Islamic teaching questions

[toddy]

This is endless debate with an unauthentic Qurans which were written around 750AD or 300 years after Mohammad died to draw us to accept it as valid scripts.

[The Spirit of God revealed]
No words in the unauthentic Quran says “Allah is Almighty God” instead
Mohammad said “Verily, I am Allah, no god but I, so serve god through me”. Sura 20:4

Muslim/Islam knew Mohammad recited at Mecca
Have you thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat, the third, the other?[idols]
And later that night Mohammad admitted Satan casted on his tongue two phrases
_"These are the high flying cranes; verily their intercession is to be desired. _

So continue debate whenever Islam friends having the original version of Quran of Abu Kahr, who was a closest companion and counselor of Mohammad, with authentic verses maybe

In God I Trust.

 

[Niblo]

You refer to what, in the Islamic tradition, is known as the ‘Story of the Cranes’.

It is reported in several early histories of Islam that when the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was revealing Al-Najm to the Quraysh - a pagan tribe - Satan waited until he had come to the end of verse 20; and then whispered to him two other verses; verses that gave their deities (Al-Lāt, al-ʿUzzā, and Manāt) an exalted status: ‘These are the high-flying ones, whose intercession is to be hoped for!’ It is said that the Quraysh were so delighted to hear their deities praised by Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta’āla) that, as a gesture of good-will and friendship, they all bowed down with the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam).

One need only examine verses 19-23 (with the so-called ‘satanic verses’ shown in capitals) to see the folly of these reports:

‘(Disbelievers), consider al-Lāt and al-ʿUzzā, and the third one, Manāt. THESE ARE THE HIGH-FLYING ONES, WHOSE INTERCESSION IS TO BE HOPED FOR! …….these are nothing but names you have invented yourselves, you and your forefathers. God has sent no authority for them. These people merely follow guess-work and the whims of their souls, even though guidance has come to them from their Lord.’ (Al-Najm: 19-23).

There is no sense here. In one ‘breath’ (so to speak) Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta’āla) is praising the pagan deities; and in the next is denying their very reality; stating that they are nothing but inventions; the result of mere guesswork and pious whim!

It is difficult to see how the Quraysh (bitter enemies, and persecutors, of the Muslims) could see in Al-Najm: 19-23 (even with the ‘satanic verses’) any occasion for rejoicing!

Al-Najm was the twenty-third Surah to be revealed. This is the third:

‘You (Prophet), enfolded in your cloak! Stay up throughout the night, all but a small part of it, half, or a little less, or a little more; recite the Qur an slowly and distinctly: We shall send a momentous message down to you. Night prayer makes a deeper impression and sharpens words - you are kept busy for long periods of the day - so celebrate the name of your Lord and devote yourself wholeheartedly to Him. He is Lord of the east and west, there is no god but Him, so take Him as your Protector.’ (Al-Muzzammil: 1-9).

Even if Satan had whispered in Muhammad’s ear, the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) would have recognised the lie; and there is no way he would have repeated it!

Where did the myth of the ‘Satanic Verses’ originate? No one knows. But this does not change myth into reality.

Have a great day, and very best regards.

 

[Niblo]

s it true that the Islamic teaching that Mohammad being the final prophet means that humans will hear nothing further from God in this world? I am trying to ascertain whether this is a message of Islam. I have never heard that they believe in something like the Holy Spirit, so without a prophet there would be no communication with God. Is that right? So the Koran would contain the final messages for earthly humanity, forever, according to Islam? If this is correct, then would it be logical to say that anything new, done or taught, by Islamic people, after the Koran was written, cannot have been commanded by God himself. For ever?

Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is regarded by Muslims to be the last of the prophets. This does not mean that humankind will hear nothing further from God in this world. God speaks to each and every one of us through His scriptures; through the words, and deeds, of righteous folk; through prayer – both public and private; through scholars and pastors; through nature itself, if we but listen. Yes, we have to reflect on what others say to us (not all are wise, after all!); but to say that God is silent is a mistake.

Among Muslims, the Holy Spirit (al-Rūḥ al-Quddus) is generally accepted to be Gabriel (Jibrayil).

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

It should be noted that the Arabic language at the time of Muhammad was, in its higher forms, an oral language. There are poems from the pre-Islamic period that were passed along for generations. Because the Qur’an is in the same language as the poetry, with rhyme but not meter, Muhammad was called a “crazed poet” (see At-Tur, 30-32). In other words, he was called a poet because he used the language of poetry, an elevated form of Arabic not used in daily life.

It should also be noted that written Arabic at the time of Muhammad was primarily confined to trade documents, bills of lading, etc. The rudimentary written form had to be speedily adapted to record and preserve the Qur’an.

In the years following Muhammad’s death, grammarians studied both the Qur’an itself and the pre-Islamic poetry to establish the grammar of the Arabic language. It is worth noting that, while stylistically different, the language of tomorrow’s Arabic newspaper is the same language as the Qur’an.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

You are misinformed the Gospels do not reveal the Holy Spirit came in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit descended from heaven Gracefully “like a dove, descending upon” Jesus.

Jesus does not baptize you like a dove, or like an angel Gabriel who you call the holy spirit. Only God can baptize with His Holy Spirit and Fire. Please see below

Mark 1:8 * I have baptized you with water; he will baptize you with the holy Spirit.”
9 It happened in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized in the Jordan by John.
10
On coming up out of the water he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit, like a dove, descending upon him.*
11 And a voice came from the heavens, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.”

Here is a second witness

Luke 3:16

• John answered them all, saying,l “I am baptizing you with water, but one mightier than I is coming. I am not worthy to loosen the thongs of his sandals. He will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

Angel Gabriel is Holy Spirit and not God. Qur’an mentions that. Why you do contort the word? There is no a true Trinity! Trinity is false with all forms. It is your conjecture but not a revealed information.

Are you going to answer my quesiton?

“Can you reveal who was it that declared a false trinity revealed in the Quran?”
Was it A. Allah, B. Muhammad C. an angel named Gabriel.

 

[Niblo]

Are you going to answer my quesiton?

“Can you reveal who was it that declared a false trinity revealed in the Quran?”
Was it A. Allah, B. Muhammad C. an angel named Gabriel.

Are you referring to these verses:

‘When Allāh says: ‘Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to people, ‘‘Take me and my mother as two gods alongside God’’?’ he will say: ‘‘May You be exalted! I would never say what I had no right to say - if I had said such a thing You would have known it: You know all that is within me, though I do not know what is within You, You alone have full knowledge of things unseen - I told them only what You commanded me to: ‘‘Worship Allāh, my Lord and your Lord.’’ I was a witness over them during my time among them. Ever since You took my soul, You alone have been the watcher over them: You are witness to all things and if You punish them, they are Your servants; if You forgive them, You are the Almighty, the Wise.’’’ (Al-Ma’ida: 16-118).

These verses are prophetic. The conversation between the Exalted and Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām); takes place on the Day of Judgement; when the prophets – in common with everyone else – are asked give an account of their lives. Yeshua is asked to account for the fact that certain Christians have exaggerated his spiritual station, and attributed divinity to him. Yeshua denies ever giving permission for this.

Seyyed Hossein Nasr writes:

‘Jesus indicates that he bears no responsibility for such exaggerations of his or his mother’s status, but rather than directly denying that he commanded his followers to take him and his mother as gods apart from God, he demonstrates an attitude of proper comportment before God by offering a response of perfect humility, saying he had no right to utter such a thing.’ (‘The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary’).

Referring to Mary, Nasr writes:

‘Although traditional Christian doctrine does not view Mary as a member of the Trinity, the Quran may here be referring to certain Orthodox and Roman Catholic doctrines regarding Mary, for example, her identification as Theotokos, or ‘‘Mother of God,’’ which is a doctrinal extension of the Christian belief in Christ’s divinity…the Quran may be criticizing not Christian doctrinal formulations concerning Mary, but rather popular Christian exaggerations of Mary’s status that approach divinization.’

 

[Niblo]

re you going to answer my quesiton?

“Can you reveal who was it that declared a false trinity revealed in the Quran?”
Was it A. Allah, B. Muhammad C. an angel named Gabriel.

Geoffrey Parrinder writes:

'In Arabia there were in the early centuries some (called Antidicomarianites) who protested against the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary. But there were cults, some semi-pagan, which exalted Mary in unseemly fashion. The Collyridians, an Arabian female sect of the fourth century, offered to Mary cakes of bread (collyrida), as they had done to the great earth mother in pagan times.

‘Epiphanius, who opposed this heresy, said that the Trinity must be worshipped, but Mary must not be worshipped. The Qur’ān may well be directed against this heresy. It gives its support against Mariolatry, while at the same time it recognizes the importance of Mary as the vessel chosen by God for the birth of his Christ.’ (‘Jesus in the Qur’an - Makers of the Muslim World’).

Louay Fatoohi writes:

‘I should stress another important point. A common mistake in studying the Qur’an’s discussion of Christian beliefs, including the doctrine of the Trinity, is to suggest that the Qur’an talks about the New Testament only, or simply misunderstands it. The Qur’an rejects particular Christian beliefs, regardless of whether they are found in the New Testament or not. For instance, the Qur’an rejects the worship of Mary, even though Mariolatry is not a New Testament doctrine. The New Testament does not have any special scriptural value outside mainstream Christianity, which was itself defined in the first few centuries after Jesus. The Qur’an is interested in clarifying its positions on doctrines that Christians hold, regardless of the origin of those doctrines. The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger before whom similar messengers passed away, and his mother was a saintly woman.’ (‘Jesus The Muslim Prophet: History Speaks of a Human Messiah Not a Divine Christ’).

 

[Niblo]

No. Just no. That’s pretty hilarious though.

Concerning Al-Nisa: 155-158: ‘And so for breaking their pledge, for rejecting Allāh’s revelations, for unjustly killing their prophets, for saying: “Our minds are closed” - No! Allāh has sealed them in their disbelief, so they believe only a little - and because they disbelieved and uttered a terrible slander against Mary, and said: “We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allāh.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them; those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him - Allāh raised him up to Himself. Allāh is almighty and wise.’

I’ve spent a while learning (and in some cases re-learning) what the Qur’an and others have to say about the crucifixion. I’ve read extracts of the tafâsîr (interpretations of the Qur’an) of Wahb Ibn Munabbih; Ṭabarî; Makkî Ibn Abi Ṭâlib; Qurṭubî; Ibn Kathîr; Suyûṭî; Ṭabâṭabâ’î ; and Jazâ’irî. All of them (apart from Ṭabâṭabâ’î) are saying that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) was not crucified, but that another was made to resemble him - and to take his place. It is not possible to justify, from Al-Nisa: 155-158, any notion of a substitute.

The words: ‘it was made to appear like that to them’ could well be a reference to the Gospel stories themselves, stories that appeared decades after the events they describe; and which influenced the beliefs of so many, both Jew and Gentile. This, of course, is just an opinion. What is a fact is that the Qur’an does not claim that Yeshua was substituted by another.

 

[Niblo]

doesn’t answer the question.

acts is true because it is part of the gospel. the Koran declared the gospel was sent by Allah in the same verse he confirms the Koran was sent down.

He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. (3:3)

The Arabic word ‘ʾInjīl’ is translated ‘Gospel’ by those writing in English. However, in the Qur’an the word is always in the singular, and is never used to describe the four Gospels of the New Testament.

There is no doubt that the New Testament Gospels were written after the lifetime of Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām); therefore, they cannot be the ‘ʾInjīl’ mentioned in the Qur’an. The Exalted says: ‘We sent Yeshua, son of Mary, in their footsteps, to confirm the Torah that had been sent before him: We gave him the Gospel ‘ʾInjīl’ with guidance, light, and confirmation of the Torah already revealed - a guide and lesson for those who take heed of Allāh.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 46).

It is quite clear from this verse that Yeshua was given the ʾInjīl (Gospel) complete; how else could it have been ‘a guidance, light and confirmation of the Torah’?

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

mhmtas63; makes the confusing claim that the Quran is Word of Allah, yet it is claimed that Gabriel a holy spirit gave Muhammad the Quran, and it was Muhammad who uttered the Quran.

So which one of the above uttered the false claim of a trinity that does not exist from the Quran? It is supposed that the verse you mentioned from the Quran, is the typical one, Muslims will use to try and discredit the True Trinity. My position is, Muslims pose a false argument against the True Trinity, because the Quran never rejects the True Trinity. So the Muslim argues that the Quran rejects all forms of Trinity, which sounds like an argument invented by Muslims, and does not come from the Quran.

When you place the Quranic verse in question here, from a commentary as prophetic. The prophetic verse position now becomes a standard defense position by Muslims, when the Quran is called to the floor to defend itself on TRUTH, Muslims will move the goal post, and claim foul, because of a language barrier and lack of understanding of the Quran, which is getting old very fast.

As far as Mary is concerned. The Catholic Church never places Mary in a divine position. Nasr records an error that makes the false claim against Theotokos as “Mary’s status that approach divinization”.

When the term “Theotokos” is used to defend against heretics who were making false claims against the two natures of Christ. Theotokos is never used believe or elevate Mary to the divine.

The Quran adds insult to injury on Christian belief’s, when the Quran identifies a heretical Jesus that never existed in Christianity. True recorded history identifies a fully human and fully divine Jesus Christ long before the Quran enters history. Secondly the only human Jesus heretics invented were long denounced and declared heretical long before Muhammad was ever born.

The Quran records a denounced heretical (only human) Jesus and a heretical trinity that never exists. And uses these past defeated heresies against divine revelation that has not changed. Yet, the Quran comes along too late in history to make the false claim that these divine revelations of Jesus and the Trinity are something new or has changed through out Christian history.

When history records the (Catholic) Church which is the pillar and bulwark of Truth, protecting and defending Jesus two natures and the Trinity, they are never changed. Thus Theotokos is one of those term which defends Jesus Christ divinity against heretics who denied Jesus divine nature.

Peace be with you

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

The Qur’an is interested in clarifying its positions on doctrines that Christians hold, regardless of the origin of those doctrines. The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger before whom similar messengers passed away, and his mother was a saintly woman.’ (‘Jesus The Muslim Prophet: History Speaks of a Human Messiah Not a Divine Christ’).

The Quran has no business trying to discredit or clarify Christian belief’s when the Quran never correctly defines True Christian belief’s to clarify or correct, this has been my position during this dialogue.

Why would the Quran attack false Christian belief’s which, True Christians do not believe in, in order to gain converts to Islam?

If the Quran were truly the Word of God, why would God need to defend Truth by clarifying Christian heresies, that no True Christians ever believed in anyway?

The Quran isolates itself in history by trying to clarify or deny Christian belief’s that do not exist. New Commentaries to the Quran, begin using True Christian terminology, but again, these commentaries never clarify the correct doctrine such as Theotokos, and deny a Theotokos that is never believed in by True Christians.

Peace be with you

 

[mhmtas63]

mhmtas63; makes the confusing claim that the Quran is Word of Allah, yet it is claimed that Gabriel a holy spirit gave Muhammad the Quran, and it was Muhammad who uttered the Quran.

Qur’an is direct word of God. Gabriel is just an agent who carry revelation to prophets.

You think “True Trinity!” is consist of Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit. I answered that Qur’an (God) say it is not true. I repeated that for some times and I do again. But do not distort!

80- Nor could he order you to take the angels and prophets as lords. Would he order you to disbelief after you had been Muslims? Ali-Imran

Holy Spirit is angel Gabriel

Jesus is prophet.

Is there any need to repeat? Qur’an or God reject “True Trinity!” Could you understand?

Doctrines are your conjectures which never were revealed. Pagans merely were hard in their belief as you are. It took many yaers to correct. There is no with a three personalty God. God is one and has one personality who is God. There is no three gods! You think your belief is true so it will save you but perhaps not. I say perhaps because God in Qur’an say " I will judge you for your arguments" Father is unique God as Jesus declared.

Qur’an also mention Marry because Marry is regarded to be mother of God. Perhaps that is metaphorical but some Christians also attributed Marry divine attributes and they pray Marry for salvation. Qur’an also reject that. And also Qur’an notice to not take self inclination as Lord.

In short Qur’an reject all kinds of Shirk including “True Trinity!”

 

[mhmtas63]

The Quran has no business trying to discredit or clarify Christian belief’s when the Quran never correctly defines True Christian belief’s to clarify or correct, this has been my position during this dialogue.

Why would the Quran attack false Christian belief’s which, True Christians do not believe in, in order to gain converts to Islam?

If the Quran were truly the Word of God, why would God need to defend Truth by clarifying Christian heresies, that no True Christians ever believed in anyway?

The Quran isolates itself in history by trying to clarify or deny Christian belief’s that do not exist. New Commentaries to the Quran, begin using True Christian terminology, but again, these commentaries never clarify the correct doctrine such as Theotokos, and deny a Theotokos that is never believed in by True Christians.

Peace be with you

Because salvation is first through “faith”. If one has a faith that believing in one God and not assosiating any deity with God. The good deeds are something interest in religion and supporting faith. So Christianic wordships is to make people good and more moraly and support faith.

I just sincerely ask: The pure revelation is valid or some doctrines which were established by people and not revealed and are supporting by philosophical arguments and mysteries?

Ofcourse custom is importand but Qur’an warn!

170-And when it is said to them, “Follow what Allah has revealed,” they say, “Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing.” Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided? Al-Baqarah(2)

104- And when it is said to them, “Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger,” they say, “Sufficient for us is that upon which we found our fathers.” Even though their fathers knew nothing, nor were they guided? Al-Maidah(5)

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

Qur’an is direct word of God. Gabriel is just an agent who carry revelation to prophets.

You think “True Trinity!” is consist of Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit. I answered that Qur’an (God) say it is not true. I repeated that for some times and I do again. But do not distort!

Once again, Catholics believe that the Qur’an is hogwash. The more you keep telling us that the Qur’an denies the Trinity, the more I think that that’s your only reason to say it isn’t true.

 

[mhmtas63]

Once again, Catholics believe that the Qur’an is hogwash.

Insulting is not a virtuous answer. You can do better because you believe in a Merciful and loving God. God and Jesus who were very humane do not confirm such deed.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

What, I can’t call a lie what it is?

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

I just sincerely ask: The pure revelation is valid or some doctrines which were established by people and not revealed and are supporting by philosophical arguments and mysteries?

You appear to be forcing man made arguments into the Quran that are not there.
For example; Divine revelation revealed by Jesus Christ such as the virgin birth, passion, crucifixion, resurrection of Jesus Christ are never invented doctrines of the Catholic Church. These divine revelations become doctrine in order to separate the sheep from wolves. In other words, when ever one of these divine revelations of God comes under attack, by changing or denying one of them. The Church declares divine revelation a doctrine which can never change.
The doctrine protects (becomes the bulwark of Truth) divine revelation from ever being changed or distorted.
Your false claim that Quran accuses " some doctrines which were established by people and not revealed" or that someone in history changed divine revelation, stems from an argument made by men who do not understand how the Church protects divine revelation with a doctrine.
Your Quran argument will not and does not stand up to the scrutiny established by history and Church councils. When it was Church councils that defended divine revelation from ever changing. When divine revelation came under attack by heretics and heresies, the Church kept divine revelation fully intact, by declaring them doctrine and excommunicating heretics who denied them or tried to falsify divine revelation.
Thus, the Quran cannot pass the scrutiny test of divine revelation by Jesus Christ, recorded history, and the Church councils protecting God’s divine revelation from changing. When the Quran makes the false claim that “some people” changed divine revelation.
As far as a Mystery of God is concerned. A Mystery of God is a divine revelation to our humanity that cannot be exhausted by a human definition. A Mystery according to your argument is something unknown. Your mystery definition again misses the mark of what True Christians believe to be a Mystery of God.
Peace be with you

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

In short Qur’an reject all kinds of Shirk including “True Trinity!”

The Quran never denies the True Trinity because the Quran never clarifies the True Trinity. You deny what you do not know and understand about the True Trinity.
You pretend to object to a trinity consisting of three god’s. I agree with you, I also reject such a heretical trinity, because no Catholic Christian believes the Trinity to be three different god’s. The Trinity is ONE GOD and no other. What the Church declares as Persons of the Trinity is God making His Presence known to our humanity and creation. Yet, you falsely believe that the Presence of God are three different god’s. If this is what your Quran is teaching you about a false trinity, then I cannot believe anything from the Quran.
Peace be with you

 

[mhmtas63]

For example; Divine revelation revealed by Jesus Christ such as the virgin birth, passion, crucifixion, resurrection of Jesus Christ are never invented doctrines of the Catholic Church.

I will answer just for “passion”. Jesus never wished such thing:

22:41	And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
22:42	_**	Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
22:43	And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
22:44	And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

As you see Jesus was informed about “crucifixion” so Jesus prayed Father to save Him. If that were by Jesus’s wish so Jesus would not pray for His salvation. And Father(God) accepted Jesus’s request and saved Jesus from crucifixion in a miraculous way which we always argue. If that happened by way Qur’an explain(certainly it happened vy that way because God say in Qur’an) then all other doctrines are invalid. Allah know the best.

Another issue in verse 41 it is said that Jesus “kneeled down”. That is Sajdah which Muslims do during pray and worship. Why do Christians not worship in that way?