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George_Waters
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I concur. Everything I have found supports what Valke2 has stated.
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Valke2
Guest
It is not which scripture is more scientifically accurate that interests me. Neither the Torah, the Christian Bible or the Quran is a blueprint for rocket science. The question that is more relevant to me, is, "is the world better because of my religious beliefs? Is my scripture a springboard for life, for a way to God? Or is it a springboard for idolatry – for the stultifying of beliefs to such a degree that anyone who does not embrace them is my enemy?
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Booklover
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Angelos
Guest
Could you please show me where the verse says that Pharaoh’s body will be made a sign?
Actually, I would suggest YOU read the verses carefully. Below are two different translations:
10: 92 But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee.
10: 92 This day shall We save thee in thy body, that thou mayest be a Sign to those who come after thee!
Evidently, Mohammed’s scribes referred to Pharaoh’s fame and
defeat as the SIGN for mighty unbelievers’ inevitable destruction! Nothing about his lost or discovered body!
Please post the Koran verse that says Pharaoh’s BODY will be made a sign for mankind so that we can finish this argument in a second
Peace,
Angelos
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Valke2
Guest
Now that makes sense. Are you saying that pharoah’s life was spared because he’s return in defeat would be a greater sign than his death?Could you please show me where the verse says that Pharaoh’s body will be made a sign?
Actually, I would suggest YOU read the verses carefully. Below are two different translations:
10: 92 But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee.
10: 92 This day shall We save thee in thy body, that thou mayest be a Sign to those who come after thee!
Evidently, Mohammed’s scribes referred to Pharaoh’s fame and
defeat as the SIGN for mighty unbelievers’ inevitable destruction! Nothing about his lost or discovered body!
Please post the Koran verse that says Pharaoh’s BODY will be made a sign for mankind so that we can finish this argument in a second
Peace,
Angelos
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hamba2han
Guest
I just realised that no matter what evidence I or anyone else puts forward in support of the view that Merneptah was the Pharaoh of the Exodus, it will still not be enough to satisfy those who choose not to believe.
Anyhow, like I mentioned previously, based on historical evidence, there are only a few candidates for selecting who among them was really the Pharaoh of the Exodus.
Since all of their bodies have been discovered, the thing to bear in mind here is that if NONE of these candidates show any signs on their bodies which are consistent with the manner of death suffered by the Pharaoh as described in scriptures, then the next logical assumption is that the Exodus did not really happen at all.
Atheists would have no problem at all in disbelieving the story of the Exodus altogether and there is therefore little reason for them to accept that Merneptah was indeed the Pharaoh of the Exodus despite all the findings from the forensic examination performed by Dr. Bucaille and his team which support this conclusion.
However for believing Christians and Jews – Are you sure that you too would wish to go down this same road of disbelief which ultimately would deny the occurence of the Exodus?
Anyhow, like I mentioned previously, based on historical evidence, there are only a few candidates for selecting who among them was really the Pharaoh of the Exodus.
Since all of their bodies have been discovered, the thing to bear in mind here is that if NONE of these candidates show any signs on their bodies which are consistent with the manner of death suffered by the Pharaoh as described in scriptures, then the next logical assumption is that the Exodus did not really happen at all.
Atheists would have no problem at all in disbelieving the story of the Exodus altogether and there is therefore little reason for them to accept that Merneptah was indeed the Pharaoh of the Exodus despite all the findings from the forensic examination performed by Dr. Bucaille and his team which support this conclusion.
However for believing Christians and Jews – Are you sure that you too would wish to go down this same road of disbelief which ultimately would deny the occurence of the Exodus?
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Angelos
Guest
This is how I interpret the SIGN in the verse.
Unsurprisingly, that surah (chapter) recurrently describes what disbelievers always do when the cold hands of death grip them:
10: 12 And if misfortune touch a man he crieth unto Us, (while reclining) on his side, or sitting or standing, but when We have relieved him of the misfortune he goeth his way as though he had not cried unto Us because of a misfortune that afflicted him.
Another verse relates something similar that happened to Pharaoh:
10: 22 He it is Who maketh you to go on the land and the sea till, when ye are in the ships and they sail with them with a fair breeze and they are glad therein, a storm- wind reacheth them and the wave cometh unto them from every side and they deem that they are overwhelmed therein; (then) they cry unto Allah, making their faith pure for Him only: If Thou *deliver *us from this, we truly will be of the thankful.
10: 96-97 Lo! those for whom the word of thy Lord (concerning sinners) hath effect will not believe, Though every token come unto them, till they see the painful doom.
In short, Mohammed regarded Pharaoh as one of the best examples for mighty rulers that believed on the verge of death only to stave off the doom. Pharaoh’s supposed conversion to Islam was meant to be the SIGN of Allah and believers’ victory.
Shalom,
Angelos N.
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Angelos
Guest
How can you still claim that it is possible to distinguish the Pharaoh of Moses’ childhood from that of the Exodus whilst your very Scripture teaches that there was but ONE Pharaoh in Egyptian history?
Angelos N.
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George_Waters
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That would make sense. I like that version!
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George_Waters
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hamba2han,
The choice to believe or not to believe is not the only factor. If someone is not willing to believe then you are correct, no evidence will sway them. However if someone is willing to believe, but the evidence does not support that belief then they will not believe. That is due to a lack of compelling evidence, not a lack of desire to believe.
The attitude that I must accept things that the evidence does not support was one thing I did not like about Islam when I considered it for my own faith back in the mid-eighties. I was willing to believe, but the evidence was lacking (to me) and not compelling enough for me to accept the belief.
I saw a program on Nova awhile back and I am not so sure all the royal mummies have been found. Would you kindly cite your source that all the pharaoh’s remains have been discovered? Thanks.
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Montalban
Guest
You’ve chosen to believe. You’re working on a prori.
You have a tourist site mentioning they found a king. He might be the one from the Book of Exodus.
Even your star witness, a paid-up employee of an Islamic state examined two bodies and says one might be one particular king. Your words! So he’s not even sure that a particular body is that of a particular king, who may not even be the king mentioned in Exodus.
Why was this forensic team lead by a doctor who is not a forensic specialist? (as far as I know he is not). You then have a person who has a vested interest in the promotion of Islamic ‘science’ leading a science team to determine whether or not his faith in Islamic science is true or not.
This just is not convincing stuff.
Or that they don’t have the real body of a Pharaoh. It’s been known that bodies get replaced. I believe it was around the time of Richard II that they lost a royal body in the Thames and the people transporting it simply replaced it with another body. They did so because it was easier than loosing their own heads.
Oddly enough you seem to think it is more palatable for Christians and Jews to believe the Koran!
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jack_hawkins
Guest
yes you have posited this before, voluntary blindness - is this your fallback position when you talk rubbish that people don’t accept?
that statement fails the test of falsifiability
and in fact my argument is with your “imaginative” interpretation of the Koran and the physical evidence, not with the identity of the cadaver
your cognitive distortion allows you very conveniently to carry on believing you are right and that we are evil kufrs mocking Islam - result!
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hamba2han
Guest
You are getting confused by relying only on the English tanslations of the Qur’an.Please post the Koran verse that says Pharaoh’s BODY will be made a sign for mankind so that we can finish this argument in a second
Here is the much more accurate transliteration of verse 10:92:
Faalyawma nunajjeeka bibadanika litakoona liman khalfaka ayatan wainna katheeran mina alnnasi AAan ayatina laghafiloona
Notice the word ‘bibadinaka’ in the verse?.. That means lifeless body.
And for all on these boards who still do not want to believe that Merneptah was the likely Pharoah of the Exodus, I do not think there is anything more that I can add to support this view.
In matters of history, deciding on what we accept as being true is after all largely a matter of faith anyway.
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Ella
Guest
I’m really surprised that Pro didn’t tell us whether or not he believes your theory about the mummy’s identity.
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George_Waters
Guest
That would be contributing to the discussion.
I wonder if there are any other Islamic prophecies we can discuss. It seems the discussion about Merenptah has really been tapped out and I have enjoyed this thread, well most of it.
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Angelos
Guest
What if BIBADANIKA really means lifeless body (corpse) as you are claiming? The use of this word does not prove that Allah made Pharaoh’s CORPSE a sign for mankind! If what you assert were true, the verse would read:
We shall save you in the body today so that YOUR BODY may become a sign for those coming after you …
Further, I cannot see in that verse any word implying the preservation of the corpse or hinting at the temporary loss and future discovery of the lifeless body.
You are getting confused by relying on the alluring but baseless interpretations of some Muslim scholars that insist on perverting the Koran.
(I still wonder when your scientists will find the man appointed by Allah another SIGN in 002: 259
)Peace,
Angelos N.
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Booklover
Guest
Very true since your “proof” is “simply wanting to believe” it
This has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I’ve ever read and more proof that Islam is totally devoid of reason and simply based on blind faith! So for example, according to what you’ve just said, since the sack of Constantinople in 1204 was a heinous act by the crusaders, we should ignore all historical facts and claim it never happened, and furthermore that it was just a lie concocted by the Orthodox to make the Catholics look bad!
You see how wacky that is?:whacky:
No wonder how many times someone brings up all the evil deeds that Muhammad did for instance, Muslims continue to ignore the evidence and continue to believe that he was the best man that ever lived and THE model for all mankind!
Vickie
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Booklover
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Hi George! How about the coming of the Mahdi? I’d like to hear what Muslims have to say about that.That would be contributing to the discussion.
I wonder if there are any other Islamic prophecies we can discuss. It seems the discussion about Merenptah has really been tapped out and I have enjoyed this thread, well most of it.
Vickie
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George_Waters
Guest
That would be interesting. Anyone like to start?
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hamba2han
Guest
To those who are asking for more proof that the body is really that of the Pharaoh of the Exodus, let me ask you this question:
Can you show me proof that the Exodus really happened?
Anyone who believes in the Exodus and the parting of the sea is basing his belief on faith alone because as far as I know, there are no facts to prove that it really happened according to the way scriptures describe it or that there is any truth to the story at all.
Like I said, deciding on what we accept as historical truth is largely a matter of faith.
This sign of the Pharaoh’s body is only for those who believe… and it helps that there is forensic and scientific evidence to back up this belief that Merneptah is indeed the Pharaoh of the Exodus.
Those who refuse to believe this evidence from Dr. Bucaille and his forensic team should instead focus their efforts on finding evidence of their own that the Exodus really did happen to begin with.
Can you show me proof that the Exodus really happened?
Anyone who believes in the Exodus and the parting of the sea is basing his belief on faith alone because as far as I know, there are no facts to prove that it really happened according to the way scriptures describe it or that there is any truth to the story at all.
Like I said, deciding on what we accept as historical truth is largely a matter of faith.
This sign of the Pharaoh’s body is only for those who believe… and it helps that there is forensic and scientific evidence to back up this belief that Merneptah is indeed the Pharaoh of the Exodus.
Those who refuse to believe this evidence from Dr. Bucaille and his forensic team should instead focus their efforts on finding evidence of their own that the Exodus really did happen to begin with.
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