Islamic prayer

[inJESUS]

Dear George Waters:

As far the corruption of the**New Testament’s **

books, what could be the best source for YOU, to know other than your Catholic Encyclopedia, which tells you this:

IV. TRANSMISSION OF THE TEXT [OF THE NEW TESTAMENT]

No book of ancient times has come down to us exactly as it left the hands of its author–all have been in some way altered. this alone is enough to question the quran cuz it applies perfectly to it.

the difference is that we believe in a God who keeps His Word.you believe in a not omnipotent deity coz he couldnt preserve his word as he said, or a liar cuz he did not fulfill his promise.
​

​

 

[inJESUS]

Dear George Waters:

As far the corruption of the**New Testament’s **

books, what could be the best source for YOU, to know other than your Catholic Encyclopedia, which tells you this:

IV. TRANSMISSION OF THE TEXT [OF THE NEW TESTAMENT]

No book of ancient times has come down to us exactly as it left the hands of its author–all have been in some way altered. The material conditions under which a book was spread before the invention of printing (1440), the little care of the copyists, correctors, and glossators for the text, so different from the desire of accuracy exhibited to-day, explain sufficiently the divergences we find between various manuscripts of the same work. To these causes may be added, in regard to the Scriptures, exegetical difficulties and dogmatical controversies. To exempt the scared writings from ordinary conditions a very special providence would have been necessary, and it has not been the will of God to exercise this providence. More than 150,000 different readings have been found in the older witnesses to the text of the New Testament– which in itself is a proof that Scriptures are not the only, nor the principal, means of revelation. In the concrete order of the present economy God had only to prevent any such alteration of the sacred texts as would put the Church in the moral necessity of announcing with certainty as the word of God what in reality was only a human utterance.
[CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: New Testament]](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14530a.htm#IV])

and why did you stop at this point in the article? why didn’t you quote as well:

Let us say, however, from the start, that the substantial tenor of the sacred text has not been altered, not withstanding the uncertainty which hangs over some more or less long and more or less important historical or dogmatical passages. Moreover–and this is very important–these alterations are not irremediable; we can at least very often, by studying the variants of the texts, eliminate the defective readings and thus re-establish the primitive text. This is the object of textual criticism.

 

[ronald]

hi, thank you for your and others’ answers to those who don’t believe Him. I cannot give as good answers as all of you have given to them. I just want to say to all of you in this forum that no one can come to Father’s house except through Jesus. He **himself ** said that He had many rooms for us in the house. What kind of Man who has the authority to say that? And I also believe the words from people who lived with jesus, not believe the words from people Hundreds year after. Finally i want to remind the Christians here, please remember not to hurt anyone while answering (like saying one a donkey). God loves us all, so why don’t we do the same. God Bless you and let’s be ready for His coming

inJESUS:

strange…it threatens us kaffir a thousand time with a billion repetitive verse but it fails to address such important issues…

but mohamad had privileges that apply only to him…like money and women. So you cannot immitate him a lot coz you are not as privileged as him.

is it great that millions recite what they don’t understand? is allah more happy cuz a muslim prays in arabic even if he understands nothing? so supplication is fine but prayer is not cuz allah’s preferred language is arabic…i see…am pretty sure allah was an arab

Anyway, allah was not very sure as to which direction muslims should pray…he started first to Jerusalem ( to please the jews and convince them) but later changed to Mecca…

 

[Reuben_J]

Cyber Knight:

Bukhari 1.660:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “Isn’t he who raises his head before the Imam afraid that Allah may transform his head into that of a donkey or his figure into that of a donkey?”

I’m not trying to be disrespectful. We also have Biblical verses that sure can tickle you too.

Just for the sake of understanding, would some Muslims here care to explain to us what’s this all about?

Thanks.

 

[Reuben_J]

inJESUS:

but mohamad had privileges that apply only to him…like money and women. So you cannot immitate him a lot coz you are not as privileged as him.

Exactly!!! I just remember. Pointed this out to a Muslim participant here sometimes back. It’s only Muhammad that is allowed to marry more than the maximum quota of four wives! This person replied that it was for the purpose of spreading Islam that Muhammad had to marry many wives. I didn’t asked him if that’s so, was it because of the multiplication? It’s observed that today Muslims’ birthrate is certainly high and this is one factor contributing to the rapid spread of Islam especially in term of population.

Back to the issue above. It’s certainly a contradiction to say that Muslims are to imitate him. They can’t and are not allowed to. At least not in all respects of life. Bad contradiction.

 

[ronald]

Sorry brother…i mean monkey not donkey. Ok, got to go coz already late in Bali now. Jesus loves us. Om Swastiastu.

I’m not trying to be disrespectful. We also have Biblical verses that sure can tickle you too.

Just for the sake of understanding, would some Muslims here care to explain to us what’s this all about?

Thanks.
[/quote]

 

[freedomm]

inJESUS:

did Uthman plagirize the quran as well and burnt all the original copies?

No.

Sayyidna 'Uthmaan (R.A), the third Caliph, was one of the most devoted companions of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH). And he was a Caliph of Theo-Democratic Islamic State and not a King or dictator. He restored the ORIGINAL recitation of the Holy Quran.
Durung the preparation of copies of the Holy Quran (meant for far centers of the Islamic State) there were so many companions and official Calligraphers of Prophet Muhamed (PBUH) and not to mention Sayyidna 'Ali (R.A), who was Prophet’s son-in-law who later became the Fourth Caliph after Sayyidna 'Uthmaan (R.A).

The copies that were asked to discard were not belonged to the Capital of Islamic state (the city of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH)-Madinah Munawwarah) but belonged to people lived in far cities/centers of the then Islamic state where some Arabs and non-Arabs after newly embracing Islam, wrote some copies according to their dialect and were reciting different than the Original revealed recitation.

So, you, instead of criticising, supposed to admire and praise Sayyidna Uthmaan (R.A) for retaining the ORIGINALITY of the Holy Quran.

inJESUS:

or maybe the people who added the vowels and marks later ?

The purpose of vowel signs/diacritical marks is an another remarkable acheivement and it was to help all non-Arabs in reading properly and retaining the precise revealed Arabic pronunciation because the Holy Quran is meant for whole mankind. Arabs even invent a new science, the Art of Reading called 'ilumul-Tajweed. Because of all these, today any Muslim from any country/race/language after learning th Tajweed, can recite the Holy Quran’s original revealed text in the same fashion as Arabs read/recite.

Then you have to remember that the Holy Quran is not just preserved through written manuscripts but also through MUTAWATIR (continuous) unbroken traditional chain of word-by-word memorization of the **whole Text ** of the **Holy Quran ** from the days of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) to our day.

inJESUS:

but were they able to find some verses in the belly of the goat that ate allah’s words as per little Aisha?

Not every narration/report that begins with the words “Qala Rasulullaahi…” is a Hadith. All reports/narrations from Hadith collections are scrutinized, checked, verified based on strict principles/criterion. Once a report/narration reached to the degree/level of certainity after passing through harsh scrutiny and check, only then it is accepted, in order not to attribute any falsehood to the personality of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) or Islam’s foundation.

Prior to Imam Bukhari’s collection of Hadith, obviously there were countless Muslims, Muslim scholars and Huffadh of the Holy Quran, who knew the Holy Quran by heart, as such there never was a dispute as to the authenticity of the Holy Quran’s text, as some non-Muslim orientalists of our period, devilishly try to create from their own.

On the contrary Muslims are proud to retain the Original Text as it is throughout the centuries. There is no other religious or non-relgious book on the face of this Earth, which is read/memorised word by word, continuously for 14 centuries without any break.

 

[freedomm]

And Jesus Christ despite being a 100% God and despite being a “100% man” at the same time and “a physical Begotten Son of God”, was not married at all???

Howcome God Almighty married to Blessed Virgin Mary in order His Only “Begotten” unique Son to be born…and then His Son never got married even at the age of 33. What prevented God’s only Son to not to be married?

And what kind of anointment, Mary Magdalene wanted to do to Jesus, when she went to see him after his alledged “Crucifixion”?

If Jesus was God then, what relation Blessed virgin Mary has with him after his birth?

If Jesus was not God, even then what relation Blessed virgin Mary has with him, because you believe that the Holy Spirit, Jesus and God Almighty share some kind of ONENESS, despite being three distinct persons?

If Jesus was merely a man, ‘a man approved of God’, even then what prevented him to get married just like any other Prophet of God or young man? What kind of an example you see in his unmarried life?

[Note: All the above questions are due to your Scriptures which are actually, in my view, corrupted and you don’t have authentic biography of Jesus Christ (PBUH). As such any objection to my question is actually directed towards your “Scriptures”.]

 

[Faith101]

strange…it threatens us kaffir a thousand time with a billion repetitive verse but it fails to address such important issues…

As I have already said, it addresses them. Allah tells us the importance of all of the things that I have desribed.

As for warning those who choose disbelief…just as Allah warns them over and over again, Allah also gives glad tidings over and over again to those who choose belief.

he started first to Jerusalem ( to please the jews and convince them) but later changed to Mecca…

Thanks, I missed this one. Another reason why the Kaaba is only a direction of prayer, and not an idol itself is because Muslims were ordered to face another direction first. If the Kaaba was something worthy of worship, then it wouldnt have been ignored like that.

 

[Faith101]

LilyM:

As if God speaks better or more fluently or more ‘divinely’ in one language as opposed to another, seriously! All human languages are just that - human inventions, God speaks to children as well, even before they’ve learned language. It’s this sort of literal slavish copying that makes me a bit suspicious of Islam. Mind you I’ve read one or two posts from devotees of the old Latin Mass who are almost as bad …

LilyM

God understands all languages, he hears even our silent heart whispers. I’ll try to explain again. The Quran was revealed in arabic…to us, it is God’s words…that he chose to reveal in Arabic. When I, a human being, try to translate these words into another language, then I add my own interpretation to it…because not all words can be exactly translated…right?

Most non-arab Muslims I know *know * what they are saying in prayer, because they learn what it means…its not that difficult. In every field you go into, you will need to learn a new vocabulary. Why is it such a big deal when it comes to learning something for the sake of God?

 

[Faith101]

Faith,
At least you tried to respond. So you admit the quran does not contain everything we need. It never says how to pray or even that we should do exactly as Muhammed did in prayer. There is no clear instruction on how to pray and even Muslims disagree on certain details. And why should we need a mere man, like Muhammed, to tell us how to pray? Muslims don’t need intercessors or clergy right?

Mohamed is God’s messenger. Chosen and directly guided by God. God Himself tells us, in the Quran, to follow the messenger. This is what we do.

As for the differences in prayer, they are so small, that you would probably have a hard time picking them out. Do you ever see the Muslims pray in Haj? Thats over 2 million people, from all over the world…can you pick out the differences?

Therefore, if you are really Muslim you don’t have to pray 5 times a day in a certain prescribed fashion. You just have to pray when you feel led to do so. And you can pray whichever way you like. If another Muslim says you are wrong and must do it some other way then you can ignore him. You don’t need anyone to tell you what to do.

You can pray, essentially, whenever you want. But a Muslim will be specifically asked about the 5 mandatory prayers.

What you mentioned above is exactly why we have and need a messenger who lived his life as a Muslim…and who God himself told us to follow…so that we dont have all these disagreements you just mentioned (when to pray, where to face, what way to pray, etc).

Even more importantly it should lead you to question the quran. If it is silent on such an important matter then maybe it really isn’t the greatest revelation. Maybe it is inadequate. Something to think about.

I understand your point. The Quran and the sunnah of the Prophet, peace be upon him, go hand in hand. The message and the messenger. Again, the Quran is not silent on these matters, it addresses them over and over and over again…but as to the details, well it leaves that to the messenger that GOD Himself told us to follow.

This may be confusing for you, and probably becaus i’m not the best at explaining things…but for me, its the greatest mercy that God would send us a message…and a human example that follows the message.

PS: Yes, I’ve read the quran

How did you come to the conclusion that Muslims regard Mohamed as divine after reading the Quran?

 

[Booklover]

freedomm:

Dear Cyber Knight:

• • • Continued - - - -

The denunciation of scribes and Pharisees ends with this lament over Jerusalem, which has repeatedly rejected and murdered those whom God has sent to her.

37 "**Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling! **

38 Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate.

39 I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’"

Note: According to The New american Bible:

Some manuscripts add a verse at or after Matthew 23:12 **“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You devour the houses of widows and, as a pretext, recite lengthy prayers. Because of this, you will receive a very severe condemnation.” **

Cf Mark 12:40; Luke 20:47. This “woe” is almost identical with Mark 12:40 and seems to be an interpolation derived from that text

["]http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew23.htm#foot9]]("http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew23.htm#foot9)

Now the question for you is why those:

The scribes who were the doctors of the law of Moses.

and
**The Pharisees **who were a precise set of men, making profession of a more exact observance of the law: and upon that account greatly esteemed among the people

,

are called by Jesus Christ as:

- hypocrites

- blind guides
- Blind fools
- You blind ones
- full of plunder
- self-indulged
**- full of dead **men’s bones
- every kind of filth
- evildoers.
- the children of those who murdered the prophets
​

- serpents
- brood of vipers–???

​

---

Here the key word is “BLIND”. What does it mean, Mr./Ms.Cyber Knight??

---

Freedomm, why must you always post so much at one time! Let me put you out of your misery, the reason Jesus said those things about the pharisees, is that they appeared pious on the surface, but were not really. They did everything for show, to be praised and to received adulation and they passed off a lot of manmade rituals as binding as the laws of God! Jesus could see right through their hypocrisy.

You had the answer right there in your post, but you’re too busy with your diatribes to even comprehend what you’re posting.

Vickie

 

[onesimplemind]

Faith101:

How did you come to the conclusion that Muslims regard Mohamed as divine after reading the Quran?

I don’t know about the divine part but he sure has a favored spot in the scheme of things…

Bukhari:V1B2N14 “The Prophet said, ‘None of you will have faith till he loves me more than his father, his children and all mankind.’”

Qur’an 33:57 “Those who speak negatively of Allah and His Apostle shall be cursed.”

Ishaq:233 “Allah’s Apostle: the Lord of the Muslims, Leader of the Allah Fearing, Messenger of the Lord of the Worlds, the Peerless and Unequalled.”

 

[Booklover]

Faith101:

The Quran tells us how important prayer is, how important modesty is, how important haj is…etc…but doesnt tell us exactly how to do most of these things. This is why Allah tells us that Muhammad is a beautiful model, and that we should follow him. In fact, Allah says that if you love Allah, then follow his messenger. Why? Because Mohamed is the Quran in action. When someone asked Aisha (Mohamed’s wife) about the character of theprophet, she replied that it was the Quran.

We obey his example because this is what Allah tells us to do.

As to Muslims praying however they want…well anyone can pray however they want…but we choose to worship God on His terms and not ours. As for praying in arabic, the prayers consist of reciting verses from the Quran, which was revealed in Arabic. It’s not a big deal, i think its great that all 1 billion of us pray the same exact way, reciting the same exact way…i think its a unity that no other religion has. Also, any supplication can be said in any language.

Again, you implied that Mohamed is divine…he is not, both the Quran and hadith make this clear. Have you ever read the Quran or the biography of the Prophet?

Hello Faith!

If the Quran does not tell you exactly how to pray, how do you know that your worshipping God on his terms?

Vickie

 

[George_Waters]

freedomm:

Dear George Waters:

As far the corruption of the**New Testament’s ** books, what could be the best source for YOU, to know other than your Catholic Encyclopedia, which tells you this:

IV. TRANSMISSION OF THE TEXT [OF THE NEW TESTAMENT]

No book of ancient times has come down to us exactly as it left the hands of its author–all have been in some way altered. The material conditions under which a book was spread before the invention of printing (1440), the little care of the copyists, correctors, and glossators for the text, so different from the desire of accuracy exhibited to-day, explain sufficiently the divergences we find between various manuscripts of the same work. To these causes may be added, in regard to the Scriptures, exegetical difficulties and dogmatical controversies. To exempt the scared writings from ordinary conditions a very special providence would have been necessary, and it has not been the will of God to exercise this providence. More than 150,000 different readings have been found in the older witnesses to the text of the New Testament– which in itself is a proof that Scriptures are not the only, nor the principal, means of revelation. In the concrete order of the present economy God had only to prevent any such alteration of the sacred texts as would put the Church in the moral necessity of announcing with certainty as the word of God what in reality was only a human utterance.
[CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: New Testament]](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14530a.htm#IV])

Since you (Catholics) still hold your Gopels as inspired Word of God/Holy Spirit, thus it makes sense to ask you or Mr./Ms. Cyber Knight, what he/she understood by the word** ‘blind’** or all those Seven or Eight WOES, reported to have “uttered” by Jesus Christ, because it is you who have a complete faith in your Gospels.

As far my view, I will answer it later in detail. First I want to hear from Mr./Ms. Cyber Knight.

So the Quran is altered as well then? But I guess you don’t believe the Catholic Encyclopedia (which you seem to believe is akin to a holy book) when it comes to the Quran so what we have here is more of the typical pick and choose.

 

[inJESUS]

So, you, instead of criticising, supposed to admire and praise Sayyidna Uthmaan (R.A) for retaining the ORIGINALITY of the Holy Quran.

:tsktsk: we’ll have a beautiful discussion of Uthman’s version some other day…we’ll open a thread for it later not to disturb this thread

The purpose of vowel signs/diacritical marks is an another remarkable acheivement and it was to help all non-Arabs in reading properly and retaining the precise revealed Arabic pronunciation because the Holy Quran is meant for whole mankind.

irrelevant…i did not ask WHY they were added…and WRONG coz even arabs cannot understand a word without vowels…trying to fool an arab speaking person eh?

Arabs even invent a new science, the Art of Reading

called 'ilumul-Tajweed. Because of all these, today any Muslim from any country/race/language after learning th Tajweed, can recite the Holy Quran’s original revealed text in the same fashion as Arabs read/recite. yes they learn how to “recite” the quran…but it has nothing to do with inserting vowels…muslim scholars themselves admitt that many verses can be read in a dozen way…so my question : are you sure that the millions of vowels and marks put are exactly what allah wants? no, muslim scholars admit it. And since it was humans who added them, and humans err, so no sane person can say that they might not have erred.

Then you have to remember that the Holy Quran is not just preserved through written manuscripts but also through MUTAWATIR (continuous) unbroken traditional chain of word-by-word memorization of the **whole Text **

of the **Holy Quran ** from the days of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) to our day. mmm but these hadith say that many verses were recited in different ways, sometimes adding , others deleting…and they say many verses were lost…and people forgot verses ecc…anyway, we’ll have a long discussion about the compilation and Uthman’s copy some other day.

Not every narration/report that begins with the words “Qala Rasulullaahi…” is a Hadith.

i know thats why i always quote sahih hadith like :

Narrated by Ibn Abbas: Umar said, ‘I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, ‘We do not find the Verses of the Rajm (stoning to death) in the Holy Book,’ and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajm be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession.’ Sufyan added, ‘I have memorized this narration in this way.’ Umar added, ‘Surely Allah’s Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajm, and so did we after him’” (Sahih Al Bukhari V8.B82.N816

It is reported in Sunan ibn Maajah (one of the six authentic Sunni books of ahaadith) that ‘Aisha’s (R) goat ate two of the verses of the Quran that were written on palm leafstalk.

On the contrary Muslims are proud to retain the Original Text as it is

throughout the centuries. There is no other religious or non-relgious book on the face of this Earth, which is read/memorised word by word, continuously for 14 centuries without any break. later on that.

 

[Muslim]

onesimplemind:

Faith101:

I don’t know about the divine part but he sure has a favored spot in the scheme of things…

Bukhari:V1B2N14 “The Prophet said, ‘None of you will have faith till he loves me more than his father, his children and all mankind.’”

Qur’an 33:57 “Those who speak negatively of Allah and His Apostle shall be cursed.”

Ishaq:233 “Allah’s Apostle: the Lord of the Muslims, Leader of the Allah Fearing, Messenger of the Lord of the Worlds, the Peerless and Unequalled.”

Allah’s Apostle included all the other Prophets as well…

 

[inJESUS]

Muslim:

onesimplemind:

Allah’s Apostle included all the other Prophets as well…

what?

 

[inJESUS]

Muslim:

onesimplemind:

Allah’s Apostle included all the other Prophets as well…

is arabic your native language muslim?

 

[LilyM]

Faith101:

LilyM

God understands all languages, he hears even our silent heart whispers. I’ll try to explain again. The Quran was revealed in arabic…to us, it is God’s words…that he chose to reveal in Arabic. When I, a human being, try to translate these words into another language, then I add my own interpretation to it…because not all words can be exactly translated…right?

Most non-arab Muslims I know *know * what they are saying in prayer, because they learn what it means…its not that difficult. In every field you go into, you will need to learn a new vocabulary. Why is it such a big deal when it comes to learning something for the sake of God?

They learn what it means? you mean they learn Arabic? does that mean that those who don’t learn Arabic or who learn it imperfectly are somehow worse Muslims because they lack the full understanding of God’s word? Rather I would say EVERY human language and EVERY human writing is an imperfect transmission of God’s knowledge.

I would rather think God works as he did in the Christian New Testament where the disciples of Jesus preach to a crowd of people of many nations and by God’s power all of the listeners hear them in their OWN languages equally well. After all, God put me in the country I’m in and gave me the language that I speak, and I don’t believe he prefers one language or nation to another.