Islamaphobia?

[oldcatholicguy]

With about 1.6 billion followers or 23% of earth’s population, Islam is the second-largest religion and the fastest-growing religion in the world.

So let’s just say that only 10% of Muslims are Islamic extremists.

THAT IS A HELL OF A LOT OF EXTREMISTS.

And they are recruiting right here in America…

And your 10% figure comes from where? 10% would be 160 million. The population of Pakistan is 188 million, Afghanistan 28 million, Yemen 26 million, Somalia 10 million, Libya 6.2 million, Jordan (no clue why Jordan was put on the list) 6.6 million, Indonesia 252 million.

 

[SuperLuigi]

In the wake of ISIS and other instances of radical Islam, how can Catholics make sure we don’t develop Islamaphobia toward our Muslim brothers and sisters? And I mean genuine Islamaphobia, not the kind that the secular culture rattles on about that amounts to anything that isn’t unquestionable acceptance of anything different.
This forum even has rules against posts that incite this kind of thing.

Though in a scan of the World News subforum, there are often threads reporting on things various men of the Catholic cloth have said on Islam being a dangerous threat to the entire world and such things aren’t considered Islamaphobic. Sure they’re often said by priests and bishops who have seen such terrorism firsthand like in Mosul, but justification is a tricky thing. I’m sure similar feelings about, say, the Japanese sprung up after the Imperialistic conquest of the Pacific and the Attack on Pearl Harbor. And look at how Japanese-American were treated after that.

The Cathechism also says there’s a special place in God’s Plan of Salvation for Muslims, that they too claim to worship the God of Abraham as we do and that God loves them with His Unconditional Everlasting Love as their Creator.

How can we know when the Enemy is starting to sew seeds of hate within us and trying to justify it as “They hate you, why not return the sentiment?” Because that’s just evil and not Christlike at all.

First of all, Islam cannot be generalized. I’ve said before that one of the challenges that Muslims have is there is no central leader like the Pope, so there are many interpretations of the religions.

Second, I see two extremes. There is the view that all Muslims are bad and want to take over the world. That is nonsense. However, the argument that if sharia law ever came to where you live and conservative Muslim men did not risk life and limb for your benefit-----that is a tangible argument and we’e already seen it as recently as the Axis Powers in WWII. Think every Italian, Japanese or German was fully loyal to their government’s imperial ambitions? Then again, short the US entry into WWII, what did they have to lose?

The other extreme that is more often seen in the politically correct Western world is maybe not so much that all Muslims are peace-loving, but that Islam must be defended and pandered to at any cost.They think that it’s total nonsense that ISIS gets their inspiration for violence from the Koran and/or the Hadith, but if a TEA PARTY or English Defense League supporter starting quoting Old Testament passages to form a militia or worse, you can bet real money the PC crowd and their media allies would be singing a different tune.

Islam has many different interpretations whether people like it or not; it is just the way it is. Certainly one could argue that violence has no place in Islam which defeats the first extreme I mentioned (look at the Sufis in Oman, for instance) but one can also use Islamic references for expansion and conquest which defeats the second extreme. And I will add just because some zealots choose to live their lives fighting a war against the world in the name of Islam does not render all Muslims bad or is somehow the right form of Islam.

 

[WonderAndAwe]

And your 10% figure comes from where? 10% would be 160 million. The population of Pakistan is 188 million, Afghanistan 28 million, Yemen 26 million, Somalia 10 million, Libya 6.2 million, Jordan (no clue why Jordan was put on the list) 6.6 million, Indonesia 252 million.

Based on the way Zoltan Cobalt put it, 10% might just be an arbitrary number.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Based on the way Zoltan Cobalt put it, 10% might just be an arbitrary number.

Yes, and “out of thin air” numbers really aren’t helpful.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Based on the way Zoltan Cobalt put it, 10% might just be an arbitrary number.

Yes the number is much higher…around 60% are traditional sharia advocates (although not necessarily terrorism advocates) based on the hard stats in my previous post.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Yes, and “out of thin air” numbers really aren’t helpful.

Then look at the real numbers I provided.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Then look at the real numbers I provided.

I did look at the numbers you provided and for the sake of this argument I won’t question their validity (I don’t have much faith in Pew when it comes to their polls dealing with any religion). If this was a discussion on Sharia your numbers would matter. However, the discussion seems to be turning into Sharia= Islamic extremist. That’s not really the case.

If you are trying to state that-
-The Sharia system is unjust and has inbuilt unjust discrimination in it;
-and that this results in unjust discrimination and persecution as well as unjust laws and acts;
-and that the global usage of it would be bad due to this

Then I agree. But, I don’t think that is what this discussion is about.

 

[WonderAndAwe]

First of all, Islam cannot be generalized. I’ve said before that one of the challenges that Muslims have is there is no central leader like the Pope, so there are many interpretations of the religions.

Second, I see two extremes. There is the view that all Muslims are bad and want to take over the world. That is nonsense. However, the argument that if sharia law ever came to where you live and conservative Muslim men did not risk life and limb for your benefit-----that is a tangible argument and we’e already seen it as recently as the Axis Powers in WWII. Think every Italian, Japanese or German was fully loyal to their government’s imperial ambitions? Then again, short the US entry into WWII, what did they have to lose?

The other extreme that is more often seen in the politically correct Western world is maybe not so much that all Muslims are peace-loving, but that Islam must be defended and pandered to at any cost.They think that it’s total nonsense that ISIS gets their inspiration for violence from the Koran and/or the Hadith, but if a TEA PARTY or English Defense League supporter starting quoting Old Testament passages to form a militia or worse, you can bet real money the PC crowd would be singing a different tune.

Islam has many different interpretations whether people like it or not; it is just the way it is. Certainly one could argue that violence has no place in Islam which defeats the first extreme I mentioned, but one can also use Islamic references for expansion and conquest which defeats the second extreme.

sigh Why can’t there ever be easy answers to things.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

And your 10% figure comes from where? 10% would be 160 million. The population of Pakistan is 188 million, Afghanistan 28 million, Yemen 26 million, Somalia 10 million, Libya 6.2 million, Jordan (no clue why Jordan was put on the list) 6.6 million, Indonesia 252 million.

I just picked 10% as a reasonable percentage. The 1.6 BILLION comes from Wickpedia.

160 million is a lot of extremists…all intent on killing “unbelievers” and destroying Western civilization.

But…let’s say that I overestimated…let’s say there only 5% of Muslims that are Islamic fanatics. That leaves 80 Million. Now if that sounds more reasonable to you…look up the number of Muslims living in the United States and consider that 5% of them are Islamic Jidhadist fanatics and tell me if you can sleep soundly at night…

 

[Jon_S_1]

I did look at the numbers you provided and for the sake of this argument I won’t question their validity (I don’t have much faith in Pew when it comes to their polls dealing with any religion). If this was a discussion on Sharia your numbers would matter. However, the discussion seems to be turning into Sharia= Islamic extremist. That’s not really the case.

If you are trying to state that-
-The Sharia system is unjust and has inbuilt unjust discrimination in it;
-and that this results in unjust discrimination and persecution as well as unjust laws and acts;
-and that the global usage of it would be bad due to this

Then I agree. But, I don’t think that is what this discussion is about.

This though is the real threat…not terrorism but this.

Note too that sharia allows no freedom of religion.

 

[WonderAndAwe]

I just picked 10% as a reasonable percentage. The 1.6 BILLION comes from Wickpedia.

160 million is a lot of extremists…all intent on killing “unbelievers” and destroying Western civilization.

But…let’s say that I overestimated…let’s say there only 5% of Muslims that are Islamic fanatics. That leaves 80 Million. Now if that sounds more reasonable to you…look up the number of Muslims living in the United States and consider that 5% of them are Islamic Jidhadist fanatics and tell me if you can sleep soundly at night…

Huh, I was right about that 10%.

And even on just this number of all the extremists in the world, it gets more unsettling when you add “ever” into the mix. Islam started in the 7th Century. Think of all the Muslims from then to now. Think of all the possible statistics of individuals in there.
And all the souls of all those fellow humans made in God’s Image and Likeness.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I just picked 10% as a reasonable percentage. The 1.6 BILLION comes from Wickpedia.

160 million is a lot of extremists…all intent on killing “unbelievers” and destroying Western civilization.

But…let’s say that I overestimated…let’s say there only 5% of Muslims that are Islamic fanatics. That leaves 80 Million. Now if that sounds more reasonable to you…look up the number of Muslims living in the United States and consider that 5% of them are Islamic Jidhadist fanatics and tell me if you can sleep soundly at night…

So in other words you don’t actually have any information on the % of Muslims who are Islamic extremists, but you want me to answer a question based on your self admitted lack of information which in addition to lacking any actual proof of the % of Muslims who are Islamic extremists it assumes these extremists make up a uniform portion of the Muslim population in every country. Well I hate to break it to, but Islamic extremists don’t keep me up at night. I sleep very soundly and did so in Iraq when I was surrounded by insurgents and Islamic extremists.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

This though is the real threat…not terrorism but this.

Note too that sharia allows no freedom of religion.

Oh I agree. And this threat isn’t just limited to Islam. It exists in every faith and belief system that did not come from God (i.e. all non-Jewish, non-Catholic faiths) to one degree or another.

The real danger of Islam isn’t what the small minority of extremists are claiming to do in it’s name, it is its incorporation into social/cultural norms things that are unjust or unjustly discriminatory. It’s really no different than secularism or materialism in this regard.

 

[WonderAndAwe]

Oh I agree. And this threat isn’t just limited to Islam. It exists in every faith and belief system that did not come from God (i.e. all non-Jewish, non-Catholic faiths) to one degree or another.

The real danger of Islam isn’t what the small minority of extremists are claiming to do in it’s name, it is its incorporation into social/cultural norms. It’s really no different than secularism or materialism in this regard.

So how do we answer I’ll-founded claims that we’re “being racist by not letting minorities practice their religion/cultural heritage?”

 

[Jon_S_1]

Oh I agree. And this threat isn’t just limited to Islam. It exists in every faith and belief system that did not come from God (i.e. all non-Jewish, non-Catholic faiths) to one degree or another.

The real danger of Islam isn’t what the small minority of extremists are claiming to do in it’s name, it is its incorporation into social/cultural norms. It’s really no different than secularism or materialism in this regard.

I would say it’s more dangerous because they justify and use force to accomplish their goals.

thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm

Check out these stats and see what you think.

One of them is a Pew poll that 49% supported Bin Laden

 

[oldcatholicguy]

So how do we answer I’ll-founded claims that we’re “being racist by not letting minorities practice their religion/cultural heritage?”

That’s too generalized for me to give a good response to. Do you have a particular example?

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

So in other words you don’t actually have any information on the % of Muslims who are Islamic extremists, but you want me to answer a question based on your self admitted lack of information which in addition to lacking any actual proof of the % of Muslims who are Islamic extremists it assumes these extremists make up a uniform portion of the Muslim population in every country. Well I hate to break it to, but Islamic extremists don’t keep me up at night. I sleep very soundly and did so in Iraq when I was surrounded by insurgents and Islamic extremists.

Gee…I don’t remember you from Iraq…when were you there?

i did sleep pretty well when I was there because we always had a few “brothers” on watch.

Now I wonder who is watching the local Mosque down on Main Street. I wonder what percentage of “followers” are cooking up something other than evening prayers.

Wake up and smell the flowers while they are still alive.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Gee…I don’t remember you from Iraq…when were you there?

i did sleep pretty well when I was there because we always had a few “brothers” on watch.

Now I wonder who is watching the local Mosque down on Main Street. I wonder what percentage of “followers” are cooking up something other than evening prayers.

Wake up and smell the flowers while they are still alive.

Tail end of the 04-05 rotation and pretty much all of the 06-07 one (the one they extended).

 

[WonderAndAwe]

That’s too generalized for me to give a good response to. Do you have a particular example?

French schools outlawing hijabs.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Huh, I was right about that 10%.
.

Bingo!. yes my10% was an arbitrary number. Your grasp of the obvious is astounding.

But, know what…I will stick to that number until someone proves me wrong. Any accurate fugues presented that show a smaller or larger percentage of radical, extremist Muslims will cause me to admit defeat.

Your turn and …Oldcatholic guy,can join in.