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George_Waters
Guest
Well I would like to know more about Mahdi. Any Muslims like to fill me in before I Google it?
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hamba2han
Guest
This is not really a prophecy but more of an affirmation from the Qur’an.
006:035
And if their turning away is hard on you, then if you can seek an opening (to go down) into the earth or a ladder (to ascend up) to heaven so that you should bring them a sign and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have gathered them all on guidance, therefore be not of the ignorant
In other words, it does not matter what signs are shown to them, those who choose not to believe will never be satisfied by the truth of the Qur’an.
Correct guidance is only given to those who choose to believe and have Taqwa i.e. fear of Allah:
041:044
Had We sent this as a Qur’an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said: “Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?” Say: "It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes): They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!"
006:035
And if their turning away is hard on you, then if you can seek an opening (to go down) into the earth or a ladder (to ascend up) to heaven so that you should bring them a sign and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have gathered them all on guidance, therefore be not of the ignorant
In other words, it does not matter what signs are shown to them, those who choose not to believe will never be satisfied by the truth of the Qur’an.
Correct guidance is only given to those who choose to believe and have Taqwa i.e. fear of Allah:
041:044
Had We sent this as a Qur’an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said: “Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?” Say: "It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes): They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!"
C
cestusdei
Guest
Some people choose not to believe the Bible. It doesn’t matter what signs are given. Guidance is only given to those who choose to believe it. Tautology anyone?
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hamba2han
Guest
It is not Muslims who have chosen not to believe what the Psalms clearly says about the fate of Pharaoh of the Exodus.
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Booklover
Guest
Did you even bother to read what George posted on #249? Here is what he said:
"The choice to believe or not to believe is not the only factor. If someone is not willing to believe then you are correct, no evidence will sway them. However if someone is willing to believe, but the evidence does not support that belief then they will not believe. That is due to a lack of compelling evidence, not a lack of desire to believe.
The attitude that I must accept things that the evidence does not support was one thing I did not like about Islam when I considered it for my own faith back in the mid-eighties. I was willing to believe, but the evidence was lacking (to me) and not compelling enough for me to accept the belief."
The difference is that you choose to believe without any proof! Believing in something because you want it to be true, does not make it so!
Vickie
I will ask again: Why would God state that the stars were created as missiles to throw at the jinns?
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Booklover
Guest
The Bible nowhere mentions the name of the pharaoh of the Exodus, but Bible students have always been curious as to who he was. No doubt, some Christians will be wary of trying to discover something the Bible has not clearly revealed; but in studying this question one can come away with his faith increased in the Bible as the unerring word of God. Although the Bible does not specifically name the pharaoh of the Exodus, enough data is supplied for us to be relatively sure who he was.
Admittedly, there are two schools of thought concerning the date of the Exodus (i.e., the early date and late date theories). Proponents of the late date theory (1290 B.C.) are clearly in the majority, but they reject clear Biblical statements with reference to the date of the Exodus. Therefore their arguments in favor of a particular pharaoh will not be considered in this article.
In I Kings 6:1 the Scriptures say: “And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Zif, which is the second month that he began to build the house of the Lord.” One can readily see that the times for both the Exodus and the beginning of the Temple have been specifically stated in God’s Word. Scholars have identified the fourth year of Solomon’s reign as 966 B.C. (Gleason, A Survey of Old Testamsnt Introduction, 1974, p. 223). Using this 966 B.C. date, we find that the Exodus took place in 1445 B.C. Now, if this information is correct, the Exodus occurred in the third year of the reign of the pharaoh Amenhotep II.
Before concluding that Amenhotep II was, indeed, the pharaoh of the Exodus, we will need to study further other evidence that can be presented. For instance, when comparing Exodus 7:7 with Acts 7:23, we learn that Moses was in Midian approximately forty years. Assuming the pharaohs mentioned in Exodus 1:8, 22 and 2:23 are all the same person, he would have had to reign for over forty years. Amenhotep’s predecessor, Thutmose III, is the only pharaoh within the time specified in I Kings 6:1 who reigned long enough (54 years) to have been on the throne at the time of Moses’ flight and to die shortly before his return to Egypt. This would make Thutmose III the pharaoh of the Oppression and Amenhotep II the pharaoh of the Exodus.
cont.
Admittedly, there are two schools of thought concerning the date of the Exodus (i.e., the early date and late date theories). Proponents of the late date theory (1290 B.C.) are clearly in the majority, but they reject clear Biblical statements with reference to the date of the Exodus. Therefore their arguments in favor of a particular pharaoh will not be considered in this article.
In I Kings 6:1 the Scriptures say: “And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Zif, which is the second month that he began to build the house of the Lord.” One can readily see that the times for both the Exodus and the beginning of the Temple have been specifically stated in God’s Word. Scholars have identified the fourth year of Solomon’s reign as 966 B.C. (Gleason, A Survey of Old Testamsnt Introduction, 1974, p. 223). Using this 966 B.C. date, we find that the Exodus took place in 1445 B.C. Now, if this information is correct, the Exodus occurred in the third year of the reign of the pharaoh Amenhotep II.
Before concluding that Amenhotep II was, indeed, the pharaoh of the Exodus, we will need to study further other evidence that can be presented. For instance, when comparing Exodus 7:7 with Acts 7:23, we learn that Moses was in Midian approximately forty years. Assuming the pharaohs mentioned in Exodus 1:8, 22 and 2:23 are all the same person, he would have had to reign for over forty years. Amenhotep’s predecessor, Thutmose III, is the only pharaoh within the time specified in I Kings 6:1 who reigned long enough (54 years) to have been on the throne at the time of Moses’ flight and to die shortly before his return to Egypt. This would make Thutmose III the pharaoh of the Oppression and Amenhotep II the pharaoh of the Exodus.
cont.
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hamba2han
Guest
This is not really the topic of this thread as it concerns the world of the jinn.
However, if you really wish to know the answer to your question, then I suggest that you read the following article:
islamawareness.net/Jinn/world.html
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Booklover
Guest
cont.
History tells us that for several years after 1445 B.C. Amenhotep II was unable to carry out any invasions or extensive military operations. This would seem like very strange behavior for a pharaoh who hoped to equal his father’s record of no less than seventeen military campaigns in nineteen years. But this is exactly what one would expect from a pharaoh who had lost almost all his cavalry, chariotry, and army at the Red Sea (Exodus 14:23, 27-30).
Furthermore, we learn from the Dream Stela of Thutmose IV, son of Amenhotep II, that he was not the legitimate successor to the throne (J.B. Pritchard (ed.), Ancient Near-Eastern Texts, p. 449). This means that Thutmose IV was not the firstborn son, who would have been the legitimate heir. The firstborn son of Amenhotep II had evidently died prior to taking the throne of Egypt. This would agree with Exodus 12:29 which says the pharaoh’s first-born son was killed during the Passover.
If the Exodus did take place in 1445 B.C., forty years of wilderness wandering would bring us to 1405 B.C. for the destruction of Jericho. Interestingly enough, John Garstang, who excavated the site of ancient Jericho (city “D” in his survey), came to the conclusion that the destruction of the city took place around 1400 B.C. (Garstang, The Story of Jericho, 1948, p. 122). He also concluded that the walls of the city toppled outward, which would compare favorably with Joshua 6:20.
Scholars have been fascinated by a revolutionary religious doctrine which developed shortly after 1445 B.C. that threatened to sweep away the theological dogmas of centuries. These scholars have credited Amenhotep IV, great grandson of Amenhotep II, with founding the religious concept of Monotheism (the idea that there is only one God). The cult of Aton set forth this idea to the Egyptian people and scholars have mistakenly credited this idea to the Egyptians. But it does not seem unusual to me that a people who had been so influenced by the one God of Moses would try to worship the God that had so convincingly defeated their gods. A continually increasing body of evidence indicates that this cult of Aton had its beginning in the reign of Thutmose IV, son of Amenhotep II, pharaoh of the Exodus.
Although the final verdict is not yet in, we can be reasonably sure that Amenhotep II was the pharaoh of the Exodus.
allanturner.com/pharaoh.html
Vickie
History tells us that for several years after 1445 B.C. Amenhotep II was unable to carry out any invasions or extensive military operations. This would seem like very strange behavior for a pharaoh who hoped to equal his father’s record of no less than seventeen military campaigns in nineteen years. But this is exactly what one would expect from a pharaoh who had lost almost all his cavalry, chariotry, and army at the Red Sea (Exodus 14:23, 27-30).
Furthermore, we learn from the Dream Stela of Thutmose IV, son of Amenhotep II, that he was not the legitimate successor to the throne (J.B. Pritchard (ed.), Ancient Near-Eastern Texts, p. 449). This means that Thutmose IV was not the firstborn son, who would have been the legitimate heir. The firstborn son of Amenhotep II had evidently died prior to taking the throne of Egypt. This would agree with Exodus 12:29 which says the pharaoh’s first-born son was killed during the Passover.
If the Exodus did take place in 1445 B.C., forty years of wilderness wandering would bring us to 1405 B.C. for the destruction of Jericho. Interestingly enough, John Garstang, who excavated the site of ancient Jericho (city “D” in his survey), came to the conclusion that the destruction of the city took place around 1400 B.C. (Garstang, The Story of Jericho, 1948, p. 122). He also concluded that the walls of the city toppled outward, which would compare favorably with Joshua 6:20.
Scholars have been fascinated by a revolutionary religious doctrine which developed shortly after 1445 B.C. that threatened to sweep away the theological dogmas of centuries. These scholars have credited Amenhotep IV, great grandson of Amenhotep II, with founding the religious concept of Monotheism (the idea that there is only one God). The cult of Aton set forth this idea to the Egyptian people and scholars have mistakenly credited this idea to the Egyptians. But it does not seem unusual to me that a people who had been so influenced by the one God of Moses would try to worship the God that had so convincingly defeated their gods. A continually increasing body of evidence indicates that this cult of Aton had its beginning in the reign of Thutmose IV, son of Amenhotep II, pharaoh of the Exodus.
Although the final verdict is not yet in, we can be reasonably sure that Amenhotep II was the pharaoh of the Exodus.
allanturner.com/pharaoh.html
Vickie
C
cestusdei
Guest
Maybe you will believe then what the Bible says about Jesus death and resurrection?
B
Booklover
Guest
Yes, it does matter since you want us to believe that the Quran is the LITERAL word of God! Since we know that the stars were not created for that purpose, why would God say something so absurd?
Vickie
H
hamba2han
Guest
I have realised that determining the identity of the Pharaoh of Exodus is no longer the main issue here.
The real question that should be answered is:
Why don’t Christians and Jews believe what the Psalms says about the fate of the Pharaoh?
*
The Psalms 106:11*
And the waters covered their enemies:
there was not one of them left.
*
The Psalms 136:15*
but overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea:
The real question that should be answered is:
Why don’t Christians and Jews believe what the Psalms says about the fate of the Pharaoh?
*
The Psalms 106:11*
And the waters covered their enemies:
there was not one of them left.
*
The Psalms 136:15*
but overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea:
A
Angelos
Guest
About the world of Jinns: Many Muslims believe that another Islamic prophecy in the Koran concerns space exploration & rockets:
If you have power to pass beyond the zones of the heavens and the earth, then (go ahead and) pass beyond (them) ! But you will never be able to pass them except with a (tremendous) force. (Rahman : 33).
The final word of this verse is Sultan which admits variety of senses. Force is chosen here to suit the context. The other meanings used by some translators are: (God’s) sanction : Pickthall Power : Abdul Hameed Baqavi [Tamil]; (God’s) authority : Taiquddeen & Muhshi Khan, Yusuf Ali
Whether to send a satellite up the space, despatch instruments to explore Mars or to send man to moon - the rocket to carry them can lift off the surface of the earth only if it develops a force exceeding earth’s gravity. (islamicvoice.com/september.99/science.htm)
George, you think it is time to discuss another prophecy in Mohammed’s bible: take this one. Thanks to the skillful translations and laudable fantasies of many Muslim scholars, Koran will always have such miracles and/or predictions
Angelos N.
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George_Waters
Guest
So Muslims believe the Psalms are the literal word of God??? You have chosen to believe in them??? No? Then why are you arguing what we believe anyway especially when you have been told repeatedly what the Psalms are and that they are not historical accounts but songs of praise, thanksgiving, laments and intercessions to God?
Wait… why are we arguing about the Psalms when this thread is about Islamic Prophecy anyway?
At least the stars and the Jinn and puddles of mud are Islamic and more in keeping with this thread. Besides Booklover is just using your standards of judging the Bible to judge the Quran. You tell us what we should believe, we will tell you what you should believe.
hamba2han you are not going to change our minds, The evidence does not support your conclusions and is circumstantial at best. Not because we have choosen not to believe. Have you choosen to disbelieve in the Quran because there is no room for doubt that it says the sun sets in a muddy spring?
Can we get back to Islamic prophecy or do you just want this thread to be closed as it is far off topic?
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Valke2
Guest
Torah is God communicating to man. Psalms are man talking to God.
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Montalban
Guest
People have already told you about the poetic nature of Psalms
You want to interpret things literally but then of course you don’t believe the Bible, so in fact you’re offering a straw-man; determining how we should be interpreting the verses and arguing aginst that.
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hamba2han
Guest
I am confused here.
My understanding is that everything in the Bible is considered to be gospel truth by the faithful.
Are Christians and Jews now saying that the Psalms are NOT to be taken as part of this truth??
If it is not the Biblical truth, then what is it doing in the Bible then?
You know, when I first joined this forum, I had expected to help inform other members of the truth that is found in the Qur’an and hoped that it would persuade them to study it even further on their own.
My experiences on these boards however have since taught me to considerably lower my expectations in this regard.
It is now my hope that Christians and Jews would start believing in what is written in their own Bible with regard to events that are also told in the Qur’an.
The story of Pharaoh of the Exodus according to the Bible has a great deal to do with the prophecy found in the Qur’an.
Could this then be the real reason why Christians and Jews are so reluctant to accept the truth of how Pharaoh died as told in the Psalms i.e. that it gives credence to Islamic prophecy?
My understanding is that everything in the Bible is considered to be gospel truth by the faithful.
Are Christians and Jews now saying that the Psalms are NOT to be taken as part of this truth??
If it is not the Biblical truth, then what is it doing in the Bible then?
You know, when I first joined this forum, I had expected to help inform other members of the truth that is found in the Qur’an and hoped that it would persuade them to study it even further on their own.
My experiences on these boards however have since taught me to considerably lower my expectations in this regard.
It is now my hope that Christians and Jews would start believing in what is written in their own Bible with regard to events that are also told in the Qur’an.
The story of Pharaoh of the Exodus according to the Bible has a great deal to do with the prophecy found in the Qur’an.
Could this then be the real reason why Christians and Jews are so reluctant to accept the truth of how Pharaoh died as told in the Psalms i.e. that it gives credence to Islamic prophecy?
V
Valke2
Guest
You keep assuming that your interpetation of the psalm is correct and that another interpetation means that the person doesn’t believe it is true. Most Jews do in fact believe Phaorah drowned with his men. That doesn’t mean the scripture is clear on the matter.
H
hamba2han
Guest
The Psalms 106:11
And the waters covered their enemies:
there was not one of them left.
The Psalms 136:15
but overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea:
How many ways are there to correctly interpret these two verses together from the Psalms?
If you reach a fork in the road and you see more than one trusted signpost which points to the same direction, is there a good reason why any believer should head for the opposite direction instead?
And the waters covered their enemies:
there was not one of them left.
The Psalms 136:15
but overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea:
How many ways are there to correctly interpret these two verses together from the Psalms?
If you reach a fork in the road and you see more than one trusted signpost which points to the same direction, is there a good reason why any believer should head for the opposite direction instead?
V
Valke2
Guest
LATE EDIT
You keep assuming that your interpetation of the psalm is correct and that another interpetation means that the person doesn’t believe it is true. Most Jews do in fact believe Phaorah drowned with his men. As you’ve pointed out, there’s support for this in Exodus and Psalms, albeit poetic. Also, it would be unusual for him not to be leading his men, and he was observed doing so in Exodus.
However, the is often a blurry line between history and poetry in teh Bible. By the way, it is not just psalms that are poetic. Chapter 15 of Exodus that we are discussing is also poetic.
You keep assuming that your interpetation of the psalm is correct and that another interpetation means that the person doesn’t believe it is true. Most Jews do in fact believe Phaorah drowned with his men. As you’ve pointed out, there’s support for this in Exodus and Psalms, albeit poetic. Also, it would be unusual for him not to be leading his men, and he was observed doing so in Exodus.
However, the is often a blurry line between history and poetry in teh Bible. By the way, it is not just psalms that are poetic. Chapter 15 of Exodus that we are discussing is also poetic.
G
George_Waters
Guest
Ok, allow me to recap: Muslims believe the pharaoh of Exodus was drowned in the Red Sea and that moments before his death he accepted Islam. Allah made him (or his corpse) as sign for believers and the fact that his body was found centuries after everyone assumed it was lost in the sea is proof of this Islamic prophecy. Jews and Christians are contending that the pharaoh was not necessarily killed at that time, rejects the whole notion that the pharaoh converted to Islam and is more concerned with the message that God is all powerful and if you trust in Him He will deliever you from harm and that He keeps His word than about the specific fate of some pagan king. Am I right?
hamba2han, you reject our interpratation so please answer the following four questions and present your evidence that supports your claim.
hamba2han, you reject our interpratation so please answer the following four questions and present your evidence that supports your claim.
- Who was the pharaoh of Exodus?
- How did he die?
- When did he die?
- What happened to his body?
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