Islamaphobia?

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Zoltan_Cobalt said:
Bingo!. yes my10% was an arbitrary number. Your grasp of the obvious is astounding.

But, know what…I will stick to that number until someone proves me wrong. Any accurate fugues presented that show a smaller or larger percentage of radical, extremist Muslims will cause me to admit defeat.

Your turn and …Oldcatholic guy,can join in.
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You’ve already admitted defeat when you-
-stated it was an arbitrary number
-decided to ask me a question based on 5%, not your original 10%
-and claimed you would stick to your arbitrary number even after you’ve admitted it was arbitrary and tried to use a smaller arbitrary number in your question to me.

You’re basically saying- “I’m going to keep using this made up number that I know is made up until someone else does my work for me and finds the actual number.” There’s an old saying- “Trash in equals trash out.” As long as you keep feeding “trash” (your made up numbers) into the discussion there is no need to actually respond since your conclusions would be the “trash out” part.
 
WonderAndAwe said:
French schools outlawing hijabs.
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That’s a poor example because the ban (which affected all religious wear) is a violation of a person’s religious rights and freedoms.

One that would not be would be a Muslim woman having to uncover her head for a security check/photo for a government ID, etc. The counter to the “well you’re just being racist by making her take off her head covering” would be the citation of the specific need for uncovering, the voluntary nature (don’t do it- don’t get through security, don’t get a government ID, etc) the short duration, and the relevant citations of the faith dealing with women can uncover (I know there are some, I just don’t have the specifics).
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
I still can’t place you…

Too bad you missed all the fun in 07-08.
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Wareagle (outside Sadr City) before they gave it back and Taji (my troop dealt with Saba al Bor). Nothing over there was what I would consider fun, or did you mean big air quotes “fun”?
 
oldcatholicguy said:
You’ve already admitted defeat when you-
-stated it was an arbitrary number
-decided to ask me a question based on 5%, not your original 10%
-and claimed you would stick to your arbitrary number even after you’ve admitted it was arbitrary and tried to use a smaller arbitrary number in your question to me.

You’re basically saying- “I’m going to keep using this made up number that I know is made up until someone else does my work for me and finds the actual number.” There’s an old saying- “Trash in equals trash out.” As long as you keep feeding “trash” (your made up numbers) into the discussion there is no need to actually respond since your conclusions would be the “trash out” part.
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Hey…all true…I admit it.

But you are just saying that I am wrong because YOU don’t like the implication of my “arbitrary” percentage…it defeats your argument… that all Muslims world wide are our friends and only want to support our beliefs and are really trying to accept the pope as the universal spiritual leader. Or…there is no such thing as radical extremist Muslims who are bent on Jihad against Western Civilization and Christians in particular.

I take a strong dislike to those who blindly excuse radical Islam as just a bunch of fun loving guys raising a little hell…

So prove me wrong…show me that 10% of Islam is not radical.

In two or three more posts…one of us is going to be a fool 😉
 
WonderAndAwe said:
So how do we answer I’ll-founded claims that we’re “being racist by not letting minorities practice their religion/cultural heritage?”
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People of middle eastern descent are considered white by the US census bureau. So they are hardly a racial minority.
 
:mad:

Muslims revere the one true God. That is a fact which has been expressed by former Pope Benedict himself!

Even though the Muslims don’t worship Christ, they revere him as a holy prophet… The virgin Mary even has an entire book/section/chapter (<— which one??) in the Quran all to herself!!

There are *reasons *why Pope Francis is reaching out to the Muslims! He recognizes that they are not our enemies, and that the mass media is only trying to turn mankind *against *each other!

The Muslims profess their faith in the God of Abraham. They are part of the fulfillment of the prophecy uttered by Isaiah: The knowledge of God shall cover the Earth. (11:9)

Even though Muslims don’t worship the same God we do, and even if some of their laws contradict human dignity, they, next to the Jews, are much closer to the truth then any other religion on this planet!!!

:nunchuk::nunchuk:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

SNIPPET, paragraph 5: The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion. On the contrary, following in the footsteps of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, this sacred synod ardently implores the Christian faithful to “maintain good fellowship among the nations” (1 Peter 2:12), and, if possible, to live for their part in peace with all men,(14) so that they may truly be sons of the Father who is in heaven.(15)

AKA DON’T BULLY OR STEREOTYPE OTHERS NO MATTER WHAT!!!

It is perfectly acceptable to point out the flaws in Islam, but shunning the Muslims, and frankly, any other person or group, or pointing out their flaws uncharitably, or calling them a bunch of crazy terrorists, is BAD…UN-christian!!

There are good aspects to *every *religion!!

:nunchuk::nunchuk:

Further Reading
Quick Questions
catholic.com/quickquestions/is-it-the-popes-private-opinion-that-muslims-worship-the-same-god

Long article
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/do-muslims-worship-the-same-god-catholics-do
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
In two or three more posts…one of us is going to be a fool 😉
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👍 Your bravery is noteworthy, don’t be uncharitable because of it.
 
theoda said:
Well then it seems like we have a contradiction of infallible documents(If the catechism is infallible, which I am 95% sure it is). However, the Catholic Church has always taught for 2,000 years that there is no salvation outside the church. Then it seems to have changed in the last 20 years. Which one is more credible?
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Not everything a pope says or writes is infallible. If those writings which you quoted were “ex cathedra,” and accurately translated, then I might have to reconsider.

The Catechism does allow that non-Christians may be saved:
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
…
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.
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theoda,

The papal bull you refer to is for those who obstinately choose not to follow or in the case of the reason for the bull, leave the faith, knowing that they are abandoning the true Church because of secular/evil reasons.

Think of a sexually abused child by a religeous in the Catholic Church, do you honestly think that such a person is lost because they leave the Church (for good reasons in their mind) and end up practicing some other faith etc.

Context is most important
 
oldcatholicguy said:
Oh I agree. And this threat isn’t just limited to Islam. It exists in every faith and belief system that did not come from God (i.e. all non-Jewish, non-Catholic faiths) to one degree or another.

The real danger of Islam isn’t what the small minority of extremists are claiming to do in it’s name, it is its incorporation into social/cultural norms things that are unjust or unjustly discriminatory. It’s really no different than secularism or materialism in this regard.
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thespeaker.co/42-percent-muslims-polled-pew-research-think-suicide-bombing-violence-civilians-least-occasionally-justified/

Here is another poll. If you define “extremism” as willing to support suicide bombings and other violence against civilian targets…then there is a statistically significant number of people who call themselves “Muslims” that would be “extremists”. Can you name other religions which would have such a high percentage of people who support violence against innocents? It seems Zoltan’s 10% would be a fair overall estimate.
 
Even though the Muslims don’t worship Christ, they revere him as a holy prophet… The virgin Mary even has an entire book/section/chapter (<— which one??) in the Quran all to herself!!
Revering Christ as a prophet is still a denial of who He was.

There are *reasons *why Pope Francis is reaching out to the Muslims! He recognizes that they are not our enemies, and that the mass media is only trying to turn mankind *against *each other!

The Muslims profess their faith in the God of Abraham. They are part of the fulfillment of the prophecy uttered by Isaiah: The knowledge of God shall cover the Earth. (11:9)
Yes, Muslims believe that Islam is a part of the Abrahamic faiths and like the other two are divinely inspired. This belief does not make it true though. Islam is a man made religion; and the only real difference between it and the other man made religions is that it directly incorporates some of the truths found within the two divinely inspired faiths it claims to be the final continuation of.

Even though Muslims don’t worship the same God we do, and even if some of their laws contradict human dignity, they, next to the Jews, are much closer to the truth then any other religion on this planet!!!
Muslims do worship the same God we do. That’s why the CCC has a separate entry for Muslims instead of grouping them in with all the other non-Jewish non-Christian faiths. It’s that their worship of God is in error/incomplete because of the errors within Islam.
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
Hey…all true…I admit it.

But you are just saying that I am wrong because YOU don’t like the implication of my “arbitrary” percentage…it defeats your argument… that all Muslims world wide are our friends and only want to support our beliefs and are really trying to accept the pope as the universal spiritual leader. Or…there is no such thing as radical extremist Muslims who are bent on Jihad against Western Civilization and Christians in particular.

I take a strong dislike to those who blindly excuse radical Islam as just a bunch of fun loving guys raising a little hell…

So prove me wrong…show me that 10% of Islam is not radical.

In two or three more posts…one of us is going to be a fool 😉
Click to expand...
I never claimed “that all Muslims world wide are our friends and only want to support our beliefs and are really trying to accept the pope as the universal spiritual leader;” nor did I ever claim that there is no such thing as radical extremist Muslims. What I did do was challenge your “out of thin air” numbers.

And no, I don’t need to prove you wrong concerning your made up numbers because you’ve already admitted that you made them up.
You- “Hey, I made up these numbers, now prove that my numbers are wrong.”
Me- “Um, they’re wrong because you said you made them up.”🤷
You- “Well yeah I made them up, but you need to prove they are wrong.”
Me- :confused:
 
The Church invites us to follow the teachings of Jesus… and to love our neighbours as ourselves… this means everyone, we aren’t to pick and choose. We believe that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, and so we are to follow this teaching and treat people with dignity.

Jesus said that worrying won’t add a single hour to our lives. Worrying about extremists won’t change anything, if it’s meant to be. We should focus on what is pleasing to God.

…and the fact is that the future is written (see Revelations, see Daniel, see Matthew etc.) though I’ll add that prayer is very powerful. And if you remember, Jesus rebuked Peter because he tried to prevent that which must be. If the time is coming soon, well let’s just stick to what Jesus taught us to do and love our neighbour and hold true to our faith.
 
shockerfan said:
thespeaker.co/42-percent-muslims-polled-pew-research-think-suicide-bombing-violence-civilians-least-occasionally-justified/

Here is another poll. If you define “extremism” as willing to support suicide bombings and other violence against civilian targets…then there is a statistically significant number of people who call themselves “Muslims” that would be “extremists”. Can you name other religions which would have such a high percentage of people who support violence against innocents? It seems Zoltan’s 10% would be a fair overall estimate.
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I can’t get the page to load, but if it’s the same PEW report that I think it is they don’t do a good job controlling for variables (one of the reasons I don’t like PEW, the other being their generalized idiotic questions and conclusions- see their report concerning atheists “knowing” more about religion than Christians). That said, PEW also goes on to report that the support for such actions is decreasing in the world-wide Muslim population. Are we to conclude that Islamic extremism (based on your above definition) is actually on the decline?

Here’s a list of Islamic groups that would meet your definition of extremism- cpostdata.uchicago.edu/search_new.php . Are we to assume that the Islamic groups listed (not all the groups listed are Islamic by the way) comprise a very sizable number of the world-wide Muslim population?
 
oldcatholicguy said:
I can’t get the page to load, but if it’s the same PEW report that I think it is they don’t do a good job controlling for variables (one of the reasons I don’t like PEW, the other being their generalized idiotic questions and conclusions- see their report concerning atheists “knowing” more about religion than Christians). That said, PEW also goes on to report that the support for such actions is decreasing in the world-wide Muslim population. Are we to conclude that Islamic extremism (based on your above definition) is actually on the decline?

Here’s a list of Islamic groups that would meet your definition of extremism- cpostdata.uchicago.edu/search_new.php . Are we to assume that the Islamic groups listed (not all the groups listed are Islamic by the way) comprise a very sizable number of the world-wide Muslim population?
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I appreciate the database, but your point is what?

My point is this: there is a statistically significant percentage of Muslims worldwide that subscribe to a very violent view of their faith. Certainly not a majority of Muslims, but enough that we should have great concern. Obviously, trying to pin down the exact number is very subjective, but it seems reasonable based on what statistical information we do have that the number of Muslims who think suicide bombings are OK, or that there should be a Caliphate, or that non-Muslims should either convert, pay a Jizya, or die, is significant. I have no desire to paint with a broad brush, but we should admit that some Muslims hard line view of their faith is a threat.

Agree or disagree?
 
shockerfan said:
I appreciate the database, but your point is what?

My point is this: there is a statistically significant percentage of Muslims worldwide that subscribe to a very violent view of their faith. Certainly not a majority of Muslims, but enough that we should have great concern. Obviously, trying to pin down the exact number is very subjective, but it seems reasonable based on what statistical information we do have that the number of Muslims who think suicide bombings are OK, or that there should be a Caliphate, or that non-Muslims should either convert, pay a Jizya, or die, is significant. I have no desire to paint with a broad brush, but we should admit that some Muslims hard line view of their faith is a threat.

Agree or disagree?
Click to expand...
I agree with your above.
 
Faxero said:
:mad:

Muslims revere the one true God. That is a fact which has been expressed by former Pope Benedict himself!

Even though the Muslims don’t worship Christ, they revere him as a holy prophet… The virgin Mary even has an entire book/section/chapter (<— which one??) in the Quran all to herself!!

There are *reasons *why Pope Francis is reaching out to the Muslims! He recognizes that they are not our enemies, and that the mass media is only trying to turn mankind *against *each other!

The Muslims profess their faith in the God of Abraham. They are part of the fulfillment of the prophecy uttered by Isaiah: The knowledge of God shall cover the Earth. (11:9)

Even though Muslims don’t worship the same God we do, and even if some of their laws contradict human dignity, they, next to the Jews, are much closer to the truth then any other religion on this planet!!!

:nunchuk::nunchuk:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

SNIPPET, paragraph 5: The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion. On the contrary, following in the footsteps of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, this sacred synod ardently implores the Christian faithful to “maintain good fellowship among the nations” (1 Peter 2:12), and, if possible, to live for their part in peace with all men,(14) so that they may truly be sons of the Father who is in heaven.(15)

AKA DON’T BULLY OR STEREOTYPE OTHERS NO MATTER WHAT!!!

It is perfectly acceptable to point out the flaws in Islam, but shunning the Muslims, and frankly, any other person or group, or pointing out their flaws uncharitably, or calling them a bunch of crazy terrorists, is BAD…UN-christian!!

There are good aspects to *every *religion!!

:nunchuk::nunchuk:

Further Reading
Quick Questions
catholic.com/quickquestions/is-it-the-popes-private-opinion-that-muslims-worship-the-same-god

Long article
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/do-muslims-worship-the-same-god-catholics-do

👍 Your bravery is noteworthy, don’t be uncharitable because of it.
Click to expand...
I am well aware of the Church’s relations with Islam and also the Holy Father’s opinions.

It is just that from my perspective I view Islam as a political ideology rather than a religion. I also think that the world will be a better place as more and more people realize this.

Not to worry. I am a charitable guy. I just don’t feel very charitable towards people who be-head other people because they don’t go to the same church.
 
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