom and suicide.

Ofcourse there supposed to be a big difference between martyrdom and suicide but unfortunately there is no difference according to your set/understood definitions.

I would advise you to stop conflating the two very different actions.

And I advice you to stop demonising billions of peaceful Muslims and Islam. Or atleast listen to the President of Super Power - George Bush, if not your holy J.Paul II:

“Islam is Peace” Says President
Remarks by the President at Islamic Center of Washington, D.C.
Washington, D.C.

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you all very much for your hospitality. We’ve just had a – wide-ranging discussions on the matter at hand. Like the good folks standing with me, the American people were appalled and outraged at last Tuesday’s attacks. And so were Muslims all across the world. Both Americans and Muslim friends and citizens, tax-paying citizens, and Muslims in nations were just appalled and could not believe what we saw on our TV screens.

**These acts of violence against innocents violate the fundamental tenets of the Islamic faith. And it’s important for my fellow Americans to understand that. **

**The English translation is not as eloquent as the original Arabic, but let me quote from the Koran, itself: In the long run, evil in the extreme will be the end of those who do evil. For that they rejected the signs of Allah and held them up to ridicule. **

The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That’s not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don’t represent peace. They represent evil and war.

When we think of Islam we think of a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. Billions of people find comfort and solace and peace. And that’s made brothers and sisters out of every race – out of every race.

America counts millions of Muslims amongst our citizens, and Muslims make an incredibly valuable contribution to our country. Muslims are doctors, lawyers, law professors, members of the military, entrepreneurs, shopkeepers, moms and dads. And they need to be treated with respect. In our anger and emotion, our fellow Americans must treat each other with respect.

Women who cover their heads in this country must feel comfortable going outside their homes. Moms who wear cover must be not intimidated in America. That’s not the America I know. That’s not the America I value.

I’ve been told that some fear to leave; some don’t want to go shopping for their families; some don’t want to go about their ordinary daily routines because, by wearing cover, they’re afraid they’ll be intimidated. That should not and that will not stand in America.

Those who feel like they can intimidate our fellow citizens to take out their anger don’t represent the best of America, they represent the worst of humankind, and they should be ashamed of that kind of behavior.

This is a great country. It’s a great country because we share the same values of respect and dignity and human worth. And it is my honor to be meeting with leaders who feel just the same way I do. They’re outraged, they’re sad. They love America just as much as I do.

I want to thank you all for giving me a chance to come by. And may God bless us all.
whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010917-11.html