Islam

[ralphinal]

The Body of Christ which composes of christians worldwide is the Chruch of Christ. If you are inferring that the Catholic Church is the only Christian faith that is possesses the Truth - you miss a point that many priests, pastors will agree to the - the Truth is “possessed” by no faith - it is the Holy Spirit that sends the wisdom of God to the hearts of repentant bleieves everywhere - baptist, methodist, etc. I can read the catechism and believe in what is says - that does not mean the church “possesses” the the 'Truth". Food for thought - I know what you mean, but the Truth follows the Holy Spirt to the heart of the believer. My take on it.

I do not completely disagree. My point is that the Catholic CHurch contains the Fullness of the Truth as allowed on Earth. It does not mean that other Christian groups do not possess the Truth, some more than others. It means that as Catholics, we hold all that Christ taught to his followers.

If all beleivers are lead to all truth, there would not be denominations over doctrine.

 

[rikkk1958]

I do not completely disagree. My point is that the Catholic CHurch contains the Fullness of the Truth as allowed on Earth. It does not mean that other Christian groups do not possess the Truth, some more than others. It means that as Catholics, we hold all that Christ taught to his followers.

If all beleivers are lead to all truth, there would not be denominations over doctrine.

Good post Ralph. It seems non catholics have a hard time understanding our position. They have to understand that we hold the scriptures the sacred Words and we are not allowed to interpret them outside what our early Church Fathers have already told us how to believe them because first of all they are the ones who were the company of the writers during those times. Who could better interpret the scriptures but the writers themselves then pass it to his closest associates, then to everyone.

 

[ralphinal]

Good post Ralph. It seems non catholics have a hard time understanding our position. They have to understand that we hold the scriptures the sacred Words and we are not allowed to interpret them outside what our early Church Fathers have already told us how to believe them because first of all they are the ones who were the company of the writers during those times. Who could better interpret the scriptures but the writers themselves then pass it to his closest associates, then to everyone.

Some non-Catholic, non-Orthodox Christians seem to have a hisotrically false idea that there was Jesus, then there was the Bible, then Rome messed it all up by introducing things, then the Reformers discovered the Bible, locked away and hidden for 1500 years, and suddenly all was right with the world.

Anyway, thanks for liking my post. Now, where did those Muslims go?

 

[inJESUS]

well, if someone would believe in anything other than Quran and Hadith, then we should also believe that Muhammed was born 4 years after his father death, this information is found in the same books that tell the story about that Najashi false story, so if someone would believe Najashi story logically he should also believe Muhammed story, not taking what polish Islam and leave what show its reality.

except that there aren’t many people who can read your Arabic link on this forum these discussions are running between Arabs because the evidences are in Arabic…non-Arabs still lack the translations…but it’s a matter of time until someone translates.

 

[swariffin]

**swariffin, We admit that Muhammad never wrote with his hand. But he was The Leader, The Prophet, The Man in charge. He was leading the people. He could dictate and have the letter sent to the kings. He was mor ethan a king. Tell me, Do the kings write their letters themselves?

Perhaps, nexttime you will raise an objection, how could Muhammad go to Rome to deliver a letter to the christian King kaisar. And How he could go to Egypt to deliver a letter there to the King.
I suppose all your objections of this type are unfounded.**

At least the Kings are able to read what was written before being sent away.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

… Now, where did those Muslims go?

If u mean where are the Muslim participants , then ummmm only 4 or 5 of us are still here , some left the forum .

 

[Sam_777]

except that there aren’t many people who can read your Arabic link on this forum these discussions are running between Arabs because the evidences are in Arabic…non-Arabs still lack the translations…but it’s a matter of time until someone translates.

I agree, but those Arab Christians like you and the priest Zakaria are the ones making the difference and showing the truth for their Arab brothers and sisters, look how many Muslims the priest Zakaria have opened their eyes, so even if a few Arabic speakers can read that link, that is enough for me.

However, I also hope that link would be translated to English one day.

 

[ralphinal]

Salaam/peace

If u mean where are the Muslim participants , then ummmm only 4 or 5 of us are still here , some left the forum .

I did not mean anyone in particular, just trying ot get back on topic.

 

[planten]

I did not mean anyone in particular, just trying ot get back on topic.

**Ralph, what is the Topic? It is a vague and wide topic, unless described further. We believe Islam to be the last religion on earth. many a prophets had appeared on earth including Abraham, Jacob, Moses and Jesus (plus many thousands). They were guided by God. They receieved messages from God and passed on the teachings to their people. That is what Jesus did. That is what Muhammad did.

Islam is not only what Moses or Jesus taught. It is the very first and last religion for the people. The religion of Noah and Abraham was also Islam, that is submission to the worship of One God. That is Islam.**

 

[ralphinal]

**Ralph, what is the Topic? It is a vague and wide topic, unless described further. We believe Islam to be the last religion on earth. many a prophets had appeared on earth including Abraham, Jacob, Moses and Jesus (plus many thousands). They were guided by God. They receieved messages from God and passed on the teachings to their people. That is what Jesus did. That is what Muhammad did.

Islam is not only what Moses or Jesus taught. It is the very first and last religion for the people. The religion of Noah and Abraham was also Islam, that is submission to the worship of One God. That is Islam.**

If Islam is what Moses and JEsus taught, I have several questions.

Why did Muhammed get God’s name wrong? GOd told Moses that his name would forever and all time be “I AM,” which has been turned into the English “Yahweh.” That never appears in Muhammed’s writings.

Why did Muhammed get Jeses’s death and ressurection wrong?

Why was Jesus born of a virgin when no other Prophet was?

Why did God revert to a Master/Slave relationship when according to the Bible, we are in a Father/Child relationship with him?

Why did JEsus preach a message of Love and Peace and FOrgiveness and the Qur’an does not?

Why did Muhammed remove baptism and any of the Christian sacraments AND all of the Jeswish laws?

Why does ALlah swear oaths on things that are less than him, such as the stars and Muhammed, when in the Bible He can only swear upon himself because “There is nothing greater?”

I can go on.

 

[swariffin]

**They were guided by God. They receieved messages from God and passed on the teachings to their people. That is what Jesus did. That is what Muhammad did.
**

According to Muhammad himself, with no witness whatsoever.
planten;4416297:

Islam is not only what Moses or Jesus taught. It is the very first and last religion for the people. The religion of Noah and Abraham was also Islam, that is submission to the worship of One God. That is Islam.

If you claim to submission to worship of One God, why would you still believe in directing your prayer to a stone while also realizing that Allah is not there?

Ah yes, I know the answer “Because Allah said so”

How do I know that Allah said so?
Ah, I remember the answer. It is “Because Muhammad said so.” I am not supposed to ask God’s command.

How do I know that Muhammad is correct?
Ah, again, I also remember the answer. “Quran said so, and Quran is word of Allah”.

This circular logic is really the best and ultimate answer I know, and I am also being discouraged to ask God’s command too. Super…

 

[brownjt]

Good post Ralph. It seems non catholics have a hard time understanding our position. They have to understand that we hold the scriptures the sacred Words and we are not allowed to interpret them outside what our early Church Fathers have already told us how to believe them because first of all they are the ones who were the company of the writers during those times. Who could better interpret the scriptures but the writers themselves then pass it to his closest associates, then to everyone.

Your interpretations regarding the holy eucharist and transubstation are I think narrow - based on what you show me - they may be correct - but to prove it - you all keep repeating the same scriptures over and over again. Whether in true body or metaphysically present - partaking of the Holy Eucharist is a must - but it is not the only requirement to attain salvation and without it - the fact that only certain pastors can baptise - will not mean eternal ddamnation. Jesus baptises with the Holy Spirit ultimately. The narrow definition or impression (right or wrong) hat evangelical christians have is that catholics do not have a personal relationship with Christ - just one through the sacraments and their priest. I feel that all of this works towards the same end. The Protestant Jesus is the same. The New Testament is the same. Can I hear an “amen”?!

 

[rikkk1958]

Your interpretations regarding the holy eucharist and transubstation are I think narrow - based on what you show me - they may be correct - but to prove it - you all keep repeating the same scriptures over and over again. Whether in true body or metaphysically present - partaking of the Holy Eucharist is a must - but it is not the only requirement to attain salvation and without it - the fact that only certain pastors can baptise - will not mean eternal ddamnation. Jesus baptises with the Holy Spirit ultimately. The narrow definition or impression (right or wrong) hat evangelical christians have is that catholics do not have a personal relationship with Christ - just one through the sacraments and their priest. I feel that all of this works towards the same end. The Protestant Jesus is the same. The New Testament is the same. Can I hear an “amen”?!

I think you had been discussing this argument with raphinal. Anyways raphinal made a good point to you about the Church’s fullness of Truth. This means it does not forced you to believe on it but raphinal was trying to explain that, that is the Chruch’s position because of what was given not only by the Scriptures but the Traditions as well. Therefore if you insist on your own interpretation, keep it as your own just like the thousand other interpretations outside the Catholic Church.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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Salaam/peace

… How do I know that Allah said so?Ah, I remember the answer. It is “Because Muhammad said so.” I am not supposed to ask God’s command.
…

this can be applied to followers of all holy books . How Christians know Jesus (p) is God ? Because they think Bible says so ; how…put any religious question about any faith , ans will be because holy books say so etc . So , why put blame on Muslims only?

 

[swariffin]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

this can be applied to followers of all holy books . How Christians know Jesus (p) is God ? Because they think Bible says so ; how…put any religious question about any faith , ans will be because holy books say so etc . So , why put blame on Muslims only?

The thought of Jesus is God has developed beginning when Jesus taught the deciples. As promised by Jesus himself, the Holy Spirit came into each of them and enlighten them, so they understand what Jesus really meant. God gives human the mind to be used to the outmost. God does not dictate, God leads. When people follow the leadership of God, people will understand the secret of the kingdom of heaven.

Why I insisting on questioning? simple because you cannot answer me, or give a good reasoning showing that you use your mind as intended by God. Saying Allah said so for all the times, is just like a kid being questioned on something. Unable to give reasoning out of their mind, other than “somebody told me so…” kind of answer.

I am not putting blame of muslims. I do believe that before God there is no such thing of being muslim or not, being catholic or not, being mormon or not. What is matter to God is whether or not you (a) love God to the outmost and (b) love your fellow human as you love yourself and (c) you cannot have (a) without (b) and vice versa. I believe that if Muhammad met the criteria of Jesus (according to Jesus), he will make it into heaven. period. There is no such thing like Islamic heaven, Christian heaven or Buddhist heaven.

 

[TomaszA]

this can be applied to followers of all holy books . How Christians know Jesus (p) is God ? Because they think Bible says so ; how…put any religious question about any faith , ans will be because holy books say so etc . So , why put blame on Muslims only?

It’s not just that the Bible teaches it.

It’s also contained in sacred tradition and non-canonical writings of early Christians.

The Church has always worshiped Jesus as God.

 

[planten]

It’s not just that the Bible teaches it.

It’s also contained in sacred tradition and non-canonical writings of early Christians.

**In the case of Muhammad, you want that a witness should be there when the angel brings messages. But in the case of Jesus, you just believe the thing. The problem is who knew that Jesus birth was special type. Who was the witness.

Joseph the carpentar or Mary may have known about it but both of them never told any one. Joseph never told any one that he was only a name sake father of Jesus.**

The Church has always worshiped Jesus as God.

**You have told the truth. Church did all that even though Jesus never told any one to worship him. Why did the church do such a great thing all by itself? If Jesus was not being worshipped during his life time then how come the church started preaching the divinity of Jesus and his worship.??

We Muslims do not worship Muhammad or Ka’abah or angels or Jesus or Moses or stars or Moon. That is how it was in the time of Moses and Jesus. And that is how it should be all the time. Inventions in religion are not allowed. It is considered a sin to invent new ways.
**

 

[TomaszA]

Peace Planten,

In the case of Muhammad, you want that a witness should be there when the angel brings messages.

This is not something I ever said.

You have told the truth. Church did all that even though Jesus never told any one to worship him. Why did the church do such a great thing all by itself?

When I said the Church always worshiped Jesus as God I meant that Christians, since the beginning, going back to the Apostles, worshiped Jesus as God.

Obviously, if Christians always believed Jesus is God it’s something Jesus Himself must have revealed. It would be impossible for a group of people to introduce such a radical claim years down the line and have the majority accept it.

If Jesus was not being worshipped during his life time then how come the church started preaching the divinity of Jesus and his worship.??

Jesus was worshiped as an infant, after curing people, and after His resurrection. So there are examples of Him being worshiped in the Bible.

He also clearly revealed Himself to be God by His words and actions. For example He revealed He will judge mankind on the final judgment, a role Jews assigned to God. He altered Mosaic law by His own authority. The Jews tried to stone Him numerous times for revealing His divinity, and it ultimately led to His condemnation in front of the Sanhedrin.

We Muslims do not worship Muhammad or Ka’abah or angels or Jesus or Moses or stars or Moon. That is how it was in the time of Moses and Jesus. And that is how it should be all the time. Inventions in religion are not allowed. It is considered a sin to invent new ways.

The point is we are not inventing anything, we believe as has always been believed. The belief in Jesus’ Divinity goes back to His own time because He is the one that revealed it.

The real bidah is the claim that Jesus is an ordinary man!

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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Salaam/peace

…Jesus was worshiped as an infant,

pl. post the verse from Bible. Quran says the first sentence of Jesus (p) as infant was I am a servant of God.

The real bidah is the claim that Jesus is an ordinary man!

The real shirk is the claim that Jesus is God .

 

[inJESUS]

The real shirk is the claim that Jesus is God .

the Quran calls Jesus the Word and Spirit of God. Why is He the only one called as such and why was He born to no biological father? surely if your books wants to refute, the refutations must be clear and meaningfull.