Islamic claim: Jesus never claimed to be Son of God & Didn't really die on the cross.???? Prove it!

[planten]

The Law itself was not a curse. It cannot be since the Law itself was from God. He said those who observe the law are under a curse, namely because 1) it does not sanctify 2) it cannot remove Original Sin and 3) to reject the new Law , which is the fulfillment of the old Law, is to reject Christ Himself.

**It is not understood. How could it be like that ! Does the bible OT teach that mankind is born sinful? Please give reference from OT. If law was such a useless thing then why did God prescribe it for the people? It means He made a mistake?.

Then later, not even by the mouth of Jesus, this mistake had to be disclosed by the mouth of a person who was not a companion of Jesus. What right Saul had to interpret the law being a curse if Jesus did not do so?

There are many things being introduced into christianity by people other than Jesus. So the real teachings of Jesus (which are very few anyway in the bible NT) have been changed…and over-ridden, rather trampled underfoot.**

 

[Jimmy_B]

Taken from another thread…ooooookkaaaaayyy…

I’m just dying to see your proofs of all this.

Anyone can make that claim, now prove it?

Something that is not true, cannot be proven…

 

[planten]

Does this statement of yours mean that you Muslims believe Jesus’ Gospel was a universal message since you call the Koran a revelation for the universe?

Does it also mean that you Muslims believe in the authenticity of the Gospel and refute the allegations of biblical corruption since you believe that Mohammad’s revelation was preserved from corruption by Allah?

If your answer to these two questions is simply NO, I shall never be convinced that Allah in your Koran commands Muslims NOT to distinguish Jesus from Mohammad.

**Angelos, It is the Quran which is telling us that we should not differentiate between the messengers of Allah. Jesus and Moses and Muhammad were all messengers of Allah. It does not mean that they all had the same message. There can be slight difference in the message given to them according to the time and situation.

For example. Jesus or Muhammad would not get the same message as was given to Moses who was facing the difficulty of bringing the Jewish people out of slavery of Egyptians. He was facing prosecution from Pharoah.

The message of Unitarian faith is same for all messengers. Some messengers can be superior to others (Al-Quran 2:253). We do not differentiate in such a way that we believe in all of them. We do not say that we believe in some of them as true messengers and others as false messengers.

The message in the bible NT was for the Jews of that time. However it is still useful for those who like to follow it peacefully.

The corruption (man made changes) in the bible we believe because it is also written in the Quran that the christians lost the message after having had the real guidance care of Jesus, the man of God.**

 

[inJESUS]

It is not understood. How could it be like that ! Does the bible OT teach that mankind is born sinful?

depends what you understand by sinful. If you mean that a baby is sinning, no, but if it means humans have the tendance to evil, then yes it’s all over the Bible. Even in your book:

Nor do I absolve my own self (of blame): the (human) soul is certainly prone to evil, unless my Lord do bestow His Mercy: but surely my Lord is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." S. 12:53

this is the orginal sin.

If law was such a useless thing then why did God prescribe it for the people? It means He made a mistake.

 

[planten]

Something that is not true, cannot be proven…

Prove what please indicate clearly. Thanks.

 

[Angelos]

Do you mean the Old testament was wrong? Jesus knew all about it, taught it in a better way, upheld the teachings of the OT. He knew that his death on the cross would be a bad (cursed) death. That is why he prayed whole night earnestly in the garden before his arrest to avoid that cup. He did not like that cursed death.

I never stated that the Old Testament was wrong, but simply objected to your erroneous assumption that the depiction of hung criminals as cursed people was invented by Paul!

Where do you read in the Gospels that God the Father promised to answer Jesus’ prayer in the garden by preventing His arrest and passion? Where does Jesus say in His last prayer that He does not want to drink from the cup of passion because that will make Him a cursed person? You are falsely reading into the Gospels from your mind, which is good at wishful thinking.

Actually, Jesus rebuts your claim when He says:

Matthew 26:53-54 Thinkest thou that I cannot ask my Father, and he will give me presently more than twelve legions of angels? How then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that so it must be done?

John 18:11 Jesus therefore said to Peter: Put up thy sword into the scabbard. The chalice which my father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

**
Quran avoids that cursed death. The curse is not by being put on the cross. Curse is by the death on the cross**. Quran denies that Jesus died on the cross. So there is no curse. Praise be to Allah who miraculously saved Jesus from a sure death on the cross.

NO! The Koran fails to avoid that cursed death. The only thing the god of the Koran can do is make Jesus appear to His foes as a crucified and cursed man.

Sorry my friend, the Old Testament does not make that distinction. According to the verse, every man hung on the tree (crucified) is considered cursed. More, the Koran conceals from Jews the alleged fact that Jesus was saved by Allah and consequently compels Jews to keep considering Jesus dead and cursed!

Finally, what miracle are you talking about when you say that Allah miraculously saved Jesus from a sure death on the cross? What hampered Allah from saving Jesus from the hands of His enemies prior to His crucifixion? What was the point of making Jesus really suffer on the cross??? Answer me please. Thanks.

 

[inJESUS]

Planten, how many laws do you have in Islam and which you must follow to the letter? plenty…from food to clothes to cleaning rituals to prayers to fasting to everday life dos and donts to personal feelings ecc ecc…

Let’s say these laws are a miror…whenever you apply one law, a reflection of you is seen in the mirror.

Now when you fail to observe one Law, a dark spot is represented in the mirror.

and since you cannot observe everything always, your reflection in the mirror will always have dark spots.

In this regard, the Mirror/Law is held against you because it is showing you that you are not observing everything…not that the Mirror/Law is wrong, but that *you *are wrong.

and because you cannot always observe the law, you will have to fast for your wrong doings, pray extra prayers, ask for forgiveness every day, do whatever is necessary to clean your imperfections because you were not up to the law…and it is a closed circle. In this regard, the Law is a curse because of you.

Jesus became a curse because of us. Not that Jesus was cursed, but because we are cursing ourselves by our deeds and when Jesus took the curse or “became a curse”, it means He took our curse, He lifted our curse, telling us that we are saved because of God’s mercy, not because of our deeds that curse us. In this regard Jesus became a curse…it does not mean Jesus is cursed!

to give another example, if you steal money and your father says he did it and your father is put in prison. *To us humans *, your father is a criminal because he is in prison. Does it mean your father is a criminal? no, he accepted what we see as crime in order to achieve something better. In this regard, your father used a curse to turn it into somethin better for you.

Jesus did the same in almost everything. He took the curse to turn it to blessing. He accepted death to turn it into resurrection. He did not use violence to show what real power is. He told us to turn our cheek to teach that non-hatred is power , turning upside down the human definition of power,he turned the old wine unto new wine and only God can do this, not your deeds .

 

[Angelos]

Angelos, It is the Quran which is telling us that we should not differentiate between the messengers of Allah. Jesus and Moses and Muhammad were all messengers of Allah. It does not mean that they all had the same message. There can be slight difference in the message given to them according to the time and situation.

Nevertheless, the Koran asks you Muslims to believe in all the prophets IN THE SAME WAY. You definitely did not get my point. You Muslims believe that ALL PROPHETS were sent to their nation and then contradict yourselves when you claim Mohammad was the only messenger sent to the UNIVERSE. This is clear differentiation and innovation.

Besides, the Islamic theory that all prophets had different messages will not prove another Islamic assertion that Mohammad is the final messenger with the ONLY TRUE religion as the seal of prophets.

**
The message of Unitarian faith is same for all messengers. Some messengers can be superior to others (Al-Quran 2:253). We do not differentiate in such a way that we believe in all of them. We do not say that we believe in some of them as true messengers and others as false messengers.**

I shall not be convinced that you do not distinguish one prophet from another as long as you assert that the truth came ONLY through Mohammad and that the truth exists ONLY in the Koran. More to the point, I shall not consider you sincere believers until you believe in a certain prophet NOT in accordance with the things stated in the Koran, but in accordance with the things stated in that prophet’s peculiar revelation (For instance, believe in Moses because of your faith in the Torah).

**
The message in the bible NT was for the Jews of that time. However it is still useful for those who like to follow it peacefully.**

First, the New Testament does not teach that Jesus’ message was confined to Jews.

Second, the Koran defines itself as a revelation written in Arabic warning only Mohammad’s folk in that specific period.

**
The corruption (man made changes) in the bible we believe because it is also written in the Quran that the christians lost the message after having had the real guidance care of Jesus, the man of God.**

You desperately believe in biblical corruption because the authenticity of the Bible leads one to the conclusion that your messenger was a liar and your scripture did not come from God. The supposed validity of the Koran is pathetically dependent on the corruption of the former revelations.

Again, you are not sincere when you say that Christians lost guidance after Jesus. According to this assertion, Allah went dead after the death of his messengers and failed to preserve his truth!

If you Muslims really believed in the Bible as you believe in the Koran, you would also believe that the Bible was preserved by Allah from corruption.

 

[inJESUS]

The supposed validity of the Koran is pathetically dependent on the corruption of the former revelations.

 

[inJESUS]

Here again Planten:

The LORD foils the plan of nations, frustrates the designs of peoples.
But the plan of the LORD stands forever, wise designs through all generations. Ps 33

and you Planten is saying that God cannot frustrate the designs of people?

Enter the temple gates with praise, its courts with thanksgiving. Give thanks to God, bless his name;

good indeed is the LORD, Whose love endures forever, whose faithfulness lasts through every age. ps100

are you saying that God is not good nor faithful?

The works of your hands are right and true, reliable all your decrees,

are you saying the works of His hands turned fwrong, false and unreliable?

Established forever and ever, to be observed with loyalty and care. ps111

are you saying what God established was corrupt and hence neither forever and ever nor to be observed?

Praise the LORD, all you nations! Give glory, all you peoples!

are you praising Him when you call Him untruthful?

The LORD’S love for us is strong; the LORD is faithful forever. Hallelujah! ps117

do you believe this or is He unfaithful?

Your word, LORD, stands forever; it is firm as the heavens.

are you calling Him a liar ( astaghfirullah).

Through all generations your truth endures; fixed to stand firm like the earth. ps119-89

are you saying His truth was corrupt and was not fixed but shaken?

**Though the grass withers and the flower wilts, the word of our God stands forever." **Isaiah 40-8

are you calling Him again, a liar ? (God forbids these insults to His majesty!)

Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. Matthew 5:18

same insult for the third time?

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. Matthew 24-35

for the fourth time?

You have been born anew, not from perishable but from imperishable seed, through **the living and abiding word of God **1 Peter 1

No? He is untruthful? His word is not living and abiding?

For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, who masquerade as apostles of Christ.

And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light. isn’t this a clear prophetic warning?

Why do you think we should allow a gnostic and legend and apocrypha forgerer to insult God? only because he claimed so and people thought he was truthful?

 

[Angelos]

Here again Planten:

The LORD foils the plan of nations, frustrates the designs of peoples.
But the plan of the LORD stands forever, wise designs through all generations. Ps 33

and you Planten is saying that God cannot frustrate the designs of people?

Enter the temple gates with praise, its courts with thanksgiving. Give thanks to God, bless his name;

good indeed is the LORD, Whose love endures forever, whose faithfulness lasts through every age. ps100

are you saying that God is not good nor faithful?

The works of your hands are right and true, reliable all your decrees,

are you saying the works of His hands turned fwrong, false and unreliable?

Established forever and ever, to be observed with loyalty and care. ps111

are you saying what God established was corrupt and hence neither forever and ever nor to be observed?

Praise the LORD, all you nations! Give glory, all you peoples!

are you praising Him when you call Him untruthful?

The LORD’S love for us is strong; the LORD is faithful forever. Hallelujah! ps117

do you believe this or is He unfaithful?

Your word, LORD, stands forever; it is firm as the heavens.

are you calling Him a liar ( astaghfirullah).

Through all generations your truth endures; fixed to stand firm like the earth. ps119-89

are you saying His truth was corrupt and was not fixed but shaken?

**Though the grass withers and the flower wilts, the word of our God stands forever." **Isaiah 40-8

are you calling Him again, a liar ? (God forbids these insults to His majesty!)

Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. Matthew 5:18

same insult for the third time?

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. Matthew 24-35

for the fourth time?

You have been born anew, not from perishable but from imperishable seed, through **the living and abiding word of God **1 Peter 1

No? He is untruthful? His word is not living and abiding?

For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, who masquerade as apostles of Christ.

And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light. isn’t this a clear prophetic warning?

Why do you think we should allow a gnostic and legend and apocrypha forgerer to insult God? only because he claimed so and people thought he was truthful?

I am proud of you my great friend!

 

[planten]

depends what you understand by sinful. If you mean that a baby is sinning, no, but if it means humans have the tendance to evil, then yes it’s all over the Bible. Even in your book:

 

[Angelos]

That is correct. The lower self inclines a person to do bad deeds. But it does not say that man is aborn sinner. Not in the Quran and not in the bible OT.

The scribes of the Koran were apparently influenced by Paul’s theological remarks about man’s innate tendency to evil:

Surah 16:61. If Allah were to take mankind to task for their wrong-doing, he would not leave hereon a living creature, but He reprieveth them to an appointed term, and when their term cometh they cannot put (it) off an hour nor (yet) advance (it).
.

No there is no original sin. Man is prone to make mistakes. Sin is not the same as mistakes. Sin is something like intentional evil act. Mistake is a forgetfulness.

Please show us the Koran verses that distinguish SIN from MISTAKES. Besides, the verse quoted by inJESUS does not have the word “mistake” or “sin”, but EVIL. That Koran verse thus endorses the idea of human soul’s tendency to EVIL, which is compatible with Paul’s teachings.

It is said that “To err is human. Forgiveness is divine”. That is tellingabout the human nature and the divine nature. The Dare Devil sinned. That was a willing disobediance of the command of Allah. Nobody incited or misguided him.

Is that motto included in the Koran or Bible?

But Adam was misguided. He did not intend to disobey. So that was just a mistake or lapse of duty. Even then, Adam asked for forgiveness. But the devil, when questioned was arrogant and haughty. Please try to see the nature of sin. It was in the Devil. Not in Adam.

How can you define Adam’s act as a mistake as a result of his repentance? Adam committed a sin because he did not obey God, who had frequently warned him against satan and his deceit.

More, why does Allah in the Koran banish Adam and his wife from His Paradise despite Adam’s repentance and His willingness to forgive him? Why are all Adam’s children born on earth, but not in Paradise? Why does Allah let all humans be negatively affected by Adam’s banishment from Paradise? Why does Allah promise to send prophets and guide humanity back to the true path after Adam’s expulsion?

Law was good and useful. Even now people have laws. The Jews have laws. The Muslims havelaws. The governments have laws. But paul saying that law was a curse and Jesus redeemed the people from the curse of the law, that was a very severe sinful saying. That was against the real teachings of Jesus too. He had no right to abondon the sacred law given by God.

Read Matthew 5 through 7 to be familiar with Christ’s Law.

Please prove me that the Mosaic and Islamic Law can and do save the souls of people observing them from sin and evil.

If Jesus actually did something to absolve the people from abiding any law by his being kille don the cross then please see the very sinful nature of the christians in western countries. Their life style is not changed for the better at all.

If you are really serious about this, I shall start feeling worried about you. Everyone knows that belief in and observation of a certain law wil never change this world into Paradise! There is still evil in this world and humans keep committing sins no matter what faith they belong to.

That is not right. There is no inspiration. God revealed things to Moses and Jesus and Muhammad and many others (names are not known). Revelation is superior to inspiration. Any of the disciples of Jesus could have been inspired but not paul. He did not deserve to be inspired.

Jesus never said that he will inspire paul and paul will convert. Not a word from Jesus about such an important news.

… and for us there is no such thing called revelation or dictation. Who are you to decide in Jesus’ name? Where did Jesus predict in the New Testament that Judas would be replaced with Matthias, that Stephen would be the first Christian martyr, that Barnabas would accompany Paul on his missionary journeys?

The Islamic aversion to Paul has almost turned into a psychological problem.

 

[inJESUS]

are you born with this lower self or buy it from the supermarket?
.

No there is no original sin. Man is prone to make mistakes. Sin is not the same as mistakes. Sin is something like intentional evil act. Mistake is a forgetfulness.

does the Quran say humans make mistakes but not sins?

But Adam was misguided. He did not intend to disobey. So that was just a mistake or lapse of duty. Even then, Adam asked for forgiveness. But the devil, when questioned was arrogant and haughty. Please try to see the nature of sin. It was in the Devil. Not in Adam.seems i must explain your scriptures for you:

this was the very tree forbidden to him yet Adam chose to believe Satan and disobey God. In another passage we find even further evidence that Adam’s transgression can hardly be excused as an unintentional mistake. We read that Satan said to Adam and Eve:

“Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live forever”. Surah 7.20

So not only Allah did already forbid it, but satan is even REMINDING them of Allah’s order. How can it be called a mistake or unintentional if Adam knew very well that Allah forbade it?

Adam sinned my friend.

Law was good and useful. Even now people have laws. The Jews have laws. The Muslims havelaws. The governments have laws. But paul saying that law was a curse and Jesus redeemed the people from the curse of the law, that was a very severe sinful saying. That was against the real teachings of Jesus too. He had no right to abondon the sacred law given by God.

did you read what i wrote in the previous post or should i repeat it ? did Allah put a law because you are perfect and holy or because of your sinful nature? if the answer is : because of your sinful nature, then it is the law which will keep reminding you that you are sinful…in this way the law is your mirror, your nightmare, your curse *because of you *not because the law is bad. Reread what i wrote in my previous post instead of repeating your misunderstanding.

If Jesus actually did something to absolve the people from abiding any law by his being kille don the cross then please see the very sinful nature of the christians in western countries. Their life style is not changed for the better at all

Jesus did not do something to absolve people from following the Law. Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial law (the law you like to hang on like Pharisee), but the Moral Law is binding. The Moral Law tells you not to kill, rape, steal, ecc. The ceremonial law of putity/sacrifices was fulfilled by Jesus and no longer existent to us who believe and accept His sacrifice.

That is not right. There is no inspiration. God revealed things to Moses and Jesus and Muhammad and many others (names are not known). Revelation is superior to inspiration.

yea teach God what is best. Your idea of “revelation” is alien to both OT and NT. When God inspires, it is God, not a child Planten…

Any of the disciples of Jesus could have been inspired but not paul. He did not deserve to be inspired.

why?

Jesus never said that he will inspire paul and paul will convert. Not a word from Jesus about such an important news.

Jesus said He will send teachers and prophets. The apostles knew more than you if Paul was one or not.

 

[inJESUS]

I am proud of you my great friend!

:hug1:

waiting for Planten’s response.

 

[inJESUS]

That is not right. There is no inspiration.

 

[morning_star777]

brother inJESUS,i guess our muslim fellows are not going to answer you.because i know they have nothing to say.

 

[Lilyflower]

brother inJESUS,i guess our muslim fellows are not going to answer you.because i know they have nothing to say.

Blessings and peace

 

[morning_star777]

Blessings and peace

thanks friend. may lord jesus bless all of us

 

[planten]