Islam

[ralphinal]

Good folks, this here is ALL you need to know about islam and why you should not even bother with “debating” with muslims. I have been reading through this forum and you are all wise to notice the trend: muslims are incapable of logical debate. They use out right lies, ad hominem attacks (attacking the individual) and red herring tactics (changing the subject or completely ignoring direct questions).

But, what planten has shown here is the true face and true threat of islam: there is NO love in islam. islam (yes I refuse to capitalize it just as I refuse to capitalize naziism or nazi) has 99 names for allah. Not one of those names is love. platen then goes on to emphasize that justice is what matters. Look at the history of islam. What is justice to islam and mulsims? Revenge.

I too used to feel sorry for muslims. No longer. After having lived among them for 4 years (in the ONLY secular islamic country which BTW is hated by other muslims BECAUSE it is secular) there is no love or sympathy in my heart for them because love is a totally alien concept for them. I do not blame islam for their ignorance. I blame them. God gave them brains to use but they refuse to use them. planten himself has screeched over and over that the kuran mentions the Bible. It does. In the Chapter called the Imrans their allah says he gave the Gospels to the Christians and they are still his word and valid. planten, as all other muslims do, then turns around and claims the Bible is changed. How any fully rational, thinking human being cannot see that blatant contradiction is beyond me. They, of course can see it, but being the hateful, loveless, vengeful creatures they are they would rather call you kafirs and accuse you of “abusing” their weak political ideology.

The ahadiths…well, on several islamic sites muslim scholars have used the bukhari hadith to “prove” that Ayesha was much older than nine when mohammed married her. Yet, bukhari hadith is one in particular that demonstrates the depravities of mohammed’s character so of course it is one that muslims cry is invalid. I have asked many muslims, in forums and in person, if it is invalid how on earth can they expect any logical, free-thinking person to accept the arguments that Ayesha was older than nine based on what they claim is an invalid hadith? The responses range from stone-cold silence, accusations against the islamic scholars, claims that my mother is a whore and of course the expected threats of rape and death.

They accuse us of cherry-picking only “bad” surahs and hadiths. Yet, they do the same only cherry-picking the “good” surahs and hadiths or flat out denying the bad ones exist. They are, in fact, the epitome of hypocrisy.

I could go on and on about the ugliness that is islam. I do know real muslims. Not “moderate” muslims living in the west and putting on a soft and gentle front for the unsuspecting dhimmis. I am not saying all muslims are inherently evil. I truly believe many of them are just suffering from some form of Stockholm Syndrome. They are born and raised into an ideology and many times cultures that are devoid of a loving God and human rights. Most of their cultures are misogynistic and lack basic concepts of free-will and human rights. Throw on top of that an ideology that is devoid of love, equality, human rights and free-will. You will never “guide them to the light.” That is in God’s hands.

The best you can do is try to show the ugly truth to those among you who are ignorant. Those who do not see the danger of islamic ideology. It is not worth your time or sanity to debate with the islamists themselves because as you have seen they are not capable of any kind of logical or sane debate. I envy you because you still hold the Holy Spirit in your heart and can feel compassion for muslims. I cannot. I can no longer turn the other cheek. I am willing to sacrifice my eternal soul so that my nieces and nephews can grow, thrive and love in a world filled with the LOVE OF GOD and not as oppressed and subjecated dhimmis under a worldwide caliphate ruled by sharia law.

I will remind you again of planten’s words because, rather than being an exception of islamic thinking, his is the rule. Remember, that of the 99 names for allah in the kuran NOT ONE is love. And yes, planten, I am scared. Scared of a “god” who knows no love but is full of revenge. That is YOUR truth, so yes, I am scared of YOUR truth.

Good people, your hearts are full of love, forgiveness and compassion because God IS love, forgiveness and compassion but here as you see, in the words of a true muslim, the “god” of islam is full of the exact opposite:

Excellent post for your first one.

Welcome to the forums!

 

[rikkk1958]

** No need to start the controversy. The words are plain and simple unless you want to give them some proverbial meaning. Jesus is talking and telling that he had not come to make peace in the land… You can understand the same as we do. So why are you asking any one. Please go ahead with your good comments about those verses.

The purpose was only to point out that context of the verses is very important. You should not use the verses of the Quran without context, as we should also not do the same about bible.**

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword.
For I have come to set a man ‘against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s enemies will be those of his household.’

These passages are very much simple my friend and it just to show that you do not really understand anything from the Book your prophet said to guide you for truth and correction.
Jesus is speaking in future tense that means a prophesy and warning what is going to come and that He is referring to the days when He will be the subject for quarrels among people because of different beliefs about Him. Of course it happened violently some thousand of years ago with real swords and until now there are some discourse regarding how to believe about Him. That is why I stick with my own belief about How He wants His church be established. Now I am sure you will disagree with your assertion that it is not so, however, my interpretation will be more correct because Jesus preaches peace and love and to interpret the passage differently means not in line with His teachings.

 

[trdchubi]

Good people, your hearts are full of love, forgiveness and compassion because God IS love, forgiveness and compassion but here as you see, in the words of a true muslim, the “god” of islam is full of the exact opposite:

Indeed we follow The God who is mighty to save and compassionate to love all people. Jesus said, “Greater love has no man than this, that he lay his life down for his friend.” According to Jesus, the greatest act of love is to sacrifice one’s life for another. This means that giving one’s life for another is a greater act of love than providing food for him, giving him a family, being nice to him, or honest, or helpful, or justice perhaps. Self-sacrifice, to the point of death, is the very greatest act of love.

How many christian martyrs in modern times committed their lives for same cause of Jesus Christ?

Has Allah performed the greatest act of love? By the fruits of his follower you shall see the doctrines of their faith.

 

[agnostic_in_ist]

Excellent post for your first one.

Welcome to the forums!

Thank you, Ralphinal.

I was not going to post anything because as I was reading I could see that none of you were being snowed by planten’s and muslim woman’s typical rhetoric. However, I had to highlight the slip-up that planten made. muslims don’t often show their true natures and good people “debate” with them in the mistaken belief that their kindness and compassion will guide muslim’s to the light. We would show them kindness and mercy but they will never show that to us although they pay a lot of lip-service to the contrary.

Many years ago I had a heated debate with a saudi theology student over the exact nature of the jizya. When he became frustrated that I would not accept all the standard islamic taqiyya explanations he finally screamed “yes, it is a harsh tax to remind you of islam’s superiority! islam is superior and unless you admit it you must pay for it!”

I am all for live and let live as long as no one is getting hurt. The sad and frightening truth is that line of thinking is out of the question in the minds and hearts of ALL muslims. Yes, I did say all muslims. I have lived in Turkey for the last 4 years. Turkey is the only secular islamic country. Many Turks are in fact fiercely secular and extremely moderate some bordering on agnosticism. However, when you pose to them the question of returning the Saint Sophia back to it original state, that of a church, the answer is a unanimous “NO!” When asked why the answer always boils down to “islam is the only valid religion and to allow people of other religions such a huge display of their faith is blasphemy.” islamic respect is a one-way street. They demand it, but make no mistake, what they return is far from what you or I or any other rational person would define as respect.

I do not consider islam a religion for more than the obvious reasons: it’s spread through violence not only in the past but even today, the weak and laughable scripture of the kuran (for those of you who have not read it I highly suggest you do. My opinion of it is that the bulk of it is the personal agenda of mohammed and his poorly retold interpretations of passages from the OT and NT. Anyone remember playing the game where one child reads a short story, memorizes it and whispers it to another child, that child whispers it to another and by the fourth or fifth child only a few details of the original story remain intact?), and, of course the character or lack thereof of mohammed. It has proven itself to be nothing more than a political ideology. In fact, from time to time muslims will admit that the kuran, in their opinion, should be the only law in the world. That’s all fine and dandy if they practice it on themselves only. The frightening reality is that this is not what they wish or what their kuran dictates. When they say world, they mean the whole world. That means not just them but you, me and our children.

I understand that many of us live in democracies or at least in countries where personal freedoms are allowed so we allow the islamists to exercise their freedoms as well. Great. Live and let live. Now, if you we heed the advice of the muslims themselves and read the kuran in “context it was written at the time it was written” we find that the peaceful surahs were written when mohammed and his hordes were the minority. As planten pointed out earlier in his mistaken misinterpretation of the words of Jesus to love our enemies. He believes that Jesus said that only as a strategy because he was outnumbered by his enemies because that is exactly what mohammed did. He was meek when he was weak but as he gathered more hordes the surahs became more and more violent and aggressive. This has been and always will be the strategy of islam.

This begs the question: If muslims in democratic, secular countries gain the upper-hand in numbers and political power do you truly believe they will remain peaceful and secular? Do you believe they will allow our current systems of laws to remain? Do you honestly believe they will allow churches and temples to remain standing? If you are unsure of the answers just talk to Coptics from Egypt. Ask these questions of Catholics in Lebanon. Query the Orthdox Christians of Turkey and Georgia.

These are hard questions and the answers are not happy and bring only more questions. What is the solution? How do we stop this from happening? How can we live in peace?

Short answer is: muslims cannot live in peace with us if they are the majority. Their interpretation of peace is in reality subjugation. History has proven this time and time again. As a woman I am terrified for myself and my nieces at the very real threat of the nightmare of living under sharia law.

Why is it that we do not have Hindu swamis forcing the muslim minority to follow Hindu practices? Why are there not hordes of Mad nuns kidnapping and forcing poor Buddhist children to convert and marry Catholics? Why do we not see raving packs of rabid Rabbis smacking pork chops out of the hands of the unsuspecting Taoist minorities?

And I am rambling. I am angry tonight. I visited the Saint Sophia today. A once beautiful church now covered with a mosque. The Turks like to claim that it is a testament to “islam’s respect for other religions.” I wonder how they would feel if Christians built a Church over the k’abbah in mecca? Would they see that as respect?

 

[jen_fla]

Thank you, Ralphinal.

I was not going to post anything because as I was reading I could see that none of you were being snowed by planten’s and muslim woman’s typical rhetoric. However, I had to highlight the slip-up that planten made. muslims don’t often show their true natures and good people “debate” with them in the mistaken belief that their kindness and compassion will guide muslim’s to the light. We would show them kindness and mercy but they will never show that to us although they pay a lot of lip-service to the contrary.

Many years ago I had a heated debate with a saudi theology student over the exact nature of the jizya. When he became frustrated that I would not accept all the standard islamic taqiyya explanations he finally screamed “yes, it is a harsh tax to remind you of islam’s superiority! islam is superior and unless you admit it you must pay for it!”

I am all for live and let live as long as no one is getting hurt. The sad and frightening truth is that line of thinking is out of the question in the minds and hearts of ALL muslims. Yes, I did say all muslims. I have lived in Turkey for the last 4 years. Turkey is the only secular islamic country. Many Turks are in fact fiercely secular and extremely moderate some bordering on agnosticism. However, when you pose to them the question of returning the Saint Sophia back to it original state, that of a church, the answer is a unanimous “NO!” When asked why the answer always boils down to “islam is the only valid religion and to allow people of other religions such a huge display of their faith is blasphemy.” islamic respect is a one-way street. They demand it, but make no mistake, what they return is far from what you or I or any other rational person would define as respect.

I do not consider islam a religion for more than the obvious reasons: it’s spread through violence not only in the past but even today, the weak and laughable scripture of the kuran (for those of you who have not read it I highly suggest you do. My opinion of it is that the bulk of it is the personal agenda of mohammed and his poorly retold interpretations of passages from the OT and NT. Anyone remember playing the game where one child reads a short story, memorizes it and whispers it to another child, that child whispers it to another and by the fourth or fifth child only a few details of the original story remain intact?), and, of course the character or lack thereof of mohammed. It has proven itself to be nothing more than a political ideology. In fact, from time to time muslims will admit that the kuran, in their opinion, should be the only law in the world. That’s all fine and dandy if they practice it on themselves only. The frightening reality is that this is not what they wish or what their kuran dictates. When they say world, they mean the whole world. That means not just them but you, me and our children.

I understand that many of us live in democracies or at least in countries where personal freedoms are allowed so we allow the islamists to exercise their freedoms as well. Great. Live and let live. Now, if you we heed the advice of the muslims themselves and read the kuran in “context it was written at the time it was written” we find that the peaceful surahs were written when mohammed and his hordes were the minority. As planten pointed out earlier in his mistaken misinterpretation of the words of Jesus to love our enemies. He believes that Jesus said that only as a strategy because he was outnumbered by his enemies because that is exactly what mohammed did. He was meek when he was weak but as he gathered more hordes the surahs became more and more violent and aggressive. This has been and always will be the strategy of islam.

This begs the question: If muslims in democratic, secular countries gain the upper-hand in numbers and political power do you truly believe they will remain peaceful and secular? Do you believe they will allow our current systems of laws to remain? Do you honestly believe they will allow churches and temples to remain standing? If you are unsure of the answers just talk to Coptics from Egypt. Ask these questions of Catholics in Lebanon. Query the Orthdox Christians of Turkey and Georgia.

These are hard questions and the answers are not happy and bring only more questions. What is the solution? How do we stop this from happening? How can we live in peace?

Short answer is: muslims cannot live in peace with us if they are the majority. Their interpretation of peace is in reality subjugation. History has proven this time and time again. As a woman I am terrified for myself and my nieces at the very real threat of the nightmare of living under sharia law.

Why is it that we do not have Hindu swamis forcing the muslim minority to follow Hindu practices? Why are there not hordes of Mad nuns kidnapping and forcing poor Buddhist children to convert and marry Catholics? Why do we not see raving packs of rabid Rabbis smacking pork chops out of the hands of the unsuspecting Taoist minorities?

And I am rambling. I am angry tonight. I visited the Saint Sophia today. A once beautiful church now covered with a mosque. The Turks like to claim that it is a testament to “islam’s respect for other religions.” I wonder how they would feel if Christians built a Church over the k’abbah in mecca? Would they see that as respect?

i am so grateful you have joined the conversations. sharing your unique experiences of living in turkey is quite a gift to the forum.

thank you, welcome and please stick around!

 

[R_not]

jen fla, you have commented on the post of Jguerra who listened on the radio. Probably was angel Gabriel was speaking to people.

1. Quran does not nullify the Torah and the bible NT.
2. Quran does not say a bad word about any prophet.
3. Just like Jesus came to direct the attention of the jews to the good side of the law, Muhammad also came to give some decision about the conflicts between Jews and christians.
4. Islam has told that all religios were originally true. But people later misbehaved with their scripture and spoiled the words of God. They added and replaced the original words by their own words.
5. The corruption was of two types: 1. The changing of the original text. 2. Altering the meaning of the original text. I am sure the church has good experience of what the Jews were doing when Jesus came. And what Jesus advised and taught.His whole mission was to correct the Jews.
6. If the Jews were not corrupted, there was no need for any one (Jesus) to come. So it happens in all nations So it happens in all nations.
7. Corruption of one kind or the other takes place. It is a mercy of Allah that the first type of corruption has been stopped in Islam. The words (text) of the revelation cannot be changed. It is well protected.
8. The original menaings of the Quran are also protected by some other means, not to be described here now.
9. So Islam or the Quran is perfectly correct in line with the previous revelations, Torah, teh Psalms and bible NT. It supports them all (with the required differences).

There is no need of any radio broadcast. The four principles described by Jguerra are not from God. They are just some good wishful thinking of a person.

Please prove #4 in your list and please do NOT use the koran and hadiths to prove your point. There should be an original Bible to show us what the uncorrupted Bible is to substantiate your premise. Until then, it is only an illiterate pagan who has asserted this in order to push his own ‘religion’.

And mohammed does not fit the description of a prophet according to the Bible. In fact we were WARNED of someone like mohammed.

And this contradicts the koran - Jesus teaches this in (Matthew 7:15-20):
15 'Beware of false prophets who come to you disguised as sheep but underneath are ravenous wolves.
16 You will be able to tell them by their fruits. Can people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17 In the same way, a sound tree produces good fruit but a rotten tree bad fruit.
18 A sound tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19 Any tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown on the fire.
20 I repeat, you will be able to tell them by their fruits.

10 reasons why mohammed is not a prophet:

1. Islam cannot be from God because the prophet of Islam, Muhammad, did not pass God’s first test for a prophet. Deuteronomy 18:21-22 tells us that God will authenticate those He sends as a prophet by having them perform signs. Muhammad gave no sign as required by God.
2. Islam cannot be from God because Muhammad’s teaching does not pass the second test God gave for a prophet. Deuteronomy 13:1-4 tells us that no prophet will bring a revelation that is in conflict with previous revelation. His revelation must agree with the previous revelation of God. Deuteronomy 13:1-4

(my comment: mohammed couldn’t even be consistent with his own rants and that is why even the koran has parts that were abrogated.)

Read the rest of the reasons

 

[Sam_777]

I was not going to post anything because as I was reading I could see that none of you were being snowed by planten’s and muslim woman’s typical rhetoric. However, I had to highlight the slip-up that planten made. muslims don’t often show their true natures and good people “debate” with them in the mistaken belief that their kindness and compassion will guide muslim’s to the light. We would show them kindness and mercy but they will never show that to us although they pay a lot of lip-service to the contrary.

Welcome to CAF agnostic_in_ist .

 

[R_not]

…

I was not going to post anything because as I was reading I could see that none of you were being snowed by planten’s and muslim woman’s typical rhetoric. And I am rambling. I am angry tonight. I visited the Saint Sophia today. A once beautiful church now covered with a mosque. The Turks like to claim that it is a testament to “islam’s respect for other religions.” I wonder how they would feel if Christians built a Church over the k’abbah in mecca? Would they see that as respect?

I don’t consider you rambling. MOST of us know what planten, sister amy and muslim women (and some others) are all about - da’wa.

I don’t like to say this because it goes against everything I have been taught - but we have to stay alert like we have never stayed alert before - and that includes being angry - because the muslims will NEVER stop their junk (da’wa, deception and other more violent means of spreading their ‘religion’). 9/11 woke me up and once I found out what islam was all about it meant that I can never ‘rest’ again. Because THEY never rest and they are in eternal war with us until we accept death, conversion or subjugation. And it is as simple as that to them.

I loved your post and insights. thank you very much and welcome and I hope to read many good posts from you.

The other sad part of all of this is that some want to talk ‘theology’ with muslims. WHAT THEOLOGY!?!?! Here is their theology - ‘mohammed is a prophet and allah is its god’, and we are to just blindly accept whatever hogwash they feed us.

When one digs into all of this we find a pagan religion that was relatively benign and peaceful that was made into a bloody, violent religion that broke most of the 10 commandments so mohammed had to redefine sin, and that the illiterate pagan, mohammed, was probably mentally ill too. It is all in their hadiths and koran to prove these things. (a book written by Ali Sina who is an Iranian ex-muslim fully researched this and backed it up by islamic texts - ‘Understanding muhammad, A Psychobiography’)

Don’t expect any church, temple, or whatever to be restored to its former religion. The toleration and respect they demand is not returned to anyone else.

Oh well, thanks again for your post.

 

[R_not]

In the past I have informed everyone that the so called peaceful times of mohammed in Mecca were not so peaceful. mohammed was in the habit of taunting, ridiculing, and being a big pain in the behind to the people of Mecca and nothing was done to him except that the elders went to mohammed’s uncle to ask him to ask mohammed to stop his nonsense.

Well, it seems that the so called battles of mohammed were more like raids and they were against unarmed citizens and usually against people carrying on their own business either in trade or movement of their tribe. And we also find out that mohammed was not even known for being a brave person but instead was well behind his followers who led the raids. Even when mohammed was young he was not in the ‘heat of battle’, but instead picking up the arrows that the enemy discharged and handing them to his uncle.

In a war known as the Sacrilegious War, that was fought in Mecca. From William Muir’s book ‘Life of muhammad’, Vol. II, Chapter 2, page 6 says, ‘Physcial courage, indeed, and martial daring, are virtues which did not distinguish the prophet at any period of his career.’

You will find many similarities between mohammed and what we see, and read about, even to this day - that muslims are very well known for their attacks against the unarmed civilian populations. The ‘big, brave’ jihadist killing women and children and during mohammed’s time taking the women and children who lived as his sex slaves and passing them around as booty. mohammed’s raids were mostly to get booty.

There were about 74 of these raids - basically sudden attacks, some were basically assisinations, and mohammed took part in about 27 of them. Tabaqat. Vol. 2, pp. 1-2

mohammed avoided battles and preferred the ambushes and raids. This allowed him to take his victims by surprise and massacre them when they were not prepared for a battle and in some cases unarmed. Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4321, 4322, and 4292

And what do we do when we hear that women and children are killed by muslim terrorists? Well, from the so called ‘moderates, or peaceful’ muslims they say it is prohibited to do such a thing. Well, it seems their own ‘prophet’ had no problem in killing innocents or taking them as slaves. In fact, when he was asked about this, he just said ‘they are from among them’. Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4321, 4322, and 4323

Then there is always this excuse - they were conspiring against islam - that muslims use to explain away the reason why mohammed attacked these peoples. How often have we heard that as a reason why muslims attack to this very day!? The truth of the matter is that the different tribes tried what many to this very day try to do - appeasement. They signed peace treaties. Not knowing that peace treaties with muslims are temporary and are to be broken when the muslims feel themselves rearmed, regrouped, or superior in number. All this started when mohamed broke the treaties he made when he became more powerful.

My next installments will go into how mohammed wanted some to be tortured so they would give up the location of some hidden booty. And then muslim charities (or more like the funding of jihads!), assasination, genocide and taqiyya - all started by mohammed himself that muslims to this day carry on.

 

[swariffin]

Can you please refer to your sources… and stop taking the quran out of context… if you want i can do the same with the bible.

An example of taking things out of context:

Matthew 10:32-39

34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.

Do i think Jesus came to spread War?

OF COURSE NOT, Muslims and Christians would be up in arms over that kind of a comment.

But again, i’m taking this quote out of context, I didn’t know who it was told to, when it was given, and for what reasons.

peace.

Dear Sunfromthewest,

To Planten, I think i did not have to quote the Quran or Hadiths for him. He knows it. If you join our discussions with him in many previous threads, Planten has been showned the verses. He admitted that such verses do exist any gave some “reasonable” answer.

We the Christian offcourse do not interpret the bible so literally like the muslims do. Otherwise, you can see funny thing yourself (such as your example). For instance, God killed all the eldest sons of the Egyptians, but later on, issued the command “Thou shall no kill…”. Literally that is illogical and makes God looks inconsistent. That is the problem of interpreting the holy book, and any holy book. You cannot just interpret them literally.

Unfortunately, that was what happened with Planten. He interprets the Quran literally and worse, interpret the bible also literally. I have talked with many muslims scholars, and very rarely they quote the Quran literally.

I believe that you have already knows, brother, that all holy books (forget the origin of the inspiration) were written long time ago, and relevant to that particular circumstances when such books were written and issued. Given changes of cultural practices of human today, one definitely cannot take such holy books literally. For example, although that Mohammad did take a 9 years old girl for his wife, i don’t believe that muslim male in this 21st century, in general, will ever take a 9 year girl for his wife.

So, what i and others are challenging Planten, is his logical interpretation of Quran. What i mean by logical, is something that can be explained and be reasoned. That is what God gave to human. It is not just a physical brain, it is also the consciousness, the analytical, and the reasoning capability. How can be it reasonable when the answer we receive is always “Muhammad said so… or Quran said so…” When we give reasons to our answer, we expect a challenge to our reason (go ahead and challenge our reasoning), not a repetition of the same questions over and over again.

 

[swariffin]

**

So all the three are correct. Torah is right, i.e. not to kill without reason. Quran says the same thing. The bible NT says something which was only for that time.**

Please tell us where Quran says the same thing and what does it means with “Kill the unbeliever, etc…”. Please remember, Planten, what I am waiting is your reasoning of why you believe Quran said this and that. That will show that you don’t have a blind faith to your belief.

 

[brownjt]

ok, there are 2 things i would like to address.
You are Catholic, and we are taught in the bible that the devil can appear as an angel. An ‘angel’ appeared to muhammad didnt it.
So, there can only be one truth, either Jesus is the truth, which he is, or muhammad is telling the truth he saw an angel, which i dont believe to be an angel of God.
So, since muhammad either ‘made up’ this religion, or did see an angel, what conclusion does that come too? Who was the angel, it sure wasnt Gabriel!

He’s no devil. He is doing what Joseph Smith did - take what is already written and tweak it. When the devil appears we will know it. Noooow - could the devil influenced mohammeed to do somethings like this. Absolute possibility. The devil does his work in disguise. In this case, it was taking advantage og both.

 

[agnostic_in_ist]

i am so grateful you have joined the conversations. sharing your unique experiences of living in turkey is quite a gift to the forum.

thank you, welcome and please stick around!

Thank you for the warm welcome. I will pop in from time to time.

Just a note, muslims have another myth or folk-tale about some desert rat, named ali, I think, that predicted, 1,000 year ago that a tall, black man will lead the west into Islam…

Anyone wonder why none of the mad mullahs in the middle east have declared a fatwa on obama for being an apostate?

God help us all when he gets elected.

 

[trdchubi]

** But Quran is specific. It says “There is no Compulsion in religion” Verse 2:255.**

If their is no compulsion in your religion, why does the quran says this:

47:4: Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah’s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

I think this verse is far from being passive on the part the muhammadans. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to find this verse as less than compulsive.

 

[swariffin]

Thank you for the warm welcome. I will pop in from time to time.

Just a note, muslims have another myth or folk-tale about some desert rat, named ali, I think, that predicted, 1,000 year ago that a tall, black man will lead the west into Islam…

Anyone wonder why none of the mad mullahs in the middle east have declared a fatwa on obama for being an apostate?

God help us all when he gets elected.

Wait a minute, you are not referring to one of US presidential candidate, are you? Better not. It is a violation of forum rules.

 

[SunfromtheWest]

Dear Sunfromthewest,

To Planten, I think i did not have to quote the Quran or Hadiths for him. He knows it. If you join our discussions with him in many previous threads, Planten has been showned the verses. He admitted that such verses do exist any gave some “reasonable” answer.

We the Christian offcourse do not interpret the bible so literally like the muslims do. Otherwise, you can see funny thing yourself (such as your example). For instance, God killed all the eldest sons of the Egyptians, but later on, issued the command “Thou shall no kill…”. Literally that is illogical and makes God looks inconsistent. That is the problem of interpreting the holy book, and any holy book. You cannot just interpret them literally.

Unfortunately, that was what happened with Planten. He interprets the Quran literally and worse, interpret the bible also literally. I have talked with many muslims scholars, and very rarely they quote the Quran literally.

I believe that you have already knows, brother, that all holy books (forget the origin of the inspiration) were written long time ago, and relevant to that particular circumstances when such books were written and issued. Given changes of cultural practices of human today, one definitely cannot take such holy books literally. For example, although that Mohammad did take a 9 years old girl for his wife, i don’t believe that muslim male in this 21st century, in general, will ever take a 9 year girl for his wife.

So, what i and others are challenging Planten, is his logical interpretation of Quran. What i mean by logical, is something that can be explained and be reasoned. That is what God gave to human. It is not just a physical brain, it is also the consciousness, the analytical, and the reasoning capability. How can be it reasonable when the answer we receive is always “Muhammad said so… or Quran said so…” When we give reasons to our answer, we expect a challenge to our reason (go ahead and challenge our reasoning), not a repetition of the same questions over and over again.

Good post, but not all things in the quran should be taken so literal, yes there are things that should be taken literal like the basic laws of islam. But im sure planten does not study tafseer of quran so his word may be worthless when it comes down to explaining verses.

 

[planten]

Please tell us where Quran says the same thing and what does it means with “Kill the unbeliever, etc…”. Please remember, Planten, what I am waiting is your reasoning of why you believe Quran said this and that. That will show that you don’t have a blind faith to your belief.

** swariffin, I would like to know where the Quran says “Kill the unbeliever”. It is not allowed to kill any non-believer. Every one is free to believe as they like. But every one should behave himself. Remember that it is allowed to fight the kafir who is hostile non-believer picking up fight against the religion with time and money and weapons.

Kafir is not a simple peaceful, innocent non-believer. He does not believe and does not allow others to believe. Kafir is the enemy of Islam and Jesus and Moses a.s. He does not let the believers to live at rest, in peace.

We will teach you the real meanings of the words of Quran slowly. But only if you agreed.**

 

[swariffin]

** swariffin, I would like to know where the Quran says “Kill the unbeliever”. It is not allowed to kill any non-believer. Every one is free to believe as they like. But every one should behave himself. Remember that it is allowed to fight the kafir who is hostile non-believer picking up fight against the religion with time and money and weapons.

Kafir is not a simple peaceful, innocent non-believer. He does not believe and does not allow others to believe. Kafir is the enemy of Islam and Jesus and Moses a.s. He does not let the believers to live at rest, in peace.

We will teach you the real meanings of the words of Quran slowly. But only if you agreed.**

Thank you, my dear friend. With the same love and compassion just like my Hajj grandpa are showing me until now, and until the time God calls him back to His bossom, I can understand you so easily. I admit that I am quite naughty, though. I hope my grandpa forgive me, and I do pray that God will reward his good deeds as He promised in the bible I believe. But still, I don’t believe that Jesus will ever fight the “Kafir”, but instead, Jesus will approach them, talked to them, teach them, feed them, heal them, raised them from death, and even give His life for them.

 

[planten]

**swariffin, it is well known that when the Muslims were being persecuted in Makkah, the prophet advised them to migrate to a christian state. The prophet said there is a noble christian king in Habshah. Musloims will be happy and safe there. So the Muslims migrated to Habshah.

Later the pagans of Makkah took many gifts and went to Habshah to reclaim the Muslim migrants. But the christian king of Habsha (Ethiopia) refused to give back the refugees.

During their stay in Habshah, the Migrants fought alongside the soldiers against the enemy of Habsha. They were happy there and good friends. The christian king checked up the faith of the Muslims and then let them stay in Habshah.

Later, a large group of christians from Najran came to Madinah and had discussions with the prophet about Jesus and God. They were non-believers. Why did not the prophet kill them?

He let them stay as long as they liked, even allowed them to pray in the big mosque without any restriction.**

 

[eva6206213]

i am also a catholic~