Islamic Prophecy

[Angelos]

The core message is extremely simple:

Do what is good, do not do what is bad, and worship the one true God.

I think the problem is that you’re taking every single line devoted to that message, and trying to create complexity as to the fundamentals where there is none.

Taking scraps of a book that you have not read, and then saying “but what does this mean!?” is one way of claiming that something is confusing when in reality, it’s not all that complicated. You’re essentially asking Kadaveri to give you the whole book because you want to talk about one line, and then claiming that the whole book is unclear because you didn’t get all the meaning of that one line when it was out of context.

IMPO, it is rather natural that Christian minds be confused since Muslims delight in taking some verses in their Scripture out of context in order to prove Islamic superiority. What is worse, they claim that it is impossible to understand the Koran and know what certain verses really mean! They somehow avoid applying this rule of incomprehensibility whenever they capture a verse open to various interpretations and present it as a significant Islamic prophecy concerning future discoveries and/or scientific developments.

Angelos N.

 

[Booklover]

You know, calling people pests and posting from a hate-site is really not something I expected in my lifetime I would ever seen from someone witnessing Catholicism. But after visiting this site, I saw it so many times I really just couldn’t deny that being angry at those who disagree with Catholicism is a part of the religion.

In the first place just because the site disgrees with Islam does not make it a hate site! They see Islam as it really is!

I’ve seen these tactics used by Muslims all the time. I quoted a line from a very funny and true satire written by an ex-Muslim about these techniques. One thing I’m also finding out about Muslims is that they have absolutely no sense of humor, it’s the ones that leave Islam that do!

Here’s the link: Read it for yourself!

news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1146

Vickie

 

[Kadaveri]

Or how about we lighten up with a bit of Prophetic humour eh?

globalwebpost.com/farooqm/hadith_humor/hadith_laugh.html

 

[Booklover]

It would be a prime example of such tactics, if I had actually pointed out any problems with other religion’s books, but unfortunately you completely misunderstood my post.

Oh, didn’t you immediately bring up the Bible and accuse us of hypocrisy?

Vickie

 

[Kadaveri]

But in saying that there are metaphors and figurative language in the Bible was I pointing this out as a ‘problem’? No I wasn’t.

Hypocrisy is exactly what it is if a Christian were to say the Qur’an can’t be understood or that it isn’t true because it has some metaphors and figurative language in it, when their own book has far more. Whether they believe the Bible to be God’s word or words God inspired really is besides the point.

 

[George_Waters]

The core message is extremely simple:

Do what is good, do not do what is bad, and worship the one true God.

I think the problem is that you’re taking every single line devoted to that message, and trying to create complexity as to the fundamentals where there is none.

Taking scraps of a book that you have not read, and then saying “but what does this mean!?” is one way of claiming that something is confusing when in reality, it’s not all that complicated. You’re essentially asking Kadaveri to give you the whole book because you want to talk about one line, and then claiming that the whole book is unclear because you didn’t get all the meaning of that one line when it was out of context.

Presumptuous aren’t you? I have read the Quran, though I will admit that was years ago. CAIR sent me one last year, at my request, but dealing with Muslim apologist on this forum has forced me to conclude that if I don’t unquestioningly accept it all I will never understand and since I do not know Arabic I can’t trust the translation anyway, I have not re-read it.

I did not ask about one line at all. Where did you come up with that? I ask a simple question about the Quran, which in my experience is extremely hard for Muslims and Muslim apologist like you to ever give a straight forward and simple answer.

I will sincerely try one more time; if the Quran is the literal word of God and easy for everyone to understand regardless of gender, culture, education, etc. why is it that you must have an extensive knowledge of language, culture, etc., etc., etc., for this simple message to be understood?

If your “core message” is all Islam needs why so much minutia? Beside, we all know that “good” is a relative term and subject to individual interpretation (ask any homicide-bomber) and Islam is far more complicated than that.

Thanks for telling me what my problem is, too bad arrogant presumptuousness does not make a case.

 

[George_Waters]

You know, calling people pests and posting from a hate-site is really not something I expected in my lifetime I would ever seen from someone witnessing Catholicism. But after visiting this site, I saw it so many times I really just couldn’t deny that being angry at those who disagree with Catholicism is a part of the religion.

Would you like more than a few hate-sites from people witnessing for Islam?

 

[Booklover]

Presumptuous aren’t you? I have read the Quran, though I will admit that was years ago. CAIR sent me one last year, at my request, but dealing with Muslim apologist on this forum has forced me to conclude that if I don’t unquestioningly accept it all I will never understand and since I do not know Arabic I can’t trust the translation anyway, I have not re-read it.

I did not ask about one line at all. Where did you come up with that? I ask a simple question about the Quran, which in my experience is extremely hard for Muslims and Muslim apologist like you to ever give a straight forward and simple answer.

I will sincerely try one more time; if the Quran is the literal word of God and easy for everyone to understand regardless of gender, culture, education, etc. why is it that you must have an extensive knowledge of language, culture, etc., etc., etc., for this simple message to be understood?

If your “core message” is all Islam needs why so much minutia? Beside, we all know that “good” is a relative term and subject to individual interpretation (ask any homicide-bomber) and Islam is far more complicated than that.

Thanks for telling me what my problem is, too bad arrogant presumptuousness does not make a case.

Excellent post, George! Wow! :clapping:

Check out the debates at www.faithfreedom.com and you will see beating about the bush, but never any answers. It seems that you have to want to believe for it all to become clear!

Vickie

 

[pro_universal]

Presumptuous aren’t you? I have read the Quran, though I will admit that was years ago. CAIR sent me one last year, at my request, but dealing with Muslim apologist on this forum has forced me to conclude that if I don’t unquestioningly accept it all I will never understand and since I do not know Arabic I can’t trust the translation anyway, I have not re-read it.

I did not ask about one line at all. Where did you come up with that? I ask a simple question about the Quran, which in my experience is extremely hard for Muslims and Muslim apologist like you to ever give a straight forward and simple answer.

I will sincerely try one more time; if the Quran is the literal word of God and easy for everyone to understand regardless of gender, culture, education, etc. why is it that you must have an extensive knowledge of language, culture, etc., etc., etc., for this simple message to be understood?

If your “core message” is all Islam needs why so much minutia? Beside, we all know that “good” is a relative term and subject to individual interpretation (ask any homicide-bomber) and Islam is far more complicated than that.

Thanks for telling me what my problem is, too bad arrogant presumptuousness does not make a case.

My position remains the same on this. You’re accusing the book of being unclear because you have to know something to read it-that’s just silly.

You have to know how to read to read a book, and you also have to know what all the individual words mean. Beyond that, you can debate the finer points…but it’s really not that complicated.

Yes, good is relatively vague as a term. But if you read the examples of good in the Quran, it’s a pretty common-sense version (kind of like what Jesus says about good in the gospels.) Help the poor, say your prayers, and don’t cheat or injure others, etc.

You do not need to know all about Arab culture to understand that message from reading the Quran. If people are taking single lines of text and confusing the meaning, however, some knowledge will help you to explain why that twisted reading is wrong.

The fact that some people will not read the book carefully, won’t read it much at all, or want to argue about lines when the last time they read it was years ago, does not mean the book is unclear. Think of the US constitution as an example…it’s pretty plainly written, but if you want to, you can spend your whole life arguing about what it means.

That doesn’t change the fact that it’s actually not that complicated, in the end.

 

[George_Waters]

It would be a prime example of such tactics, if I had actually pointed out any problems with other religion’s books, but unfortunately you completely misunderstood my post.

And George, that last post of mine wasn’t directed towards you personally but at the argument used by the writer of the article on the faithfreedom website. To answer your question, I’d firstly say that the original premises isn’t correct and that you don’t need a vast array of knowledge to read and understand the Qur’an. There are some minor things that would need clarifying for some verses to be understood, like 53:19-21 for example, without knowing that Lat, 'Uzza and Manat were Pagan deities of the Meccans those verses wouldn’t make much sense, but for the most part the Qur’an can be read and understood. Even someone who knews virtually nothing about religion could read the Qur’an and understand what it’s message was, i.e. There is only one God so believe in Him and worship Him only, God sends Prophets to us to guide us to the right way, all people will be judged at the end of time, Heaven and Hell are real, give prayers to God, give charity, feed the poor, embrace the good, forbid the evil. All very simple concepts that are repeated over and over again throughout the entire book.

Stuff like this ‘hearts’ nonsense only really crop up when people go deliberately looking to find anything that could be perceived as ‘wrong’ in the book instead of just trying to read and understand it. I’ve honestly never known of anyone having a problem with the Qur’an using the heart as a symbol of one’s deepest conscience; especially since the metaphor is utilised in the English language (they are hard-hearted, I love you with all my heart, accept Jesus Christ into your heart etc…) in a quite similar manner.

Thank you for your answer. I can not say I agree that with your assessment about my premise, but I do appreciate your answer. I have had some good discussions with Muslim members on this forum. Unfortunately there have been many bad Muslim apologist, some Muslim, some claiming they are not, that do not foster good discussion.

Thank you.

 

[George_Waters]

My position remains the same on this. You’re accusing the book of being unclear because you have to know something to read it-that’s just silly.

You have to know how to read to read a book, and you also have to know what all the individual words mean. Beyond that, you can debate the finer points…but it’s really not that complicated.

Yes, good is relatively vague as a term. But if you read the examples of good in the Quran, it’s a pretty common-sense version (kind of like what Jesus says about good in the gospels.) Help the poor, say your prayers, and don’t cheat or injure others, etc.

You do not need to know all about Arab culture to understand that message from reading the Quran. If people are taking single lines of text and confusing the meaning, however, some knowledge will help you to explain why that twisted reading is wrong.

The fact that some people will not read the book carefully, won’t read it much at all, or want to argue about lines when the last time they read it was years ago, does not mean the book is unclear. Think of the US constitution as an example…it’s pretty plainly written, but if you want to, you can spend your whole life arguing about what it means.

That doesn’t change the fact that it’s actually not that complicated, in the end.

Thanks, for admitting your presumption was wrong… oh, wait you didn’t! Do you ever? (Sorry, I couldn’t resist. Sometimes people just make it too easy, forgive me.)

I also have never claimed the Quran is simple to understand. I have been told repeatedly it is though the evidence does not support that assertion. I was just curious, from a Muslim perspective, why the Quran is so easy to understand when Muslim’s can’t (won’t?) agree on the “finer points” as you put it. Thanks for answering.

Good… yeah, unfortunately Mohammed doesn’t make a real good case for good does he? Want to talk about Jesus?

Unfortunately for Islam what Muslims do speaks far, far louder then what they say or what they claim the Quran met to say. And don’t bring up then events of several centuries past to justify current crimes, that is no excuse and we all know it. And before you talk about bad Christians this decade, I have a button on my jacket that asks God to protect me from His followers!

 

[pro_universal]

Thanks, for admitting your presumption was wrong… oh, wait you didn’t! Do you ever? (Sorry, I couldn’t resist. Sometimes people just make it too easy, forgive me.)

What presumption are we talking about here?

I also have never claimed the Quran is simple to understand. I have been told repeatedly it is though the evidence does not support that assertion.

Well, that’s precisely what I posted on. Your assertions as to what makes it unclear, for example, that you need extensive knowledge of Arabian culture to read it…are really the same thing as saying “You need to know what the words mean to read the book.” If you know what every single word means, it’s really not that tough.

Good… yeah, unfortunately Mohammed doesn’t make a real good case for good does he? Want to talk about Jesus?

Maybe you don’t think so, but when’s the last time you read a biography of Muhammad?

 

[George_Waters]

What presumption are we talking about here?

Well, that’s precisely what I posted on. Your assertions as to what makes it unclear, for example, that you need extensive knowledge of Arabian culture to read it…are really the same thing as saying “You need to know what the words mean to read the book.” If you know what every single word means, it’s really not that tough.

Maybe you don’t think so, but when’s the last time you read a biography of Muhammad?

The presumption that I had not read the Quran. I have read the Quran. Remember what they say about assuming Pro! Though this didn’t make me anything!

Unfortunately Pro, every time I try to discuss the Quran with a Muslim if I do not whole-heartedly (that one’s for you Kadaveri and unquestioningly believe everything it says then I am told it is because I do not wish to believe or that I do not understand this, that and everything else.

Besides, I have to question my desire to wish to believe. I deal with things all the time that I do not wish to believe, but that the evidence supports. And I try very hard not to refuse belief or dismiss things out of hand, but that is what I am accused of when it comes to Islam. If I don’t believe it is my failing, not Islam’s. But, maybe you are right; maybe the Quran is really that simple and is really just a poorly written justification to support a petty warlord.

I won’t even go into reading biographies with you because a) it has not been recently that I read a biography about Mohammed (I probably read it and the Quran before you were in school), b) I am sure you would not approve of the version I read anyway and c) I don’t believe everything people claim and don’t unquestioningly believe everything I read about anything including Islam so I must be hard-hearted and do not wish to believe.

 

[pro_universal]

The presumption that I had not read the Quran. I have read the Quran. Remember what they say about assuming Pro! Though this didn’t make me anything!

Okay, what you said was “I read it years ago and don’t really remember.” That is the same thing as having not read it-if it’s not in your mind, there’s no point in talking about what is or isn’t in the book.

Unfortunately Pro, every time I try to discuss the Quran with a Muslim if I do not whole-heartedly (that one’s for you Kadaveri and unquestioningly believe everything it says then I am told it is because I do not wish to believe or that I do not understand this, that and everything else.

Maybe that’s because you are talking with Muslims who believe it. What has that got to do with understanding the book itself?

If I don’t believe it is my failing, not Islam’s. But, maybe you are right; maybe the Quran is really that simple and is really just a poorly written justification to support a petty warlord.

Okay, I see that you’re trying to weave insults to the Islamic holy text into this, but I don’t see how it’s relevant. Are you hoping I’ll take it personally and feel offended if you say bad things about the Quran? What was the point of that?

I won’t even go into reading biographies with you because a) it has not been recently that I read a biography about Mohammed (I probably read it and the Quran before you were in school),

Okay, then surely you aren’t well equipped to discuss the text or the history of Muhammad’s life critically at this point, right?

So why do it? Why not spend your time reading about Muhammad and rereading the Quran, before arguing about what it means and what Muhammad did with others?

b) I am sure you would not approve of the version I read anyway and c) I don’t believe everything people claim and don’t unquestioningly believe everything I read about anything including Islam so I must be hard-hearted and do not wish to believe.

Again, to discuss what the book means, you have to know what it says. And to make claims about what Muhammad did in his life, you’d have to actually know about his life…

Why is this so controversial?

 

[cestusdei]

The quran is quite clear. Especially when it comes to killing non-muslims. That’s the problem. It is to clear.

 

[pro_universal]

The quran is quite clear. Especially when it comes to killing non-muslims. That’s the problem. It is to clear.

How is that a problem?

I’ve read these Surahs repeatedly now that everyone quotes to “prove” that the Quran commands this. I don’t think the book could be any more crystal clear than it is: You do not attack people who are not attacking you.

 

[cestusdei]

pro, muslims see everything as an attack. Disagree with them, draw a picture they don’t like, tell them about Jesus, demand equal rights, ask them to not beat women, demand freedom of religion, refuse to pay jizya, refuse to become muslim, be a muslim convert to Christianity, the list goes on and on.

In fact jihad states that you give your non-muslim neighbor the choice of conversion, dhimmitude, or war. Nothing in there about living in peace and leaving them alone. Your religion demands violence against others on an ongoing basis.

 

[pro_universal]

cestusdei,

The Quran is pretty explicit about being peaceful to your neighbors. It’s a most repeated theme-don’t harm people who haven’t harmed you.

I want an honest answer: Have you ever actually read the Quran?

 

[cestusdei]

Oh that’s why muslims rode out of the desert and attacked the Byzantines! They were just wanting to borrow some flour and the Byzantines misunderstood. Now I get it. And the destruction of Constantinople was really just a practical joke! Very amusing. What a sense of humor muslims have. And 911? That was really just the muslim way of telling us how much they love us. Gee, how could I have missed that message.

Pro, don’t peddle this garbage here. No one buys it. I have read the quran which is why you know what I say is true.

 

[pro_universal]

Oh that’s why muslims rode out of the desert and attacked the Byzantines! They were just wanting to borrow some flour and the Byzantines misunderstood. Now I get it. And the destruction of Constantinople was really just a practical joke! Very amusing. What a sense of humor muslims have. And 911? That was really just the muslim way of telling us how much they love us. Gee, how could I have missed that message.

Pro, don’t peddle this garbage here. No one buys it. I have read the quran which is why you know what I say is true.

I certainly don’t recognize your claims about the Quran from my own reading of it, that’s for sure. It says over and over-restraint, moderation, and peaceful relations with those around you. It’s repetitive in those exhortations.

Constantinople was destroyed by Christians, not Muslims. You do realize that, right? It probably would not have fallen ever if it hadn’t been sacked and had its relatively decent social systems replaced with Latin (ie, barbarian European) ones.