Islam

[Muslima]

inJESUS:

can you elaborate please?

Islam asks people to beleive in one God, to obey his commandments, to thank him in good and bad, to ask his forgiveness, to work for the life hereafter, to carry the message of Good and right on earth against the message of evil that Satan and his followers carry.
(I beleive christianity asks for the same)

Islam asks people to have good morals, not to cheat, not to lie, to be always honest, good, clean, right, to be good with poor, to help others, to give away any hatred or envy.
(I beleive christianity asks for the same)

Islam asks people to seek learning, to work in developing life on earth, to make new inventions as long as these inventions help people.
(I beleive christianity asks for the same)

Islam asks people to try to lead the astrayed people to the way of God, to ask all people to seek salvation, to ask the sinners to repent and come to the pure world of Allah
(I beleive christianity asks for the same)

Islam asks people to beleive in Allah and all his Prophets (Adams, Noah, Hood, Lutes, Abraham, Ismael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, Zakery, Johan, Jesus)
I beleive christianity asks for the same

Islam added ligalization, if some one is a spoiller, corruptor, oppressor he should not be left to corrupt or spoil the world, he should get what he deserves, in order that justice prevails.

Peace be upon you,
Muslema

 

[inJESUS]

1. Muhammad ordered to kill non beleivers if they are only corruptors, or making riots.
   2:193: And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

“fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day nor acknowledge the religion of truth”. Where is the tumult or opression here? is not believing in allah a tumult?

 

[inJESUS]

Muslima:

Islam asks people to have good morals,

marrying more that one is not morals according to Jesus…having sex with slaves is not moral according to Jesus…eye for eye is not moral according to Jesus…temporary marriage is not morals according to Jesus…divorce is not morals according to Jesus…killing for allah is not moral for Jesus…killing apostates is not moral to Jesus…

not to cheat,

didnt you say it is allah who is the best schemer? how can you believe such an attribute to God?

not to lie,

but mohammad allowed lying in 3 situations : war, women and religion.

, to give away any hatred or envy.

how, if the quran is full of hatred to non-moslems? can a mother teach love if she is hateful?

Islam asks people to try to lead the astrayed people to the way of God, to ask all people to seek salvation, to ask the sinners to repent and come to the pure world of Allah

but if someone apostates? and what about :"Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from disbelief), their past would be forgiven; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning to them). And fight them on until there is no more persecution and the religion becomes Allah’s in its entirety…

i still did not see, in which way did mohammad confirm Jesus’ teachings

 

[Muslima]

inJESUS:

“fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day nor acknowledge the religion of truth”. Where is the tumult or opression here? is not believing in allah a tumult?

The Aya is clear, if non believers form danger or tumult, till they stop their tumult and opression.

Example: When Prophet Mohammad May God’s blessings and peace be upon him went to Mecca his homeland after eight years, since he left it obligatory while the pegans were conspiring to kill him. He returned to them after eight years with an army of 10000, All people of Mecca were unbeleivers at that time, if that was a sufficient reason for killing, he would have killed them all, instead he entered Mecca without sheding a drop of blood, or killing any single one, he headed to Kaaba and broke the idols and statues there and declared that anyone who enters Kaaba will be safe, anyone who enters the house of Abou sifian will be safe, that anyone who just shuts his house door and stays in it will be safe.
The aim of fighting is to make the word of Allah the upper word over that of the pegans, as they were threatening the Moslems every now and then, and banishing them from their country and forbidding them from pilgrimage to Kaaba, when this objective is acheived no one is killed.

Peace be upon you
Muslema

 

[Booklover]

pleaseanswer:

Dear Booklover,
Booklover, you need to be careful when raising any objection. You must first see the whole context or ask a learned Moslem scholar for explanation because the Moslem forum members of this site may or may not be knowledgeable enough of their own holy book just like not all Catholics here are learned enough to answer all questions.

Otherwise no Moslem will take you seriously. In their eyes you will be an ignorant or trouble maker for no valid reason.

Here are excerpts from the link InJesus gave us regarding Muslims calling Jews pigs and apes and so on:

In one of his sermons, Saudi sheikh Abd Al-Rahman Al-Sudayyis, imam and preacher at the Al-Haraam mosque – the most important mosque in Mecca – beseeched Allah to annihilate the Jews. He also urged the Arabs to give up peace initiatives with them because they are “the scum of the human race, the rats of the world, the violators of pacts and agreements, the murderers of the prophets, and the offspring of apes and pigs.”[2] “Read history,” called Al-Sudayyis in another sermon, “and you will understand that the Jews of yesterday are the evil fathers of the Jews of today, who are evil offspring, infidels, distorters of [others’] words, calf-worshippers, prophet-murderers, prophecy-deniers… the scum of the human race ‘whom Allah cursed and turned into apes and pigs…’ These are the Jews, an ongoing continuum of deceit, obstinacy, licentiousness, evil, and corruption…”[3]

Seeing Jews as “descendants of apes and pigs” is common also in Shi’ite Islam. Such statements appear, for instance, in a 1998 speech by **Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah **on the occasion of the Shi’ite 'Ashoura holiday. Nasrallah regretted that the holiday fell “on the 50th anniversary of the bitter and distressing historical catastrophe of the establishment of the state of the grandsons of apes and pigs – the Zionist Jews – on the land of Palestine and Jerusalem.” He closed his speech with these words: “… We reaffirm the slogan of the struggle against the Great Satan and call, like last year: ‘Death to America. To the murderers of the prophets, the grandsons of apes and pigs,’ we say: … ‘Death to Israel…’”[6] These statements are made not only by clerics and preachers. Following their lead, public opinion leaders in the Arab world also call the Jews “the descendants of apes and pigs.” The image has pervaded the public consciousness, even in child-rearing. In May 2002, Iqraa, the Saudi-Egyptian satellite television station, which according to its website[7] sets for itself the goals of “highlighting aspects of Arab Islamic culture that inspire respect,” “highlighting the true and tolerant picture of Islam and refuting the accusations directed against Islam,” and “planting a spirit of mutual understanding and dialogue among members of the nation and opening channels of cultural connection with the cultures of other nations,” interviewed a three-and-a-half-year-old “real Muslim girl” about Jews. On “The Muslim Woman Magazine” program, the girl was asked whether she liked Jews; she answered, “no.” When asked why she didn’t like them, she said that Jews were “apes and pigs.” “Who said this?” the moderator asked. The girl answered, “Our God.” “Where did He say this?” “In the Koran.” At the end of the interview, the pleased moderator said: “No [parents] could wish for Allah to give them a more believing girl than she… May Allah bless her, her father and mother. The next generation of children must be true Muslims. We must educate them now while they are children, so that they will be true Muslims.”[8]

Does this prove that I was not lying when I made the comment you objected to?

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

The Aya is clear, if non believers form danger or tumult, till they stop their tumult and opression.

why are you stressing on pagans? the verse is about Jews, Christians, pagans, atheist, ecc…that is, all non-moslems…which means it is a general commandmant without tumult, coz its impossible to have tumult from all these people at the same time…mohammad did not specify, so it is a general commandmant .

 

[Muslima]

inJESUS:

Muslima:

marrying more that one is not morals according to Jesus…having sex with slaves is not moral according to Jesus…eye for eye is not moral according to Jesus…temporary marriage is not morals according to Jesus…divorce is not morals according to Jesus…killing for allah is not moral for Jesus…killing apostates is not moral to Jesus…

didnt you say it is allah who is the best schemer? how can you believe such an attribute to God?

but mohammad allowed lying in 3 situations : war, women and religion.

how, if the quran is full of hatred to non-moslems? can a mother teach love if she is hateful?

but if someone apostates? and what about :"Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from disbelief), their past would be forgiven; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning to them). And fight them on until there is no more persecution and the religion becomes Allah’s in its entirety…

i still did not see, in which way did mohammad confirm Jesus’ teachings

Dear In Jesus,
This is merely your own understanding, which does not represent Islam, Morals of Islam are shown by Moslems for 1300 years. You are just trying to look with a very narrow eye. I will not answer all you said because it is wrong. I will just take one example to elaborate how you are doing your best to show Islam in a bad image that differ from its truth. We do not tell lies and our Religion consider Lying as a deadly sin and that it leads to all other deadly sin, Prophet allowed us to lie in three cases only, I beleive catholics lie at the same cases too.

1. When a man tells his wife how beautiful you are, or what a shining star or such words that may be not litterary true, so in this case he is not lying, he is permitted to do so. I beleive catholics say similar words in similar situations, Sure a catholic says to his wife, oh you are the moon, and of course she is not the moon? do you consider him lying then?

2.In war case: You can hide or even lie to suspecious persons to hide the information about your army to reach the ears of the enemy. If catholics are in war time and one of the men of the army of the enemy asked them about the plot of their war, would they simmply tell it, they may even to make him beleive untrue things about the status of their army.

1. Third case is not religion as you say: It is when you are making up between two disputing persons, one of them may say to you i would not speak to the other any more he said about me bad things, you may know that the other one truly said this, here you may just say: no, he did not say, you misunderstood and some of the like to make up between two disputing persons.

I see this is not considered lie, but because lis is strictly forbidden in Islam, prophet was sure to tell us about these three cases, or if Moslems would have cosidered these cases lie.

I see that as you are that knowlegable about Islam that you already know these things, and of course, you know that all the other suspects you are trying to make have answers, but you just try to shed light on the things in a negative way, you remind me of the zionist sites talking about Moslems they use exactly the same suspections you are using.

Peace be upon you
Moslema

 

[pro_universal]

the verse is about Jews, Christians, pagans, atheist, ecc…that is, all non-moslems…which means it is a general commandmant without tumult, coz its impossible to have tumult from all these people at the same time…mohammad did not specify, so it is a general commandmant .

As a Catholic, I am sympathetic to gross misrepresentations of my Church’s teaching and to religious intolerance, no matter which faith is the target. I am surprised to read on a Catholic board all the same propaganda against Muslims that was once levied against Jews. This is a bad sign for the future.

One of the things I have always liked about the Church above the later northern european interpretations of Christianity is its tolerance and willingness to engage other faiths using appeals to reason. InJesus, I have read quite a bit about the Muslim religion and everything I see leads me to conclude that Muslima is not misrepresenting anything. On the other hand, if I substituted the word “Jew” for the word “Muslim” in some of your posts here, I would have a replica of old anti-semitic propaganda.

Which follows more closely the model of Jesus, Muslima’s expression or yours?

 

[inJESUS]

Dear In Jesus,
This is merely your own understanding, which does not represent Islam, Morals of Islam are shown by Moslems for 1300 years. You are just trying to look with a very narrow eye.

with all my duerespect, this is NOT my understanding…am comparing Jesus’ teachings to mohammad’s teachings, which clearly are opposite…hence my question: how is mohammad confirming Jesus yet contradicting him?

I will not answer all you said because it is wrong.

eye foe eye is in quran, polygamy, divorce, killing for allah, having slaves, killing apostates are all in quran…you find their opposite in the Bible…am obvviously NOT wrong about the teachings.

I will just take one example to elaborate how you are doing your best to show Islam in a bad image that differ from its truth.

i’m telling the truth…if the quranic teachings look bad it is because they are bad…i invented nothing, please give some credit to my credibility here.

We do not tell lies and our Religion consider Lying as a deadly sin and that it leads to all other deadly sin, Prophet allowed us to lie in three cases only

, I beleive catholics lie at the same cases too. you are wrong…Jesus said : let your answers be yes or no…he did not allow lying, simply. Mohammad did…you might fins excuses, but it is called : Lying.

The first is borne out by Mahomet’s express sanction. Ammar ibn Yasir was sorely persecuted by the pagans of Mecca, and denied the faith for his deliverance. The Prophet approved of his conduct: - “If they do this again, then repeat the same recantation to them again.” Katib al Wackidi; p. 227 ½. Another tradition preserved in the family of Yasir, is as follows: - “The idolators seized Ammar, and they let him not go until he had abused Mahomet and spoken well of their gods. He then repaired to the Prophet, who asked of him what had happened.” - “Evil, oh Prophet of the Lord! I was not let go until I had abused thee, and spoken well of their gods.” - “But how,” replied Mahomet, “dost thou find thine own heart?” - “Secure and steadfast in the faith.” - “Then,” said Mahomet, “if they repeat the same, do thou too repeat the same.” Ibid. Mahomet also said that Ammar’s lie was better than Abu Jahl’s truth.

when Jesus told Peter that he will deny him, Jesus was not happy about it.

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, “You may say it.” … (Sahih al-Bukhari 5.369, cf. the article on Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf for further details)

1. When a man tells his wife how beautiful you are…

Sura 66 At-Tahrim (Banning, Prohibition)

“It is related that Mohammed was alone in company with Mary in Ayshah’s or Hafsah’s turn. Hafsah became aware of that and therefore scolded him about it. He declared he had taken an oath, but admitted his unlawful behaviour, therefore these verses descended.” ("Mizanu’l Haqq, page 330). (The “Mishkat” names Zainab instead of Hafsah - “Mishkat” II, pages 680-681).

i wont elaborate more, but it does not seem a “white” lie as you wanted to show…

I see that as you are that knowlegable about Islam that you already know these things, and of course, you know that all the other suspects you are trying to make have answers, but you just try to shed light on the things in a negative way, you remind me of the zionist sites talking about Moslems they use exactly the same suspections you are using.

why is it always the Jews’ mistake? my info is from muslim sources.

 

[inJESUS]

pro_universal:

As a Catholic, I am sympathetic to gross misrepresentations of my Church’s teaching and to religious intolerance, no matter which faith is the target. I am surprised to read on a Catholic board all the same propaganda against Muslims that was once levied against Jews. This is a bad sign for the future.

One of the things I have always liked about the Church above the later northern european interpretations of Christianity is its tolerance and willingness to engage other faiths using appeals to reason. InJesus, I have read quite a bit about the Muslim religion and everything I see leads me to conclude that Muslima is not misrepresenting anything. On the other hand, if I substituted the word “Jew” for the word “Muslim” in some of your posts here, I would have a replica of old anti-semitic propaganda.

Which follows more closely the model of Jesus, Muslima’s expression or yours?

thank you for your reply…what is the mistake exactly? we are talking doctrines and teachings here…is this a sin?

 

[pro_universal]

we are talking doctrines and teachings here…is this a sin?

The mistake is that every single one of the doctrines you accuse Muslims of teaching is taught on the internet, at Muslim-hating websites, and nowhere else.

There is not a single source written by Muslims, intended for Muslims, that construes those snippets of text the way you do, nor is there any work of Islamic jurisprudence that supports your claims about Islam. Unless you believe that there is a “secret” version of Muslim teaching, your accusations are flat out false.

Letting hatred blind your search for the truth is a sin, period.

 

[inJESUS]

pro_universal:

The mistake is that every single one of the doctrines you accuse Muslims of teaching is taught on the internet, at Muslim-hating websites, and nowhere else.

There is not a single source written by Muslims, intended for Muslims, that construes those snippets of text the way you do, nor is there any work of Islamic jurisprudence that supports your claims about Islam. Unless you believe that there is a “secret” version of Muslim teaching, your accusations are flat out false.

Letting hatred blind your search for the truth is a sin, period.

all i quoted is the quran and hadith…unless you prove them wrong , am afraid you dont have a point here…

Letting hatred blind my search of truth? which truth? can you tell me your faith statement please?

 

[pro_universal]

all i quoted is the quran and hadith…unless you prove them wrong , am afraid you dont have a point here…

Muslima already did that exhaustively. You are using out of context, misinterpreted, and misapplied quotes to justify a point that is not accepted by Muslims…just like Jack Chick does the same to our Church using snippets from encyclicals, etc. It should be telling that the only places where you find these quotes so construed is on actively anti-Muslim sites. Don’t you think it’s odd that none of the sources a Muslim would consult to learn her/his own religion have the same idea?

Letting hatred blind my search of truth? which truth? can you tell me your faith statement please?

All truth. You cannot serve spiritual truths by employing false historical and textual propaganda.

I prefer to let my behavior and values speak for my “faith statement.” If people cannot know my faith by my deeds, I need to step up the work.

 

[inJESUS]

Muslima already did that exhaustively. You are using out of context, misinterpreted, and misapplied quotes to justify a point that is not accepted by Muslims…just like Jack Chick does the same to our Church using snippets from encyclicals, etc. It should be telling that the only places where you find these quotes so construed is on actively anti-Muslim sites. Don’t you think it’s odd that none of the sources a Muslim would consult to learn her/his own religion have the same idea?

welcome to the forum first second, i know arabic…the quran is next beside me and i read hadith…here am discussing Jesus’ teachings vs mohammads teachings…i’m proving they are the opposite…what is your stand? share instead of generally accusing without giving proof

All truth. You cannot serve spiritual truths by employing false historical and textual propaganda.

are you Catholic as you said or not?

I prefer to let my behavior and values speak for my “faith statement.” If people cannot know my faith by my deeds, I need to step up the work

why is it hard to state your faith and then prove it?

 

[pro_universal]

second, i know arabic…the quran is next beside me and i read hadith…here am discussing Jesus’ teachings vs mohammads teachings…i’m proving they are the opposite…what is your stand?

My stand duplicates Muslimas on the text, since she actually was quite detailed above. That is an accurate representation of Muslim teaching. Regarding attacks on other faiths, I will refer you to a fatwa written by a Scholar of the Shafiyya school, one of the four orthodox Sunni traditions:

livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html

You will find no disagreement with this point in traditional Islamic thinking, as far as I have found through reading actual Muslim texts as opposed to reading “jihadwatch” or other junk sources. If you do in fact speak arabic, I’d like to know the best method to learn it, as I’m interested myself.

are you Catholic as you said or not?

If you saw what I said, you know the answer. It is now up to my deeds and not my claims to be this or that for you to base your judgments upon. Saying the Lord’s name three times does not by itself make you a Christian any more than saying “I’m a doctor” makes me a doctor.

I ask you this: Who is here advocating respect and dialogue with other people, and who is here doing nothing more than claiming “muslims hate us!”?

 

[Muslima]

pro_universal:

The mistake is that every single one of the doctrines you accuse Muslims of teaching is taught on the internet, at Muslim-hating websites, and nowhere else.

There is not a single source written by Muslims, intended for Muslims, that construes those snippets of text the way you do, nor is there any work of Islamic jurisprudence that supports your claims about Islam. Unless you believe that there is a “secret” version of Muslim teaching, your accusations are flat out false.

Letting hatred blind your search for the truth is a sin, period.

Thank you pro_universal for your enlightenment. I appreciate that you understand what i am trying to say.

In Jesus, I am not going to enter a debare with you about every Aya in the Quraan, I am capable also of bringing you hundreds of things from the bible and comments on them by christians the same way you do with Quraan, but I am not here to disdain the bible or christianity.

By the way, the two sources you used for interpretation of Surat Al Tahreem are not of the great interpretation books, and the story you told about prophet Muhamad is faked in some books, and the Aya has truly different interpretation.

Peace be upon you
Muslema

 

[inJESUS]

My stand duplicates Muslimas on the text, since she actually was quite detailed above. That is an accurate representation of Muslim teaching. Regarding attacks on other faiths, I will refer you to a fatwa written by a Scholar of the Shafiyya school, one of the four orthodox Sunni traditions:

livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html

You will find no disagreement with this point in traditional Islamic thinking, as far as I have found through reading actual Muslim texts as opposed to reading “jihadwatch” or other junk sources. If you do in fact speak arabic, I’d like to know the best method to learn it, as I’m interested myself. Bro, would you state Jesus teachings on polygamy, divorce, eye for eye, sex with slaves, lying, killing and then mohammads teachings? do i need to read islamic sites to know them when they are clear in quran?
As for learning arabic, you need to buy a book and an arab friend should help you…or you should go to some language schools coz its hard to learn arabic by urself.

If you saw what I said, you know the answer. It is now up to my deeds and not my claims to be this or that for you to base your judgments upon. Saying the Lord’s name three times does not by itself make you a Christian any more than saying “I’m a doctor” makes me a doctor.

i’ll break it down for you : do you believe Jesus is God incarnate?

I ask you this: Who is here advocating respect and dialogue with other people, and who is here doing nothing more than claiming “muslims hate us!”?

if you were careful enough, u’d have notice what i said to muslima…i told her : if you love and respect us, you are most welcome, but do not base it on quran, and i gave relevant verses in quran that call Christians blasphemers, perverted, unjust and that we will burn in hell…so either refute this, or just drop it please…am not lying…my proof is the quran.

i already said and i always say it : i love muslims, i do not love islam …and you know very well what the Bible teaches about it.

 

[pro_universal]

do i need to read islamic sites to know them when they are clear in quran?

Well, if you read the islamic sites, you would see that the only people who think this madness is “clear” in the Koran are people who hate muslims. Muslims don’t actually think the Koran means this, and it’s what Muslims think that defines Islam, not what someone one the internet can invent by taking a bunch of tiny pieces out of a vast network of literature.

How did you learn Arabic, if I might ask? I’d like to learn by heading to an Arabic speaking country, so I’d like to be aware of the differences in dialects among them.

i already said and i always say it : i love muslims, i do not love islam …and you know very well what the Bible teaches about it.

Well, if you love Muslims, you should make an effort to understand what they actually believe, as opposed to what people who don’t like Muslims claim they believe.

I know very well what the bible teaches about how the world is to know a Christian, as well. When you attack another faith and accuse it of being virtually satanic, think of this…if you had no religious identifiers, not even your name, would people know for sure you were Christian?

 

[inJESUS]

Muslima:

In Jesus, I am not going to enter a debare with you about every Aya in the Quraan,

that was not my intention neither…

I am capable also of bringing you hundreds of things from the bible and comments on them by christians the same way you do with Quraan, but I am not here to disdain the bible or christianity.

i urge you to find me something amoral or violent in the NT…all you will fins is forgiveness, turn the right cheek, love, do not judge, help, ecc…thats why am questioning in which way did mohammad confirm Jesus’ message when he contradicts him morally.

By the way, the two sources you used for interpretation of Surat Al Tahreem are not of the great interpretation books, and the story you told about prophet Muhamad is faked in some books, and the Aya has truly different interpretation.

i’ll take your word for it just not to look so picky…i’m after the morality of Jesus vs mohammad , which so far , stand unanswered.

 

[inJESUS]

Well, if you read the islamic sites, you would see that the only people who think this madness is “clear” in the Koran are people who hate muslims. Muslims don’t actually think the Koran means this, and it’s what Muslims think that defines Islam, not what someone one the internet can invent by taking a bunch of tiny pieces out of a vast network of literature.

it is getting tiring…bro, i have my own brain…why do you insist i look for info in anti-muslim sites? you did not answer :
Do muslims allow polygamy? what about Jesus?
Did mohammad allow eye for eye? and Jesus?
you know the rest…but i see that you as well are unwilling to respond to such clear questions.

How did you learn Arabic, if I might ask? I’d like to learn by heading to an Arabic speaking country, so I’d like to be aware of the differences in dialects among them.

its my native language…every country has a different dialect but all have the same formal arabic…

Well, if you love Muslims, you should make an effort to understand what they actually believe, as opposed to what people who don’t like Muslims claim they believe.

bro, are you on the same wave with us? does it need great effort to realizethat mohammad had opposite teachings?

I know very well what the bible teaches about how the world is to know a Christian, as well. When you attack another faith and accuse it of being virtually satanic, think of this…if you had no religious identifiers, not even your name, would people know for sure you were Christian?

the Bible tells me to be aware of false prophets and to test and to refuse any spirit that is not from God…i respect and love muslims, yes…but do not expect to love a false teaching, labeled as anti-Christ in the Bible.

You did not answer my question : do you believe Jesus is God incarnate?